half pass

[oldbag]

[QUOTE=BaroquePony;3383338]
If you can do the shoulder-in correctly then you can do the half-pass.

All of the aids are basically the same, but you switch from using the inside leg on the girth as your predominant aid for the shoulder-in to using your outside leg behind the girth as the predominant aid for the half-pass.

You can do a zig zag down the centerline using shoulder-in and switch to half-pass and back again.[/QUOTE]

Oh no you can’t!
Shoulder in is much easier, bent away from direction of movement. Nothing like half pass.

The aids for all movements with bend are the same ie inside leg(into outside rein) on the girth outside leg behind girth.

The outside leg should never be the dominant aid. Always forward from the inside one.

[merrygoround]

[QUOTE=europa;3383186]
can someone give a good sequence of training events for half pass[/QUOTE]

Aren’t you glad you asked. :lol: :lol: :lol:

[merrygoround]

[QUOTE=oldbag;3384646]
Oh no you can’t!
Shoulder in is much easier, bent away from direction of movement. Nothing like half pass.

The aids for all movements with bend are the same ie inside leg(into outside rein) on the girth outside leg behind girth.

The outside leg should never be the dominant aid. Always forward from the inside one.[/QUOTE]

Agreed, it is much harder to go from S/I, S/F,to H/P. It can be done, but involves a directional change.

[Trixie_s_mom]

this has been interesting reading to say the least.

let’s start another thread and disect something else!

[BaroquePony]

Originally posted by Dressage Art:

If all legs are crossing - it’s either Half Pass or Leg Yield. Half Pass has inside bend. Leg Yield has no bend, but has outside flexion. The movement that you are describing doesn’t exist: has counter bend and both front and hind legs crossing. Either you invented a new movement or it’s a not correctly aligned Leg Yield.

I actually didn’t invent the “new move”, but I did learn the concept of such a movement from one of the 4-H leaders that I used to work with and he was a western 4-H Championship reining rider and trainer and it was called a “side pass”.

The first time I was introduced to the move, I had a heart failure.

The more I learned about good western riding and training, the more I saw the direct connection going all the way back to the Spaniards and some of it going back to the Spanish Riding School.

One of the things I like about the move is its lack of perfect definition. You can do it with forward movement or without.

I teach my horses to do it in the barn. It is a great addition to ground manners.

I have worked with German riders that do it when they are schooling and at least one of the BN instructors I have worked with used it also. They do get a bit more specific than the western version, but it is essentially the same thing.

Some horse are so athletic and flexible naturally that it is far more difficult to get a leg-yield where the body of the horse is straight than it is to get a leg-yield where the bend is present. On a horse like that, I am not going to ask the horse to straighten his body, especially when I’ve been asking for bending in every other thing that I’ve been schooling.

Originally posted by Dressage Art:

If both front and hind legs are crossing - this is no longer a shoulder-in according to the rules and that “move” will score a 4 or lower.

I never said I would ride it in a test.

There are a lot of movements and exercises that aren’t actually defined per se. They are hybrid movements that come into play all of the time as the horse and rider develop.

There are a lot of excersices for both horse and rider that go slightlyy beyond the “definitions” of correct that are a good thing to learn and practice, otherwise certain things will never be understood or felt by either horse or rider and the correct movements may never be fully developed.

[WindsongEq]

[QUOTE=ideayoda;3384045]
Interestingly half pass is call traversal. And the rules say: i. Half-pass. This movement is a variation of travers, executed on the diagonal insteadof along the wall. The horse should be slightly bent round the inside leg of the rider in orderto give more freedom and mobility to the shoulders, thus adding ease and grace to themovement although the forehand should be slightly in advance of the quarters. The outside legs pass and cross in front of the inside legs. The horse is looking in the directionin which he is moving. He should maintain the same cadence and balance throughout thewhole movement. In order to give more freedom and mobility to the shoulders, whichadds to the ease and grace of the movement, it is of great importance, not only that thehorse is correctly bent and thereby prevented from protruding his inside shoulder, but also to maintain the impulsion, especially the engagement of the inside hind leg.

