Well, technically it is dressage and many dressage horses don’t go as forward as they should.
Not all dressage is used to go to Gran Prix dressage levels. A great deal of it is used in eventing and other disciplines, like jumping and even western reining.
There actually seems to be a fair amount of “dessage” that isn’t exactly aimed in a very good direction either.
Wow…I think a lot of people made half pass very complicated. Hell now I’m confused. To the OP…I suggest getting a good book like Riding Logic. And taking a good lesson.
I also think how you ride it depends quite a bit on the horse you are sitting on at that moment…because there is more than one aid being used and what aid is predominate depends on what the horse is doing at that moment.
But I usually do start from a shoulder in (or 10m circle to SI) and usually either work to or from the quarter line…and I try and remember that the horse is really stretching across their outside more than they have been asked before so it isn’t easy, it takes time to develop—so start at the walk and don’t ask for more than a few steps at a time in the begining.
My Reality:
Bravo for asking a straight forward question! (Pun intended).
First, let’s call haunches-in a travers, so it is a movement that doesn’t have a reference to position of body parts.
The idea of HP being a travers on a diagonal is supposed to make it easier to ride, not more complicated, like so many here are making it.
Track left. Proceed onto a long diagonal, FXH, straight and normal like in training level, but horse should be able to do some degree of collection. Now pretend there is a wall on the right side of the horse that goes from F to H. Apply the aids for travers left. Keep looking at H, keep the horse’s head pointed to H, keep thinking of the imaginary wall on your right side, keep doing travers. To the observer at C, you are doing HP! You shouldn’t even think about HP. If you think of HP too much, you will worry about whether you can get the horse to move sideways, and push too much with the outside leg, and get too much angle so the observer at C will see the haunches closer to the long-side wall than the shoulder. As long as you keep the horse’s head pointed at H, you will get there without pushing. If things go awry, release the traver aids, go straight towards H again and start over.
Eventually, in a show where you want the first step off of the track at F to be in half-pass, you aren’t allowed the luxury of time to proceed straight on the diagonal before applying travers aids. But don’t worry about that until you can do travers as described above easily and your brain is comfortable with the spacial geometry of the thing.
[QUOTE=Phyxius;3385289]
It’s actually the opposite. I have a lot of trouble with my right side, keeping the weight to the right, this is very obviously when I’m cantering to the right or doing lateral work that needs weight to the right. If you look in the OPPOSITE direction you’ll weight the “correct” side.
Sitting in your chair right now, turn your head to the left…what did your body do? Now, turn your head to the right…what happened? When I was first told this I thought my trainer was nuts. But it works, every time I start to get out of position, I just look left to get my self straightened back out.[/QUOTE]
Good grief, child!! Look where you are going!!! I ain’t gettin in a car with you drivin’. :lol: :lol:
Looking where you are going is a cardinal rule in riding, how else will the horse know what you are up to? :lol:
Originally posted by merrygoround:
Looking where you are going is a cardinal rule in riding, how else will the horse know what you are up to? :lol:
mental telepathy and the rule book :lol:
I had a horse that had been with an eventing trainer for awhile before I got him. If you turned your head only, doing nothing else, no change of weight, no rein, no leg, nothing-- after about two strides he would turn in that direction.
I tested this over and over, making sure I was doing nothing else with my body but turn my head at the neck and look right or left. I tried with one seatbone weighted and then the other, to rule out a weight or balance change; one leg weighted and then the other in two point. It was the head turn that made him change direction, not the weight/balance cue.
I believe they can learn a head turn as a visual cue. I know they can see it! I think he had learned it from the eventer who was a top trainer–whether the trainer had deliberately taught that or not I don’t know, but this horse knew that when the rider looked left, in a stride or two he should turn left.
Just food for thought. I think horses pick up on things we have no idea they are noticing, and don’t notice things we believe we are telling them. 
What does this have to do with half passes?
I am also still waiting for you to show me where I wrote “cross both hands over the withers” for a shoulder in…
Originally posted by MelantheLLC:
I think horses pick up on things we have no idea they are noticing, and don’t notice things we believe we are telling them.
I agree with this totally. You have to really be paying attention to some of them to understand where they are going … and I don’t mean “physical direction”. They can be soooo willing to please that they can get ahead of you.
There is no bend in a LY. The horse is supposed to be flexed to the inside, but not bent (anywhere, including the neck).
Of course he trained it. Not specifically but when he wanted to go right he sure didn’t keep his hands on the key board and look right and see if his left ass made the swivel chair move.
Rule #1. Look where you are going.
lol.
If you are looking right and your left seat bone is initiated then you are not keeping your rib case open. Yet collapsing on the inside.
ooops, the biomechanist in me. shhhhh. my bad.
oh crap. now we are going to start talking about Anatomy of Dressage and the Spiral seat.
Swim Away Foo-Go Fish Swim Away!! Charrrrllliiieeee!
Oh no purplnurpl you’ve been sucked into one of those endless dressage spirals.
I can just see people trying out these moves on their swivel chairs. :lol:
[QUOTE=BaroquePony;3385874]
Here is a link to a photograph that I scanned from Training Hunters, Jumpers and Hacks, by Brig. Gen. Harry D. Chamberlin. It shows the shoulder-in being done with both sets of legs crossing over, AND there is a text description verifiying it. It is a defined excercise.
http://black-forest-design.net/SI-Hacks-600-N1.gif[/QUOTE]
That’s the crappiest 4 track SI ever. He’s not bent very evenly through his body…but more through his poll. And he looks stiff as all get out.
here:
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p189/xckaboom/IMG_2315b.jpg
at this point it’s not much of a SI, and def not a leg yield on the long side, yet a very nice gymnastic exercise that proves suppleness and obedience. Only has place in the school at home.
