Halter-bridle combos? and saddle update, and water issues (update post 20)

[quietann]

Just wondering about how you all feel about halter-bridle combos, what are the best brands, etc. I am trailering on my own some, and would be very nice to not have to switch out the halter for a bridle, especially since my mare can be wiggly. Sizing is also important … My mare is a Morgan with a somewhat Arab-y head; her everyday bridle started as a generously sized Cob bridle, and everything has been shortened except for the noseband which hasn’t been changed, and the browband, which I had to swap out for a WB size.

Saddle update: some of you may remember my saddle woes from the winter. I did end up with a semi-custom Celeste, with most of the customizations made to fit me better. I thought it wasn’t going to work at first, but was lucky enough to get a saddle guru to redo the flocking. I still use a ThinLine trifecta pad with shims in the back, and the tree MW+ may need to go down to a MW, but the mare is happy and I am thrilled with the saddle.

Last thing, this is kind of a whine! My mare is none too fond of going into water, especially when she is alone. She’s an ex-low-level eventer and water questions were her biggest issue. Once she is in, she loves it, but getting her in often is a big fight… She will step toward the water and then back, and back, and back, be utterly distracted by whatever she can be utterly distracted by, etc. If I get her close enough so she can put her head down and snort and blow at the water and then splash her nose around in it, that takes care of the sillies and she will then go in, and stand as long as I want her to.

Yesterday I did not get her in at a nice, very horse-friendly reservoir… there were lots of distractions and she was by herself. A friend suggested backing her in, but “tricking” her into things tends to result in a big spook.

[Guilherme]

[QUOTE=quietann;8255743]
Just wondering about how you all feel about halter-bridle combos, what are the best brands, etc. I am trailering on my own some, and would be very nice to not have to switch out the halter for a bridle, especially since my mare can be wiggly. Sizing is also important … My mare is a Morgan with a somewhat Arab-y head; her everyday bridle started as a generously sized Cob bridle, and everything has been shortened except for the noseband which hasn’t been changed, and the browband, which I had to swap out for a WB size.

I don’t like them. I’ve never found one that fit well. Some horses don’t like the way the bit works. They were originally developed by the Cavalry in 1912. They were never adopted. They stayed with the M1909 halter and headstall combination. That’s what I use today.

Saddle update: some of you may remember my saddle woes from the winter. I did end up with a semi-custom Celeste, with most of the customizations made to fit me better. I thought it wasn’t going to work at first, but was lucky enough to get a saddle guru to redo the flocking. I still use a ThinLine trifecta pad with shims in the back, and the tree MW+ may need to go down to a MW, but the mare is happy and I am thrilled with the saddle.

Like shoes, if a saddle is a little bit two big you can do the equivalent of two pair of sox. But if it’s two small putting a second pair of sox on will not work very well. As long as there’s no back or other soreness then you’re probably all right.

Last thing, this is kind of a whine! My mare is none too fond of going into water, especially when she is alone. She’s an ex-low-level eventer and water questions were her biggest issue. Once she is in, she loves it, but getting her in often is a big fight… She will step toward the water and then back, and back, and back, be utterly distracted by whatever she can be utterly distracted by, etc. If I get her close enough so she can put her head down and snort and blow at the water and then splash her nose around in it, that takes care of the sillies and she will then go in, and stand as long as I want her to.

Yesterday I did not get her in at a nice, very horse-friendly reservoir… there were lots of distractions and she was by herself. A friend suggested backing her in, but “tricking” her into things tends to result in a big spook.[/QUOTE]

Horse can have the equivalent of “phobias.” Usually they come from repeated (and thus reinforced) bad experiences under a specific set of circumstances. Once that happens even if you take away the “bad experience” part you still have the “memory of the bad experience” part to deal with. Sometimes all it takes to deal with “phobia” is a simple change of circumstance (like backing into water instead of walking straight). Sometimes that just means the “resistance” will come once they figure out that they are moving forward in the water vice backwards or sideways. I’d get somebody to video you during one these events. You might see things on the video that you can’t experience from the saddle and that might give you some new options to work with.

Good luck in your program.

G.

[gothedistance]

quietann - I would suggest you contact Amanda Taylor of Tayloredtack.com. She can do a custom halter/bridle for you in any color out of top quality BioThane. I have two of her halter/bridle and breastplate combos (one purple and one blue - both with the fancy stitching). Not only are they exquisite, but they also fit beautifully. Very soft, very pliable, very gentle on a horse, not at all stiff or rough or razor sharp. They also hold their color beautifully, too.

