Hands held too high, curling behind contact/vertical, Karl Phillipe article

[QUOTE=belgianWBLuver;8962995]
Thx guys and the OP also - really enjoying this thread with a cup of coffee and enjoyed reading your answers.
I’ve taken the time to teach my gelding through the flexions, then in hand work, then ridden work, to reach for the bit and the connection with a slightly higher hand and when I get that connection - hand returns to a lower neutral position. Whenever he looses focus and raises the head, hands go up, more leg and seat is applied. Then he feels the connection, lowers his head to normal and hands follow to neutral. Of course the seat and leg are accompanying to maintain impulsion and that coupled with the connection creates a wonderful light airy forward energy which some call schwung.
Honestly the feeling is like crack and I want more!!![/QUOTE]

You’re welcome! I’m glad that we can discuss this. When I saw it the first time, I thought what!?! Then the same rider on another horse with the same reaction. Then the recent video of the other rider with the same problem. I just really needed to discuss this to find out if what I was pretty sure I was seeing, was in fact what I was seeing.

Crack is not always a bad thing, is it? :smiley:

Where have you been, Ideayoda? Missed your posts

Ditto

Sometimes riders get so focused on what their horses head is doing, that the riders forget that they must carry themselves. The rider who carries himself allows the horse to move naturally. that includes carrying ones hands, not lifting them up, or pushing them down and worse yet spread (pet peeve).

I consider spread hands acceptable for run-outs only.:lol:

[QUOTE=Foxtrot’s;8963120]
Where have you been, Ideayoda? Missed your posts[/QUOTE]

I agree - I’ve missed IDEAYODA also. Maybe IDEAYODA is just frustrated like myself - that most of the threads in the Dressage forum turn out like the “Dressage Transformation” snark-fest’ and of course, sadly, those are the one’s that get all the attention…:rolleyes:

Back on subject, Interestingly enough, I was taught, as a groom, years ago by Henriquet to lower the hands to get an unsubmissive horse (an OTTB) to lower his head.
It was difficult work at best, and never really produced softness from the jaw, or flexion from the poll.
Here is a paragraph from this article - which is in fact Karl’s letter to Henriquet:

"THE “LOW HANDS” OPTION

By virtue of a simplistic concept of the “mise-en-main”, limited to the unconditional “ramener” (end and means), the rider sets his hands low (some even hunch themselves up on the horse to put their hands at the knee level). This gives a crude action on the tongue (a hypersensitive organ). The horse tries to escape this pain by going above the hand. The rider resists (when he doesn’t pull) and pushes to overcome the perverse effects of this hand brake. A vicious cycle ensues. We all know what follows… palliatives of all kinds. This approach condemns itself simply by the fact that it requires the systematic use of instruments of coercion (side reins on the lunge, draw reins, specially designed crank nosebands, tight curb chains, etc.)…"

I, later, abandoned this “Low Hands” methode and found the other methode beginning with relaxation of the horse’s jaw, etc. - described in Karl’s article to work well for me on some horses.
Again, some horses are just naturally soft, in correct flexion, and forward and remain that way. Others need help and this methode, I have found works in many cases.

In light of this conversation about how to hold the hands when ridden, what are opinions of the use of side reins? I’ve had many trainers compare the use of the hands to side reins - side reins can’t lift, widen, whatever- they are softly elastic but don’t move up, down and all around. I know there is debate about them, but for those commenting on this thread, wanted to expand the conversation in relation to hands acting similarly to side reins - yea or nay?

[QUOTE=LilyandBaron;8965494]
In light of this conversation about how to hold the hands when ridden, what are opinions of the use of side reins? I’ve had many trainers compare the use of the hands to side reins - side reins can’t lift, widen, whatever- they are softly elastic but don’t move up, down and all around. I know there is debate about them, but for those commenting on this thread, wanted to expand the conversation in relation to hands acting similarly to side reins - yea or nay?[/QUOTE]

I don’t use side reins on any of my horses at this point, so I don’t want me hands to be side reins either.

I’m not necessarily opposed to them - they have many trainers I highly respect using them, classically are used in teaching piaffe, etc. I’m just not at a point where I’m using the ones I own on anyone.

[QUOTE=LilyandBaron;8965494]
In light of this conversation about how to hold the hands when ridden, what are opinions of the use of side reins? I’ve had many trainers compare the use of the hands to side reins - side reins can’t lift, widen, whatever- they are softly elastic but don’t move up, down and all around. I know there is debate about them, but for those commenting on this thread, wanted to expand the conversation in relation to hands acting similarly to side reins - yea or nay?[/QUOTE]

I don’t use them myself, but I think side reins have some applications. However, only on horses who already know how to work into contact. Say if you were giving seat lessons on a schoolmaster, you could use side reins to encourage proper self carriage without having to worry about the uneducated hands of the rider messing up the horse. Likewise warming up a well schooled horse on the lunge may be made more efficient with side reins.

However, I don’t think that using side reins on a green horse is a good idea. If the horse doesn’t understand how to work into contact properly, what benefits would side reins have? I think there’s a greater chance of the horse working improperly in that scenario than working properly.

