The video you posted of Red Hot Impulse does show that he is a lovely horse - FREE. BUT the under saddle part, just like in the other WP video clips looks VERY, SEVERELY painful. I can’t understand why anyone would WANT to train their horse to look like he was severely in pain and arthritic.
My husband, who knows really nothing about horses (especially their gaits) came in while I was watching the undersaddle portion of the above mentioned video. His comment was “is that horse lame?”. I said, “no, he is going to win the class”. He was amazed because he thought he did look lame (as did I). I agree that free he looks much better than under saddle…
I don’t condone a lot of this stuff, and have not read all posts BUT there are MANY MANY big name dressage trainers in europe who’s horses never ever get turned out at all. And there are other breeds as well who do no turnout, or very limited turnout. Now I hate the halter horse stuff, and I dislike much of the QH western pleasure BUT I also know that not all QH trainers use “barbaric” methods, and that there ARE some gorgeous WP horses that move very nice a freely and yet still in a slower way and I think those are nice horses and probably well trained as well. As far as turnout goes I cannot believe the people who live “up north” and their hroses never get turned out in the winter. (not saying all but MANY MANY barns won’t turnout in the wintertime) they go out maybe for a 1/2 hour in the indoor. My horse go out no matter WHAT the weather, and are mentally and physically the better for it.
Check out Sonny’s Red Lace at the bottom of Shane’s Bake’s page. Poor thing doesn’t even look able to stand on her own.
[QUOTE=DoubleClick;2958284]
Check out Sonny’s Red Lace at the bottom of Shane’s Bake’s page. Poor thing doesn’t even look able to stand on her own.
http://www.bertonqh.com/index_bqh.htm[/QUOTE]
She looks like she has bed sores on her. Poor girl:cry:
Has anyone read the book “Tug of War”? It’s a recent addition to the dressage literature by a European vet who contends that the recent hyperflexion practice in dressage training is harmful to the horse, and explains in biomechanical detail why he believes that to be the case. Apparently, he changed his opinion at some recent point from pro-rollkur to anti-rollkur, and some would criticize him for that. Whatever. It’s a very interesting read.
What’s relevant to THIS discussion is that his rationalization for why hyperflexion is harmful does a beautiful job of explaining how the WP horses’ gaits become fractured, and why these horses end up moving as they do and looking so disfunctional.
What’s interesting about that is that the book is written about a practice that is currently at the forefront of competitive dressage.
Glass houses, folks; be careful. The QH halter and WP businesses have made a major industry of bad horsemanship, but by no means do they have the market completely cornered. One could argue that they’re losing territory in that endeavour at an alarming rate.
My personal take is I suspect that certain breed associations – and not just AQHA, although they’re on my suspect list – deliberately push a certain type to support the slaughter industry. The horses are unrideable, unsound at a young and and have no real other use as a result. But a lot of meat on those bones. We’ve heard from quarter horse breeders right on COTH that slaughter was a significant part of their business plan. Guaranteed market for their otherwise unsaleable products and used up broodies.
But that’s just my take.
[QUOTE=Fairview Horse Center;2958123]
Those WP horses look so incredibly painful, and totally miserable. If I saw one of my horses looking like that, I would know it was time to do the right thing for it. <flame suit on>
How can anyone WANT their horse to move like it is a SEVERELY crippled animal. That is not pretty. Just sad.[/QUOTE]
In defense, when I first broke my POA mare (though I think she’s a full App) I was all excited about fancy moving 14.1 pony mare that could jump knees-to-eyeballs 3’6" on the lunge. She had a comfy trot, awesome fluid canter, popped over fences like it was nothing. She had a natural balanced headset. Then I let her do her own thing one day just messing around (a few friends were goofing off on our horses) and she just did this little itty bitty COMFY as HELL western pleasure jog. She’s doesn’t do the 2’ stride, but her natural gait is to jog. I never realized til then that I had to really push to extend her stride. And out in the field she’ll jog around, never ever does a full trot. I’ve had her since she was 16 months so I guess it was just something she inherited. As she’s gotten older (and baby weight) she’s become a monster of a little horse. Bulldog type to a T. She must have been bred for either cow events or halter. She has a massive neck, elephant sized butt, and shoulders off a rhino. She had an emergency trip to the NCSU in November… 14.1… 1047 lbs… kid you not. She does not get grain, and only eats what little grass there is in the field now and about 6 lbs of hay a day.
My 3 yr old also has moments of natural bred jog in him when lunging and he collects like a good boy, but he has no lope and too nice of a canter for me to want to do WP with him.
BTW - does anyone know of any diet regiments for an air fern horse?? 
I don’t think you’ll find anyone arguing that point. However, they don’t breed that. With the halter industry they breed atrocious conformation because that is ideal for them. Rollkur is similar to the WP gaits, the practices of shady saddle seat (TWH especially), and hunter/jumper (tack rails anyone?) “training.” It’s the difference between abusive training and abusive breeding (if that makes sense).
[QUOTE=eqsiu;2957792]
That is exactly what a halter horse is.