If one puts poles on the diagonal line and rides travers along it, they will be doing half pass. The long diagonal with the line of medium tests, and the short diagonal that of fei[/QUOTE]
Interesting thread! I have always been taught half pass as Idea yoda and DA describe by EVERY trainer I have ridden with…STRAIGHT FROM THE RULEBOOK I think some of the comments on this thread have a bit more to do with corrections that riders have been taught to improve their half pass than what the aids for the actual half pass are…
Common mistakes for riders learning/perfecting the half pass are to put their weight on the outside of the horse (it somehow makes them feel as if it makes their outer leg stronger) that particular rider must sit to the inside so their weight is centered.
For the rider that loses the bend or the horse leads with the haunch, going from half pass to shoulder in on the quarter line, then continue the half pass will re-initiate the bend and/or correct positioning.
For the rider that loses the shoulders and the horse “falls sideways” into the half pass, leg yielding back towards the wall that you just came from gets the horse off the inside leg and connected back into the outer rein, then start again a half pass.
For those questioning the concept of travers on the diagonal line being a correct half pass, watch the half pass being performed by a student at the end of that diagonal line rather than directly from “A” or “C”. It is perceptual.
For those questioning the concept of starting the half pass with a step of shoulder fore, try zig zags in front of a mirror, the horses’ shoulders are narrower than their hips and the shoulders must be positioned correctly to the inside a step before you start the new half pass.

[MyReality]

I don’t get the haunches in part. I thought half pass is from SI on diagonal line… shoulders leading. I see a couple of people have tried to explain the role of haunches in, but I still don’t get it.

[ideayoda]

DA I would refer you to the rules (about crossing):

f. Shoulder-in. This exercise is performed in collected trot. The horse is ridden with a
slight but uniform bend around the inside leg of the rider maintaining cadence at a constant
angle of approx. 30 degrees. The horse’s inside foreleg passes and crosses in front
of the outside foreleg; the inside hind leg steps forward under the horse’s body weight followingthe same track of the outside foreleg, with the lowering of the inside hip. The horse is bent away from the direction in which it is moving. (see Fig. 1). If the shoulder-in is performed on the long side or on the center line, the horse should be straightened after the shoulder-in, before going into the corner. If the movement that follows the shoulder-in isa circle at any point, or a turn left or right at any point other than the four corners, the horse should not be straightened.

g. Travers. This exercise can be performed in collected trot or collected canter. The horse
is slightly bent round the inside leg of the rider but with a greater degree of bend than in
shoulder-in. A constant angle of approximately 35 degrees should be shown, from the
front and from behind one sees four tracks. The forehand remains on the track and the
quarters are moved inwards. THE HORSES OUTSIDE LEGS PASS AND CROSS IN FRONT OF THE INSIDE LEGS. The horse is bent in the direction in which it is moving. To start the travers, the quarters must leave the track or, after a corner or circle, are not brought back onto the track. At the end of the travers, the quarters are brought back on the track without any counter-flexion of the poll/neck as one would finish a circle. (see Fig. 2).

h. Renvers. This is the inverse movement in relation to travers, with the tail instead of the
head to the wall. Otherwise the same principles and conditions are applicable as at the
travers (see Fig. 3).

i. Half-pass. This movement is a variation of travers, executed on the diagonal instead
of along the wall. The horse should be slightly bent round the inside leg of the rider in orderto give more freedom and mobility to the shoulders, thus adding ease and grace to the movement although the forehand should be slightly in advance of the quarters. The outside legs pass and cross in front of the inside legs. The horse is looking in the direction
in which he is moving. He should maintain the same cadence and balance throughout the
whole movement. In order to give more freedom and mobility to the shoulders, which
adds to the ease and grace of the movement, it is of great importance, not only that the
horse is correctly bent and thereby prevented from protruding his inside shoulder, but
also to maintain the impulsion, especially the engagement of the inside hind leg (see fig.
4).

I understand what you are trying to convey about the lines of travel concept, but that is different that what crosses (t/r/hp/ly) and where the hindleg is placed in s.i.).

[purplnurpl]

@ideayoda;3384045

[B]thus adding ease and grace to themovement although the forehand should be slightly in advance of the quarters.

To develop think that s.i. is the first step onto a circle, [/B]

Oui, I lied. I had to check back in just because it was the top thread on the D board.

I think you can find these points QUOTED FROM THE DEFINITION in my post.

also, if you are using your outside leg to make your horse move to the inside you are pushing.
and, if you LOOK to the inside, your weight goes to the inside. Some of us aren’t perfect enough to stay put in our seat. You know the saying, think about leaning backward and you will finally be sitting straight? Ya. that one.

thanks.
nof said.