What do you get from this type of exercise? A damn nice working trot. But not a half pass.
[QUOTE=purplnurpl;3386560]
Of course he trained it. Not specifically but when he wanted to go right he sure didn’t keep his hands on the key board and look right and see if his left ass made the swivel chair move.
Rule #1. Look where you are going.
lol.
If you are looking right and your left seat bone is initiated then you are not keeping your rib case open. Yet collapsing on the inside.
ooops, the biomechanist in me. shhhhh. my bad.
oh crap. now we are going to start talking about Anatomy of Dressage and the Spiral seat.
Swim Away Foo-Go Fish Swim Away!! Charrrrllliiieeee![/QUOTE]
Cripes, give it a try and if doesn’t work THEN snipe. It’s just about pointless to try to help people around here. The same thing doesn’t work for everybody and almost every person who regularly rides has some trick or tip that has helped him. Keeping up with the status quo of just blowing other posters off is just silly and small minded.
[QUOTE=ideayoda;3385235]
DA I would refer you to the rules (about crossing):
…
I understand what you are trying to convey about the lines of travel concept, but that is different that what crosses (t/r/hp/ly) and where the hindleg is placed in s.i.).[/QUOTE]
You lost me there,… I’m familiar with the rules, and also at “L” program we actually had several questions in the written exam about what pairs of legs cross and what pairs travel straight for what lateral movement. We also had a very short description of the lateral movements and we had to answer which one that was…
[QUOTE=ideayoda;3385235]
DA I would refer you to the rules (about crossing):
…
I understand what you are trying to convey about the lines of travel concept, but that is different that what crosses (t/r/hp/ly) and where the hindleg is placed in s.i.).[/QUOTE]
You lost me there,… I’m familiar with the rules, and also at “L” program we actually had several questions in the written exam about what pairs of legs cross and what pairs travel straight for what lateral movement. We also had a very short description of the lateral movements and we had to answer which one that was… hind legs in shoulder-in do not cross - I’ve been personally told that by 2 of my instructors.
Gucci Cowgirl,
Originally posted by Gucci Cowgirl:
I am also still waiting for you to show me where I wrote “cross both hands over the withers” for a shoulder in…
I did look to see if I could find it quickly and I couldn’t. I am not going to spend hours of my time trying to find that quote.
However, your recent quote will work just as well.
Bringing both hands over to move the shoulders is not the correct way to make a turn. If you ride that way you loose the energy that you should be generating from tail to poll. You cause a “break” in the line of energy.
If you have schooled your horse correctly the spine of the horse is going to be parallel to the track of the movement and the shoulders are controlled by the inside leg and the hands essentially. The control of the shoulders actually becomes “balanced” between the inside leg controlling the rib cage and the hands controlling the mouth … it is a “float” … the shoulders can be easily moved because the horse is completely relaxed into the aids.
I am not going to go into the analysis of that on the half-pass thread.
Originally posted by Gucci Cowgirl:
I never said across the withers, I would love for you to show me where you think you saw those words??
I said bring both hands TOWARDSthe inside. like turning. BOTH hands in the direction of the turn. Never across, with either hand, in either direction. Every BNT I have trained with, plus “O” judge, all say the same thing. both hands towards go in the direction of the turn, or wherever you want the shoulders.
most people use only their inside rein, and crank it across the wither to the outside. That is the opposite of correct.
I posted the photograph of the shoulder-in being done with both sets of legs crossing. It is an old exercise that works very well. YOU didn’t like it. However, it was posted to back up my initial statement saying, “If you can do the shoulder-in, you can do the half-pass.”
Originally posted by Gucci Cowgirl:
What does this have to do with half passes?
purplnurpl,
Originally posetd by purplnurpl:
That’s the crappiest 4 track SI ever. He’s not bent very evenly through his body…but more through his poll. And he looks stiff as all get out.
The horse he is riding if probably 15.2 and a cavalry remount. Short, tight cavalry horse built and schooled for jumping, galloping and long distance. Not a competition dressage horse.
I posted it to back up my comment that such an exercise did and does exist.
Gucci,
It is not an “incorrect SI”, it is an accepted exercise. I already answered the OPs question initially on the HP. YOU did not like my answer.
Originally posted by Gucci Cowgirl:
The OP’s question was about HP, why do we need to see justification for an incorrect SI exercise?
Do you really think that I need you to tell me it’s my choice? Now there’s a concept. I don’t ever recall saying that it should have a place in your training program or that of your coaches.
Originally posted by Gucci Cowgirl:
If you use it, it’s your choice. It has no place in my training program, or that of my coaches.
My bnt and BNT <—bnt’s BNT both say that:
legs control hind quarters
hands control shoulders
When the horse won’t turn, you are not going forward and you are holding too much. Add leg and give.
Soooo…
half pass— go forward, turn down c-line with inside leg supporting the horse’s balance. Straight one stride, bend, aid for travers, and off you go. Then lots of inside leg for forward.
Half pass is easy, I don’t get why people are so confused. Now haunches in- in a laterally stiff horse- is harder than half pass to maintain correctly because the angle weights the hind legs and blocks the horse’s forward momentum more. So for the really laterally challenged horse, lots and lots of travers and renvers are in order!!
(I ride one :-D). It’ll come- get lessons and a mirror.
Originally posted by vanillabean:
legs control hind quarters
hands control shoulders
Yes, but there is a “float” in there between the bit and the hind quarters.
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