Regarding the water - you’re going to have to take your time on this, and it may take up to a year or so for your mare to become reliable about entering water. Right now don’t try and force, or try to get her to go in with you mounted. Before any ride where you will be crossing water, put some horse cookies in your pocket. About 30’ from the water source, get off, put your reins over the horse’s head, and LEAD HER to the edge of the water. Tap it with your foot so she can not only see the splash, but also to break the reflective surface so that she can see it has depth. Offer her a cookie for being good, then walk into the water with her following. Even if it is just one foot, praise her, pat her, and give her a cookie. “Play” in the water yourself, making it fun, and pretend to eat one of her cookies yourself, making it sound soooooo yummy. She should want one, too, so make her step both feet into the water before you give a third cookie and praise. Let her play in the water, and while her feet are still in the water, mount up, praise, and walk forward the rest of the way. AND KEEP GOING. Don’t redo, don’t turn around and do it again. You want to her to learn that once she goes through, that’s the end of it and off you go to other adventures. That creek should only be a tiny part of the trail and your goal is to merely go across and be done it it immediately.

Each time you come to a creek, dismount away from the creek, lead her up to it splash in to break the reflective surface, and see if she’ll step in of her own accord. Lots of praise, cookies, mount up while in the water, and march through and keep going down the trail.

It will take a while, but this is what she’ll learn:

Water=cookies. Yummy cookies
Water is no big deal - you go through and never think about it again.
Mommy likes water and eats cookies when she’s in it.
I get pats and a happy mommy AND cookies when I go in water.
Mommy is not going to make me do it again and again and again.

You need to make it “no big deal”, like stepping over a log on the trail. Once through you keep going and don’t look back. Eventually she will learn that water isn’t an obstacle - it’s merely a type of log in the trail. When she gets to the point of happily marching in and through as though it’s an everyday affair and ho-hum, you can always stop midway and give her a cookie from the saddle.

Good luck. Don’t rush, don’t hurry, be gentle, offer praise and treats, and above all don’t drill.

[GreyDes]

I second Taylored Tack, and also like Hought. Both will do custom sizing at no additional charge.

There are two main styles of halter/bridles - one with bit clips, and one that goes over the head. If your mare tends to be a little squirrelly, the over the head style can be easier to put on.

Www.tayloredtack.com and www.hought.com

You’re near me - let me know if you want to borrow or try on anything. I have a decent collection

[quietann]

ooo, Taylored Tack looks like we could have fun… and I like the customizable feature.

gothedistance, as far as water goes … She is SO much better than she used to be, and it’s been a matter of slow, careful work on my part … but every once in a while she Just Says No, and there are plenty of water-related things I have not yet tried with her… no big stream crossings, so far she’s been OK at the ocean as long as I don’t try to make her go in, etc. And peppermints. Lots of peppermints, though at this point she doesn’t get them all the time. Yes, there have been times when she’s balked, usually about crossing a tiny stream, that I’ve just gotten off and led her.

(And yes – she “has my number” to some degree, but now I have hers, in return Luckily I am not terribly ambitious or wanting to do a whole lot with her… She’s a pleasure horse, a really fun ride, and a little older and having some soundness issues on and off, so CTRs etc. aren’t where we are headed. It’s possible that I was just too disappointed yesterday, since I knew what I started with 7 1/2 years ago and most of the time she is Very Good.

On Friday, at a familiar pond with very few distractions, once she got the sillies out (took about 30 seconds and one touch with a whip at the very start), she went in up to her knees and just stood there quietly (but alertly), no peppermints required, and quietly enough that we had little fishes swimming around us. Sunday’s situation was probably just a bit too much … alone at a place she doesn’t know that well, lots of people around, dogs (all leashed), bicycles, etc. This was actually the first time I’d trailered her out and gone for a trail ride with no help from anyone. Had there been less going on, I would have dismounted and tried to lead her in.

[Flash44]

The water “issue” is actually a Go Forward issue. It’s the same as a rearing issue or a Won’t Load Into The Trailer issue. And bribery will get you nowhere. Do some ground work with your mare so she respects you and understands completely what Go Forward means. Then repeat under saddle. Work over a tarp and around scary objects. Then go to the water and do it. You can actually go straight to the water and skip the tarp and scary objects, but I like to test the horse a little while still in the ring, before going out into the open to test them. It should not take more than 20 or 30 minutes total.

