I wish performance testing (or better yet, performance) was required for WBs. Nice gaits do not make a performance horse.
Though I could care less if a horse did well in his/her performance test as long as he/she performed at shows and the offspring can perform. Isn’t that the point of breeding? To create horses that perform?
[QUOTE=eqsiu;2958810]
I wish performance testing (or better yet, performance) was required for WBs. Nice gaits do not make a performance horse.
Though I could care less if a horse did well in his/her performance test as long as he/she performed at shows and the offspring can perform. Isn’t that the point of breeding? To create horses that perform?[/QUOTE]
I agree 110% with this. But people within their discipline will argue that is what their horse is doing. WP people feel that their horse is performing; it is excelling in the discipline it was bred for and if it is winning it must be a success, right? Reiners, jumpers, halter, “successful performer” is by definition winning in a selected discipline.
I think this (from a previous poster) summed it up :
Quote "It manages to discuss abuses in many breeds and disciplines
Here’s the list of ‘abuses’ in no particular order:
Riding young horses in a frame
Racing 2 yr olds
IJF - Jumping 4yr olds at 3’
Jumpers in general
QH - Halter and WP
Reining
Barrel racing
TWH
Breeding in General - Better to let nature controls who breeds, that kind of thing. Yes, they are talking about you.
I agree – the AQHA halter horses are a conformational disaster and the wp “schooling” I’ve seen at their shows involved cantering on and on and on and on … I couldn’t believe it. It’s cruel. However, until these folks police their own and until they write rules for the judges that makes sense and severely penalize judges that pin poor conformation, broken gaits, etc., it won’t change. Unfortunately, animals for many are just an opportunity to gain attention and “stature” and inflate their ego/bang their chest. They are the “vehicle to success” - no more, no less and very dispensible whenever they lose their glamour. The halter horses look like some of the horses in Europe that are bred for meat. It’s not only unfortunate, it’s an insult to the species and a disgusting display of human greed. However, until the organizations change what wins, it will continue. That holds true in every sport that involves a defenseless animal. It’s pretty easy to assess one’s character by how their animals are treated. Very, very sad.
PennyG
[QUOTE=eqsiu;2958372]
I don’t think you’ll find anyone arguing that point. However, they don’t breed that. With the halter industry they breed atrocious conformation because that is ideal for them. Rollkur is similar to the WP gaits, the practices of shady saddle seat (TWH especially), and hunter/jumper (tack rails anyone?) “training.” It’s the difference between abusive training and abusive breeding (if that makes sense).[/QUOTE]
Finally someone who says something that makes sense!
ABUSIVE TRAINING vs ABUSIVE BREEDING. What other breed/discipline breeds specifically for lameness, not being able to be ridden, and terrible conformation. Tell me? ----This coming from someone whose family owns several QH’s and has bred several as well.
For only $1500 you too could end up with a foal whose chances of being an HYPP carrier are 100%! http://www.encorefarm.net/ These guys stand a stallion that is not just N/H (bad enough) but H/H (truly disturbing) - I didn’t realize there were still such horses out there breeding.
Edited to add: Upon viewing their broodmare page, I’ve learned that Encore Farm does not have a SINGLE foal coming (as far as their website reflects) in 2008 that does not have a N/H or H/H parent. Not ONE healthy foal on the way.
So after taking an hour to read through all the posts… disturbing!!! I just don’t understand why people breed when they KNOW that they are adding negative qualities to their foals (eg HYPP). How is this responsible breeding!?!
Wow. Encore farm…and other farms like those should be illegal. That is NOT right on SO many different levels…I am outraged! CANT … RESIST… MUST … SEND EMAIL … TO … BREEDERS… :yes::no::yes::no::yes::no:
[QUOTE=eqsiu;2958810]
I wish performance testing (or better yet, performance) was required for WBs. Nice gaits do not make a performance horse.
Though I could care less if a horse did well in his/her performance test as long as he/she performed at shows and the offspring can perform. Isn’t that the point of breeding? To create horses that perform?[/QUOTE]
Actually I don’t for a number of reasons. There are the broodmares that are very well bred and had a pasture accident or something similar preventing them from doing so. There are breeders that keep an occasional best filly from a line for just that purpose of breeding. That is all fine with me if family members are out there performing. I do hate to see breeding programs where no one in recent history is out there being ridden. I think that is where the “star” program in some breeds is a real plus. Your mare gets in the main book for having the proper pedigree/moving sufficiently & you get bonus points for performance, superior offsping etc. And really the APHA has that too. You get your papers for having registered parents and for getting a certain number of points in a type of class you get a ROM (register of merit) award. I don’t thinl there is anything wrong with the basic infrastructure. What is wrong is what is being rewarded by judges FROM the parent breed associations (AQHA/APHA) in perpetuating a halter ideal that is incapable of going on to actually perform in the other under saddle disiplines within the same breed. Mr. Hunky is not capable of running a barrel pattern/race/chase cows (he can’t run), bending any poles (he can’t bend PERIOD!), or haul that massive junk in the trunk over a fence. So the question is WHY this has become a “breed standard” when it is so dysfunctional.