[Phyxius]

http://www.usef.org/documents/ruleBook/2008/08-DR.pdf
[i]USEF Rulebook - DR 111 (page 7) i - Half Pass -

This movement is a variation of travers, executed on the diagonal instead
of along the wall. The horse should be slightly bent round the inside leg of the rider in order to give more freedom and mobility to the shoulders, thus adding ease and grace to the movement although the forehand should be slightly in advance of the quarters. The outside legs pass and cross in front of the inside legs. The horse is looking in the direction in which he is moving. He should maintain the same cadence and balance throughout the whole movement. In order to give more freedom and mobility to the shoulders, which adds to the ease and grace of the movement, it is of great importance, not only that the horse is correctly bent and thereby prevented from protruding his inside shoulder, but also to maintain the impulsion, especially the engagement of the inside hind leg.
[/i]

[purplnurpl]

@Dressage Art;3383934

Some people think that straight Leg Yield is a Half Pass - it is not. If horse doesn’t have BEND in his body, it is not a Half Pass, no matter how much leg crossing you get.

That and, Leg Yield the horse should always be straight. with very slight, very very slight bend in the poll.

I learned that when the Irish Olympic Eventing coach started yelling at me.
I said…“wait,what???”

[Phyxius]

[QUOTE=purplnurpl;3385262]

and, if you LOOK to the inside, your weight goes to the inside. Some of us aren’t perfect enough to stay put in our seat.[/QUOTE]

It’s actually the opposite. I have a lot of trouble with my right side, keeping the weight to the right, this is very obviously when I’m cantering to the right or doing lateral work that needs weight to the right. If you look in the OPPOSITE direction you’ll weight the “correct” side.

Sitting in your chair right now, turn your head to the left…what did your body do? Now, turn your head to the right…what happened? When I was first told this I thought my trainer was nuts. But it works, every time I start to get out of position, I just look left to get my self straightened back out.

[Gucci_Cowgirl]

I find the opposite, Phyxius.

I look to the right, even sitting in a chair, and I feel my right seat bone get heavier. Same to the left…

I think people’s bodies are all made differently, and things are not going to work all the same for every person

[purplnurpl]

[QUOTE=Phyxius;3385289]

Sitting in your chair right now, turn your head to the left…what did your body do? Now, turn your head to the right…what happened? [/QUOTE]

lol. I’m an eventer.
When I looked to the right, my body and my horse turned and jumped the skinny that was set at a 70* 4 stride line off of the 4’ down bank. Darn good thing my horse knows to follow my body weight or I would have had a run out…going at 500mpm.

{wink}

[Kaeleer]

I have a headache!!

[grayarabpony]

Me too. Now WHAT is supposed to happen when I turn my head?

Hopefully the horse will halfpass in that direction. lol

[Valentina_32926]

@Phyxius;3383305

A half pass is basically a haunches in on a diagonal line.

If you have mirrors they can be very helpful to check your horse’s angle/position. I tend to bring the haunches too much and get yelled at.

After positioning the horse as stated above step into the stirrup in the direction you want to go - horse will follow as long as you’re not blocking horse from doing so.

[merrygoround]

[QUOTE=MyReality;3385202]
I don’t get the haunches in part. I thought half pass is from SI on diagonal line… shoulders leading. I see a couple of people have tried to explain the role of haunches in, but I still don’t get it.[/QUOTE]

Until you are strong in H/I, and understand the concept of moving forward into the inside bend, you cannot do H/P. In H/I, you are moving forward, with the hips bend around your inside driving leg, from there it is an easy conceppt to move sideways into the inside leg.

In S/I you are moving away from the inside bending leg.

[BaroquePony]

Here is a link to a photograph that I scanned from Training Hunters, Jumpers and Hacks, by Brig. Gen. Harry D. Chamberlin. It shows the shoulder-in being done with both sets of legs crossing over, AND there is a text description verifiying it. It is a defined excercise.

http://black-forest-design.net/SI-Hacks-600-N1.gif

[Gucci_Cowgirl]

The OP’s question was about HP, why do we need to see justification for an incorrect SI exercise?

If you use it, it’s your choice. It has no place in my training program, or that of my coaches.

Don’t see what it has to do with HP though.

Also, the title of the book clearly says it’s for training “Hunters, Jumpers, and Hacks” not dressage horses…we are talking about dressage here!