[quietann]

20 to 30 minutes if you’re some sort of horse whisperer, perhaps.

We’ve worked a LOT on “Go Forward” over the years, and she is much better than she was, but I am just an ordinary middle-aged re-rider. I’ve re-taught her to self load (yes, small bribes are involved, because taking her away from her food is the most awfulest terriblest thing you can do to her, and it was backing her out and hence away from her food that actually taught her that self-loading is a good thing :lol:), to walk through puddles and little streams rather than leaping over them, etc.

Yes, various trainers can take over for me and have Forward Always installed quickly, but she’s smart enough to know I am not them. Only one (Greg Eliel) has really been helpful in this regard, but that’s because he knows that horses know the difference, and keeps his focus on the owner as much as on the horse.

If anything, an aggressive trainer makes the problem worse. E.g. they push her too quickly and her go-to is to rear and strike, even if they punish her, and rear and strike is now in her vocabulary of things to try with me. I don’t want her EVER thinking that’s an option. Would much rather have the occasional Won’t Go Forward problem and use my own patience with her than that.

ETA: YES I know this is a Go Forward problem and I know that you are one of the COTHers who really doesn’t like using treats, and I know that not everyone feels that way. And that’s fine.

[Guilherme]

[QUOTE=quietann;8257750]
20 to 30 minutes if you’re some sort of horse whisperer, perhaps.

We’ve worked a LOT on “Go Forward” over the years, and she is much better than she was, but I am just an ordinary middle-aged re-rider. I’ve re-taught her to self load (yes, small bribes are involved, because taking her away from her food is the most awfulest terriblest thing you can do to her, and it was backing her out and hence away from her food that actually taught her that self-loading is a good thing :lol:), to walk through puddles and little streams rather than leaping over them, etc.

Yes, various trainers can take over for me and have Forward Always installed quickly, but she’s smart enough to know I am not them. Only one (Greg Eliel) has really been helpful in this regard, but that’s because he knows that horses know the difference, and keeps his focus on the owner as much as on the horse.

If anything, an aggressive trainer makes the problem worse. E.g. they push her too quickly and her go-to is to rear and strike, even if they punish her, and rear and strike is now in her vocabulary of things to try with me. I don’t want her EVER thinking that’s an option. Would much rather have the occasional Won’t Go Forward problem and use my own patience with her than that.

ETA: YES I know this is a Go Forward problem and I know that you are one of the COTHers who really doesn’t like using treats, and I know that not everyone feels that way. And that’s fine.[/QUOTE]

All of this is why getting a good video of the problem is a Good Idea. There are things that can be seen from the ground that are not always clear from the saddle. The video camera doesn’t lie, has no preconceptions, no ego, etc. It’s just a faithful recorder of what it sees.

Maybe it won’t be of big help; maybe it will clearly show the problem. It’s about as cheap a way to diagnose something, however, that I can think of.

G.

[Flash44]

OP, if you are still having problems after years, then perhaps the treat idea is not really so effective? And I am just as normal and ordinary as you, just more lazy, so prefer to do things just once ;o). And I will be the first to admit that I never stop learning and I am always open to new ideas. As long as they don’t involve too much effort on my part.

[quietann]

[QUOTE=Flash44;8258715]
OP, if you are still having problems after years, then perhaps the treat idea is not really so effective? And I am just as normal and ordinary as you, just more lazy, so prefer to do things just once ;o). And I will be the first to admit that I never stop learning and I am always open to new ideas. As long as they don’t involve too much effort on my part.[/QUOTE]

Well… I have a little behaviorist psychology training. Just a little Which means that “treats every time” are not required. E.g. no peppermint for going into the pond that she knows; it’s expected behavior at this point. Have been through several training and retraining issues where I started with treats every time, and cut back gradually and irregularly, and now have a horse that behaves even though very rarely treated. It’s called “variable reinforcement” in the behaviorist world, and it works!

(Best example: she had suspensory surgery a few years ago, and when I started riding her again she didn’t want to stand still at the mounting block, because being ridden hurt and she was very out of shape after 8 months of no riding. So, for a while, it was all peppermints all the time at the mounting block… gradually reduced peppermints over the course of a few months … and now she will stand even though she gets a peppermint for standing at the mounting block maybe three or four times a year. And should the issue ever arise again, I have a go-to method that I know works.)