Although I like that one stallion he is trantering…that is ridiculous!! I started with QHs and I liked a nice lope…WTF is that???
CMON people let the horse jog and lope.
BTW THEY WANT TO BREED THE HYPP GENE IN THEY ARE BULKIER
I can guarantee you that I would never EVER knowing breed a genetically flawed horse.
The Germans don’t let their showhorses out because they don’t have the pastures. Land is at a premium and at least they get exercise. Mine went on the walker and was ridden along with trips to the solarium. Plus, I did ride out.
I hate rollkur/poling/excessive lunging and jumping
Mine get more out then in time.
[QUOTE=didgery;2958960]
For only $1500 you too could end up with a foal whose chances of being an HYPP carrier are 100%! http://www.encorefarm.net/ These guys stand a stallion that is not just N/H (bad enough) but H/H (truly disturbing) - I didn’t realize there were still such horses out there breeding.
Edited to add: Upon viewing their broodmare page, I’ve learned that Encore Farm does not have a SINGLE foal coming (as far as their website reflects) in 2008 that does not have a N/H or H/H parent. Not ONE healthy foal on the way.[/QUOTE]
That disturbs me too though that is a whole 'nuther topic. I also don’t understand why the breeding of equine epilepsy of sorts is not phased out entirely. There is another whole long thread on this topic from a few months back. However, it is not entirely a separate issue from the Halter Hunk topic because the trend started with Impressive, who is the root if the HYPP thing. There is some thought that part of why Impressive looked like he did is because of the HYPP. And since that belief persists among certain halter breeders it is WHY they continue to breed positive horses. To get The Look. The health of the horse or the breed is of no importance (roll eyeballs). Now it is certainly not all the halter breeders, and the ones I did know of doing this had an ideal of an N/H so as not to have a symptomatic horse…but sheesh. They shouldn’t be breeding for it at all! The APHA/AQHA’s reason for not banning it years ago is financial. They said it would ruin the breeders that had positive horses if one day they ruled they couldn’t breed the horses they spent pots of time and money accumulating over the years. I think that is admirable and good. IF this was right after the test for HYPP was discovered. But that isn’t it. The test has been around for ages. People have not been responsible to try and use that test to breed that horrid disease out on their own. They are still breeding for it on purpose in the hopes of getting a dysfunctional looking horse. What they should have done was back when the test was discovered was say “10 years from now HYPP horses can no longer be registered”. It would have eventually phased out the disease without ruining the breeders financially.
[QUOTE=eqsiu;2958810]
I wish performance testing (or better yet, performance) was required for WBs. Nice gaits do not make a performance horse.
Though I could care less if a horse did well in his/her performance test as long as he/she performed at shows and the offspring can perform. Isn’t that the point of breeding? To create horses that perform?[/QUOTE]
I too believe this becuase I feel that it is likely the same thing is happening to warmbloods as has to QH’s. That a lot of WB’s are being bred that look “good” but have disposition and even worse, lameness problems, there is an extraordinarily high incidence of OCD’s in WB’s, just as their is a high incidence of navicular in the QH breed. If horses were required to perform and not breed if they go unsound due to this, it might reverse it. I do know SOME breeders x-ray for it and I think some of the registrys are starting to require it on stallions, but that doesn’t mean the mare is not OCD, and pass it on to offspring. Now I am not totally likening the WB breeders to the halter horse breeders, but feel that “inspections” on the line are not sufficient to insure that those individuals COULD perform and that a similar situation of horses that look good on a lead line could result
[QUOTE=DoubleClick;2958284]
Check out Sonny’s Red Lace at the bottom of Shane’s Bake’s page. Poor thing doesn’t even look able to stand on her own.
http://www.bertonqh.com/index_bqh.htm[/QUOTE]
Don’t tell me they are breeding N/H horses :eek:! That’s just asking for it!
[QUOTE=USCavalry;2959199]
Don’t tell me they are breeding N/H horses :eek:! That’s just asking for it![/QUOTE]
3 of their 6 stallions are N/H and the one for sale is the N/N one (roll eyeballs)
[QUOTE=Fairview Horse Center;2958523]
Nope, not in that glass house. I also VERY much disagree with the overflexion.[/QUOTE]
Sure, so do I. But that doesn’t mean there aren’t people in the world of dressage who DO advocate hyperflexion.