WP is a western pleasure horse. They are supposed to be smooth and easy with collected gaits. Often times they end up looking exceptionally lame and screwed up. The abuse trends there are lunging for hours, blood letting (I don’t know if anyone does this anymore, but it was once a popular alternative to sedation), sedation, etc. All to make them move with 1’ strides. They used to be nose to the floor peanut rollers, but now they are looking for a level topline. I don’t know if that’s how they actually judge it…http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2RiHEOoEUY[/QUOTE]
I just showed this to my non horsey husband and his response was - they look like they are lame (he knows NOTHING about horses). I showed him a pic of a halter horse and he said ‘what’s happening there’? I think that pretty much sums it up.
[QUOTE=spacely;2957834]
Positively vomitous. :dead: :dead:
Let’s also not forget the navicular disease that runs rampant throughout these guys. The owners & trainers think nothing of it either. :mad:[/QUOTE]
Ummm… all the pain might give the horse that nice short stride that seems to be sought after, as in the WP video link.
Most top show hunters don’t get turnout either. Any discipline with high dollar horses is going to have that, unfortunately.
But if no one ever talks about this stuff, nothing will ever change. Each of us has the responsibility to treat our horses well and make their lives as happy and healthy as possible. Many people don’t know better though. One of my favorite quotes, “He who is not aware of his ignorance will only be misled by his knowledge.”
Nope, not in that glass house. I also VERY much disagree with the overflexion.
[QUOTE=Fairview Horse Center;2957278]
I hear the WP horses also have their heads tied to the ceiling. :no: 
[/QUOTE]
Certain trainers/people do the same thing to a lot of the hunter ponies. Hunter ponies that may prefer to be short strided, heads in the air, maybe a little hot.
[QUOTE=europa;2957482]
click on Sir Cool Skip
HOLY CRAP[/QUOTE]
He is repulsive. I can’t stand looking at his stud ads, ever since the first time I saw his ad.
We actually just got this book in at the USEA office today from the publisher to see if we wanted to carry it. I agree, a very interesting and enlightening read… I enjoyed it quite a bit.
To keep on topic - as an event rider watching the Western Pleasure horses in the videos… it made my eyes bleed. Ack! But to each his own, I suppose… I have to say that I do love the good ol’ fashioned foundation QH’s (working horses) and yes, there are some pretty nice looking HUS guys out there as well. And actually, some of the best foxhunters I’ve seen are Appendix. Can’t beat that QH temperament!
Oh dear - do these trainers/owners/judges have no love for the horses? I go to a QH show and my eye sees lots of nice horses in the warm-up rings standing around with heads held naturally, not so high, but natural. They are bum high and they don’t move like a WB, but they are nice horses. THEN they start warming up - and by the time they go in the ring they have been punished, jabbed and forced into their winning and painful gates with their heads down to their knees.
I adore the QH breed and have had a few cross-breds. They do have
some bred-in traits, like a four-beat canter on some, but their willingness, honesty and “on” / “off” buttons, easy keeping qualities make them wonderful horses.
It is bloody sad.
There is an interesting thread on Off Course http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=131115
It manages to discuss abuses in many breeds and disciplines
Here’s the list of ‘abuses’ in no particular order:
Riding young horses in a frame
Racing 2 yr olds
IJF - Jumping 4yr olds at 3’
Jumpers in general
QH - Halter and WP
Reining
Barrel racing
TWH
Breeding in General - Better to let nature controls who breeds, that kind of thing. Yes, they are talking about you.
I’m sure they’ll get around to Rollkur, the FEI Dressage Young Horse classes and the Eventing Young Horse classes soon enough. Maybe I’ll help them by adding the 100 day stallion test -3 yr olds to the list.
Just my opinion but it all looks different from the outside looking in. Don’t be so quick to pick on one group unless you are sure what you are doing is squeaky clean.
When to a QH show with a friend of ours from Ireland whose eyes were bugging out of his head at everything.
What he couldn’t understand is how all these different ‘types’ of horses were the same breed. :sigh:
We have QH’s - some are halter and foundation bred and I love them to pieces but it still makes me sad.
Well here is my take: this thread started about halter stock horses. And I do think that it IS a massive disservice to horse breeding to intnetionally breed a horse that is physically too dysfunctional to ride. It went off on a tangent with WP. But the issues surrounding WP are a training issue. You have a basically good horse with messed up training…and that is indeed no different than any other disipline. There are a few halter stallions that ride. There are far more that can’t. The whole point of breeding for most disciplines is to try an breed a horse that will stay sound for sport X be it English or Western. I still can’t wrap my mind around intentionally breeding a horse that is generally conformationally unsuited to being ridden or staying sound. On a couple of posts I hear that folks have their foundation horses. To me Foundation line means “of the old an original bloodlines” (in other words…pre Impressive when stock horses were still expected to work liveSTOCK and thus the name…). Nothing wrong with that…that was back when horses were expected to be athletes. The Halter Horse that has not and will never have any job other than to stand around and look like Mr. Universe in a halter is a recent and unfortunate occurance.I have NOTHING against folks that show their horses in halter. Some warmbloods are nothing more than professional triangle trotters and then make babies. The difference is that the WB Triangle Trotter is suppose to embody a horse capable of being an athlete while the current stock horse Halter Hunk is capable of nothing more than that. The only way that is going to change is if Halter Hunky no longer wins and judges start pinning a horse that can get out of his own way.