The trailering thing is a … different issue entirely, highly specific to this particular horse, how she was trained to self-load as a foal, and the extreme aversion to trailers she developed after ONE bad experience. And now she self-loads again easily because of the Magic Blue Bucket in the trailer, I can take her places by herself and handle her easily, etc. I’ll take that, rather than risk ruining it by trying something else.

[normandy_shores]

Taylored tack has nice stuff. I bought a zilco snap on headstall from riders warehouse for under $40. It’s just the headstall that snaps on (at the browband) to a rope halter. Very very easy, never have to unhalter for bridling (my motivation for getting it for a headshy/earshy pony), and it’s durable and easy to clean. Taylored tack offers the same style as well, but more $ of course.

[prudence]

I like the one-eared western headstalls with snaps at the bit. We put those over a Parelli rope halter and with our rope reins are ready for riding, leading, or tieing.

Also, intermittent reinforcement is da bomb but for crossing water we’ve always used herd instinct - horses cross behind other horses for however long it takes. Shouldn’t be too long. Choose your battles - this one shouldn’t be made into a big deal.

Have fun!

One-eared headstall with snaps:

http://www.chicksaddlery.com/page/CDS/PROD/HS1341

[jaybird660]

We also have Zilco. Very user friendly and easy to clean. There are two basic sizes, horse/arab and oversize. Glad to hear the Celeste is working out.

[quietann]

[QUOTE=jaybird660;8260548]
We also have Zilco. Very user friendly and easy to clean. There are two basic sizes, horse/arab and oversize. Glad to hear the Celeste is working out.[/QUOTE]

Well you know how worried I was about the Celeste! I’m really pleased with it now.

However, the quality of the factory flocking, which was full of golf-ball sized lumps and was really greasy, sticky, uneven wool, was not what I would expect for a $3000+ saddle. I know lumps can form, but after less than ten rides???

My saddle guru took it all out and started over with better materials. It’s now flocked more heavily in the back and less in the front. I still have to use rear shims, but not more than I was using with my previous saddles.

[quietann]

@prudence;8259654

I like the one-eared western headstalls with snaps at the bit. We put those over a Parelli rope halter and with our rope reins are ready for riding, leading, or tieing.

Also, intermittent reinforcement is da bomb but for crossing water we’ve always used herd instinct - horses cross behind other horses for however long it takes. Shouldn’t be too long. Choose your battles - this one shouldn’t be made into a big deal.

Have fun!

Maybe it’s just my background, but I was taught not to hard tie with a rope halter, because it won’t break if something goes wrong. But since I use the Blocker rings it might not matter anyway, but If there isn’t a way to use the Blockers what would I do? I like the idea of something I can just slip over a halter.

This horse will generally cross or go into water if there is another horse with her who doesn’t mind water. Mare is a little bit herdbound so that’s no surprise, though she’s lost her mind when horses have gone to the other side of really scary water. Especially if there are other horses still on the same side as her. (She’s the sort of mare who wants to keep track of All The Herd.)

[prudence]

You know I came from a similar background I think, and still have leather halters with replaceable crowns in my tack. What I’ve found is that on the rare occasions a horse pulls back (and I can’t think of any of my endurance horses doing so recently) the crummy snap or crummy cotton lead rope or rein breaks. Not as readily as the leather crowns, which is a good thing when you are away from home, but eventually. I don’t know about how Beta and Zilco break - I have some of those and never tie with the halters because they are pricey to replace. Always good to have some sort of knife available if nothing gives.

Keep following other horses into the water and eventually she will be nonplussed about it even when alone. My horse will go through water by himself but he hates being alone on the trail. I wish he would get over that.

Anyway these are just my thoughts on the subjects. I hope all goes well for you and your mare!

[Pocket_Pony]

[QUOTE=quietann;8262614]
Maybe it’s just my background, but I was taught not to hard tie with a rope halter, because it won’t break if something goes wrong. But since I use the Blocker rings it might not matter anyway, but If there isn’t a way to use the Blockers what would I do? I like the idea of something I can just slip over a halter.