Just as there are QH people who abhore halter breeding and WP training.
Even if you don’t live in one, doesn’t mean there aren’t glass houses on the dressage plantation. Nor does it mean that the entire QH industry lives in one.
QH shows are a big business, and there’s a tremendous social component to it. You know how much fun a good competitor’s party is? Or even the impromptu ones? The QH industry has taken that to the ultimate extreme–the party aspect and the “showmanship” has become such an issue that many of the people involved have lost touch with the horsemanship completely. They forgot–if, indeed, they ever knew in the first place–that the horse should have a purpose beyond being a pretty appointment for their elaborate stall setup. So, what is easier than just doing halter, why bother with all the mess and bother and sweat and dirt of riding? Instead, let’s let the breeders focus on producing the ultimate halter ornament. And the industry has just gotten way, way out of hand with it. Unfortunately there’s so much money driving it that making a substantive change that necessitates true work and horsemanship is going to be very, very difficult. The only way it might happen is if enough people simply turn their backs on it.
I adore QHs. Now that I’m older and a fat, middle-aged skeerty-cat, they are my breed of choice by a long shot, in spite of their limitations. But the one I have now, I don’t even have papers on–not a prayer that I’ll ever show him as a QH, and not much of a prayer that I’ll ever show him at all. And, though he was born and bred to be a WP horse (and bears the mental scars to prove it) … he sure as heck doesn’t move like one any more!
[QUOTE=monstrpony;2959239]
Sure, so do I. But that doesn’t mean there aren’t people in the world of dressage who DO advocate hyperflexion.
Just as there are QH people who abhore halter breeding and WP training.
Even if you don’t live in one, doesn’t mean there aren’t glass houses on the dressage plantation. Nor does it mean that the entire QH industry lives in one.
QH shows are a big business, and there’s a tremendous social component to it. You know how much fun a good competitor’s party is? Or even the impromptu ones? The QH industry has taken that to the ultimate extreme–the party aspect and the “showmanship” has become such an issue that many of the people involved have lost touch with the horsemanship completely. They forgot–if, indeed, they ever knew in the first place–that the horse should have a purpose beyond being a pretty appointment for their elaborate stall setup. So, what is easier than just doing halter, why bother with all the mess and bother and sweat and dirt of riding? Instead, let’s let the breeders focus on producing the ultimate halter ornament. And the industry has just gotten way, way out of hand with it. Unfortunately there’s so much money driving it that making a substantive change that necessitates true work and horsemanship is going to be very, very difficult. The only way it might happen is if enough people simply turn their backs on it.
I adore QHs. Now that I’m older and a fat, middle-aged skeerty-cat, they are my breed of choice by a long shot, in spite of their limitations. But the one I have now, I don’t even have papers on–not a prayer that I’ll ever show him as a QH, and not much of a prayer that I’ll ever show him at all. And, though he was born and bred to be a WP horse (and bears the mental scars to prove it) … he sure as heck doesn’t move like one any more![/QUOTE]
NO ONE is bashing QHs as a breed, QH breeders or people that love QHs. This post is directed at a very specific dysfuntional segment of the stock horse industry.
This part hits that nail right on the head:
“They forgot–if, indeed, they ever knew in the first place–that the horse should have a purpose”
The thing is though that that aspect has been perpetuated by the judging. In any breed there are folks that breed that have no idea what they really should be breeding for. The point of inspections is hopefully to point it out so breeders know where they went wrong and don’t keep making the same mistake. The stock horse breeding industry supports and promotes the breeding of ill conformed and dysfuntional animals…so that problem lies at the feet of the APHA and AQHA breed registries themselves. Their judges are condoning, supporting and even promoting it. It won’t stop until they stop pinning those animals as the breed ideal. They are not “real QHs” that are the lovely riding animals that are a deserved part of our riding community. There is no reason folks can’t just show in halter classes if that is all they want to do and never ride a horse. It’s just that the breed ideal should be one CAPABLE of being ridden.
I don’t think an HYPP positive foal can be registered with the AQHA anymore – and I believe that’s been true for several years. They are trying to clean that up, but it doesn’t solve the rest of the problems.
PennyG
H/H foals can’t as of 2007.
Here is the blurb from the AQHA rulebook
" Effective with foals born on or after January 1, 2007, all descendants of the of the stallion Impressive, AQHA registration number 0767246, shall be required to be parentage verified and HYPP tested, subject to the conditions in ©(2) above. Any foal testing homozygous positive for HYPP (H/H) will not be eligible for registration with AQHA."
So, only horses homozygous for HYPP can’t be registered.
This is another blurb right off the AQHA site:
For some time now, you have probably heard, or had first-hand knowledge, of the condition known as hyperkalemic periodic paralysis (HYPP). This condition is characterized by intermittent episodes of muscle tremors (shaking or trembling, weaknesses and/or collapse).
At the 1996 AQHA Convention in Seattle, Washington, the AQHA Board of Directors approved some rules recommended by the AQHA Stud Book and Registration Committee and approved by the Board of Directors. Among the changes was a rule requiring disclosure of HYPP status on the registration certificates of foals born on or after January 1, 1998, which descend from any bloodline determined to carry the HYPP gene.
Beginning with the 1997 AQHA Official Handbook, HYPP is in rule 205 among conditions commonly considered undesirable traits or genetic defects, such as parrot mouth and cryptorchidism. These conditions do not prevent a horse from being used as breeding stock or from participating in AQHA-approved events, subject to rules of the individual event.
Beginning with 1998 foals, the rule requires the following notification to be placed on the registration certificates of foals descending from any bloodline determined to carry the HYPP gene:
“This horse has an ancestor known to carry HYPP, designated under AQHA rules as a genetic defect, AQHA recommends testing to confirm presence or absence of this gene.”
Facts about HYPP have been gained through research projects funded in part by AQHA, through the University of California, Davis and the University of Pennsylvania. The first report, from Drs. Sharon Spier and Gary Carlson of U.C. Davis, was delivered to AQHA in the summer 1992, and published in-full in the September 1992 issue of The Quarter Horse Journal. As additional information has been made available, AQHA has promptly published it. I invite you to refer to [the Publications] page for a list of AQHA publications and others which contain information about HYPP.
So…the AQHA basically says that they have had plenty of info on HYPP available since 1992, they thought about some rule changes in 1996 to be effective in 1998 that disclosing the defect became mandatory. At that point there was still no real incentive to not breed for it since all that happened was that your horse was positive for it now got stamped on his papers. (That they more or less think it’s OK to breed horses with HYPP, Cryptorchidism and parrot mouth too also boggles the mind but that is a whole other tangent.) As of 2007 you can no longer register a horse that is H/H (which is likely to be symptomatic) but there still is no real incentive to breed it out of the gene pool entirely since having N/H’s are fine. So…in 15 years you now can’t register a horse that is H/H. I don’t really see any plan to eliminate the disease entirely.
As noted earlier, the HYPP thing isn’t really a separate issue from the halter issue because Impressve who is the foundation of HYPP is also the beginnings of the modern halter horse look thanks in part TO HYPP. Folks are still breeding HYPP postive horses in some places on purpose hoping to get that appearance.Getting rid of HYPP will not change the judging about the other confo flaws that have now become that halter standard, but it is a step in the right direction for the health of the breed as a whole.
[QUOTE=camohn;2959263]
Their judges are condoning, supporting and even promoting it. It won’t stop until they stop pinning those animals as the breed ideal.[/QUOTE]
This is quite true, and inspections alone won’t solve the problem. QH shows ARE essentially the breed inspections. The top breeders and judges are so much in bed together–there’s that money thing, again–that it would be very difficult to stop the cycle.
Same with the WP thing–the judges don’t want to ding their buddies who then won’t hire them to judge, and the top trainers sure don’t want to have to re-learn how to train horses to a different style.
Somehow, the consumers, if ineed that group can ever be identified, have to be educated and pursuaded to change their practices. When the whole thing is driven by money and back-scratching, it’s pretty hard to make change happen.
***I just hope the QH industry serves as a warning to any other discipline that sees the almighty dollar becoming the driving force behind its competition industry. It would be a shame for all of those deformed QHs to have suffered in vain.
[QUOTE=eqsiu;2957792]
That is exactly what a halter horse is.
WP is a western pleasure horse. They are supposed to be smooth and easy with collected gaits. Often times they end up looking exceptionally lame and screwed up. The abuse trends there are lunging for hours, blood letting (I don’t know if anyone does this anymore, but it was once a popular alternative to sedation), sedation, etc. All to make them move with 1’ strides. They used to be nose to the floor peanut rollers, but now they are looking for a level topline. I don’t know if that’s how they actually judge it…http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2RiHEOoEUY[/QUOTE]
Holy cow, that was one disturbing video…and if you scroll down and read the comments that some viewers have left, they think the horses move nicely 
It makes me want to register on youtube and make the “are you all nuts???” comment…good greif!
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