This horse will generally cross or go into water if there is another horse with her who doesn’t mind water. Mare is a little bit herdbound so that’s no surprise, though she’s lost her mind when horses have gone to the other side of really scary water. Especially if there are other horses still on the same side as her. (She’s the sort of mare who wants to keep track of All The Herd.)[/QUOTE]

I hard tie with a rope halter. Having had (leased) a horse who had learned that pulling back hard enough would break whatever halter/rope/cross-tie he was in, I don’t want any horse to learn that pulling hard enough will eventually get out out of where you want to be. That horse did that to us twice and we sent him back, it was dangerous, unpredictable, and really not good in all ways. I generally go from a rope halter to a leather halter once I’m sure the horse isn’t going to be a puller-backer, but to start, rope halter it is. I’ve used the blocker tie ring before with my mustang, but when I used it with my filly, I found she very quickly realized that she could pull/root her way to get more rope (and I had flash-forward visions of her transferring this to rooting in the bridle), so I stopped using it and now tie to baling twine - there’s not as much give/slip with the lead rope, but if something goes really wrong, it would be easy for me to cut it.

I’m not sure what kind of halter and bridle you are using now, but I learned something really useful at a Buck Brannaman clinic. Of course this works if your bridle doesn’t have a noseband, but you can leave the rope halter on, put the bridle over it, then slip the rope halter off (noseband through the mouth and behind/under the bit - of course you DON’T want your horse tied while you do this, but with practice it is easy enough to do).

The last horse I taught to cross water under saddle, I made sure I had lots of time. We went to the trails (actually, it didn’t dawn on me until I was out there that he may or may not have ever been in water before) and I went to the water crossing and I stopped 10 yards or so away. I didn’t even ask him to go straight to the water. Then I asked him to take a couple steps forward and stop. My process was about moving the feet when I asked, not going through the water. So I would just take a few steps at a time and stop and forward and stop and forward and stop - listening to me was the goal. When we got to the water he just had to step in - not cross it, not go knees-deep, just a step. I do always carry cookies with me in a pouch, so of course he got a cookie and praise, but we worked on forward first.

Good luck with your horse and your trail adventures. I trail ride solo all the time and I prefer it to riding with others. You have to depend on each other and there’s a certain sense of peace and partnership when you’re out there all alone. Make sure you bring your phone and wear your helmet, though!

[prudence]

I like your response better than mine, Pocket Pony. We had a mare who learned to pull back until the halter broke when she felt like it, and we put up with it. When she went out for training, she was tied to a post with an unbreakable halter and rope and had to learn life doesn’t work quite like she thought. I felt so bad I didn’t nip the bad habit much earlier.

This link is to an article by Donna Snyder-Smith who has written much about trail riding. I hope the link works.

http://equusmagazine.com/article/trustworthy_trail_horse_052008-10655?utm_campaign=shareaholic&utm_medium=email_this&utm_source=email

[quietann]

Prudence and PoPo, thank you for your kind answers. I liked the Equus article especially for dealing with situations without force. I’ve gotten the mare into water before by just keeping her pointed at it … yes she sometimes backs up but if I let out a big exhale and just drop the tension from my body, she usually will stop. Might end up back at the “troublesome” water on Friday if I have time; it should be less busy and with fewer distractions I suspect things will go better.

With relatively minimal skills and taking a lot of time, I’ve gotten this mare from one who would plant her feet just in front of the barn especially when by herself, or turn into a spooky spinning mess at the first puddle she saw, to one I’m comfortable taking out alone, who can get a bit silly but doesn’t have the wicked spook anymore. She’s a sweetie, just requires a whole lot of patience and the ability to out-think her. Several years after I bought her, I had a chance to talk with the woman who started her, and that woman told me the mare had a good willing attitude, but had a very complicated brain and required a lot of reassurance and time to get used to things, moreso than most young horses. I have learned a lot from her, sometimes with a lot of frustration and tears, but it’s been worth it.

[quietann]

Just bumping up to say yes, we went into the water today! It was the same place I tried last time, except this time it was very quiet – no one else there, many fewer distractions so way easier to keep the mare’s focus.

First place, she got a little fractious so I turned her around and backed her back hooves in. I think she knew she’d been tricked, so I backed her in a second time. I didn’t really trust the footing there, so went on to the better place where you can see the bottom of the pond. She got a case of the “don’ wannas”, so we had a serious discussion (yes I used the whip a couple of times, another reason not to have an audience.) Lots of “go forward” aids, especially when she started backing up, huge amounts of praise for any forward I got. She got closer and closer, was only a little squirrely at the edge, and then went right in. A bit more “forward” got her in up to her knees.

And because this is Mah Fool Horse, of course she didn’t want to come out! The ground was pretty hard so she may have been a little foot-sore, and cool water would be nice to have on sore hooves.

We got out and went back in a couple of times, and it was really No Big Deal.

I’m going to call this a win.