[QUOTE=belgianWBLuver;8964519]
Back on subject, Interestingly enough, I was taught, as a groom, years ago by Henriquet to lower the hands to get an unsubmissive horse (an OTTB) to lower his head.
It was difficult work at best, and never really produced softness from the jaw, or flexion from the poll.
Here is a paragraph from this article - which is in fact Karl’s letter to Henriquet:

[B]"THE “LOW HANDS” OPTION

By virtue of a simplistic concept of the “mise-en-main”, limited to the unconditional “ramener” (end and means), the rider sets his hands low (some even hunch themselves up on the horse to put their hands at the knee level). This gives a crude action on the tongue (a hypersensitive organ). The horse tries to escape this pain by going above the hand. The rider resists (when he doesn’t pull) and pushes to overcome the perverse effects of this hand brake. A vicious cycle ensues. We all know what follows… palliatives of all kinds. This approach condemns itself simply by the fact that it requires the systematic use of instruments of coercion (side reins on the lunge, draw reins, specially designed crank nosebands, tight curb chains, etc.)…"
[/B]
I, later, abandoned this “Low Hands” methode and found the other methode beginning with relaxation of the horse’s jaw, etc. - described in Karl’s article to work well for me on some horses.
Again, some horses are just naturally soft, in correct flexion, and forward and remain that way. Others need help and this methode, I have found works in many cases.[/QUOTE]

Ie
I enjoyed PK’s article and more on that in a minute, but I wanted to address the bolded part of the article. I had asked a question here maybe last year about using side reins and the effect of the bit in the mouth because the placement of the side reins would mimic the “wide and low” action of the hand (or maybe people came up with “wide and low” to mimic side reins), yet side reins don’t offer timing, feel, and appropriate release to teach the horse what we want. No one was able to give me the answer or discussion I was hoping for. Perhaps my question wasn’t worded well or misunderstood. The article gave me just a little bit of discussion on that, but I’d be interested in more.

Anyway, I have employed the “high hand” method and found it very useful. I think I caught onto it by perhaps watching a PK video? Anyway, my horses have been MUCH more soft and responsive to that than to any sort of fixing of the hand or having the hands low. I don’t go around with my hands held high, but employ a lifting of the inside rein until I get a change (flexion) and then release and bring my hands back to a neutral position. If the horse’s head goes up, so do my hands - I do not try to fight by bringing my hands down and trying to use them like side reins. The lifting is much softer and IME makes for a clearer aid to the horse.

Interestingly enough, the people I learned this from in person are true horsemen of the cowboy variety. I have had more education about hands and (snaffle) rein usage from them than from any dressage instructor(s) that I’ve worked with for years.

I also teach this to my horses from the ground before I use it under saddle. It doesn’t take much, just a couple minutes before mounting, and they learn it very quickly.

[QUOTE=LilyandBaron;8965494]
In light of this conversation about how to hold the hands when ridden, what are opinions of the use of side reins? I’ve had many trainers compare the use of the hands to side reins - side reins can’t lift, widen, whatever- they are softly elastic but don’t move up, down and all around. I know there is debate about them, but for those commenting on this thread, wanted to expand the conversation in relation to hands acting similarly to side reins - yea or nay?[/QUOTE]

Funny you ask . . . see what I wrote above before reading your post. I do not use side reins on my horses. I don’t think side reins are “softly elastic” - I think because they are in a fixed position, they bounce in the horse’s mouth unless he learns to fix his head in such a position to avoid that. And fixing the head may produce the “outline” of a “frame” (hate that word), but any fixing produces tension.

That’s just my opinion. I think I am in the minority, as there are many trainers and riders who use side reins and are fans. I am not a fan. They have been used in the past on one of my horses by a trainer. I do not like them (and left that trainer years ago and haven’t used them since), I do not use them, and I don’t expect I ever will. I would rather my training take longer so that my horses and I develop feel together and a common language than to force their head in a position that they can’t get out of.

[QUOTE=LilyandBaron;8965494]
In light of this conversation about how to hold the hands when ridden, what are opinions of the use of side reins? I’ve had many trainers compare the use of the hands to side reins - side reins can’t lift, widen, whatever- they are softly elastic but don’t move up, down and all around. I know there is debate about them, but for those commenting on this thread, wanted to expand the conversation in relation to hands acting similarly to side reins - yea or nay?[/QUOTE]

I use side reins, judiciously. On my particular horse, I use them as more of a suggestion or guideline while lunging. I don’t want him dinking around with his head up in the air and his hind legs trailing while he dives in and out with his body. They are adjusted to a proper length so that IF I do my job, he is reaching out (not BTV and curled) into the contact, traveling straight and working from behind. My long lining skills are rusty these days, but I would use that instead of side reins in most cases. I don’t use my hands similarly to side reins, and I don’t use lunging as “play time” or turnout time. I work to keep him active. FWIW, I maybe lunge this horse 2-3 times a month so it’s not like he’s being drilled 5 days a week in side reins, it’s just what I use as an alternative when I can’t actually ride for whatever reason. I see far more damage done by trainers lunging in a pessoa rig or similar gadget 3+ days a week. I do not like that system one bit, it’s like draw reins on steroids.

[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;8965827]
Funny you ask . . . see what I wrote above before reading your post. I do not use side reins on my horses. I don’t think side reins are “softly elastic” - I think because they are in a fixed position, they bounce in the horse’s mouth unless he learns to fix his head in such a position to avoid that. And fixing the head may produce the “outline” of a “frame” (hate that word), but any fixing produces tension.

That’s just my opinion. I think I am in the minority, as there are many trainers and riders who use side reins and are fans. I am not a fan. They have been used in the past on one of my horses by a trainer. I do not like them (and left that trainer years ago and haven’t used them since), I do not use them, and I don’t expect I ever will. I would rather my training take longer so that my horses and I develop feel together and a common language than to force their head in a position that they can’t get out of.[/QUOTE]

Yes, agree…those who say its more like side reins TEND to be of the German school Karl is of the french school. while I like aspects of the SR idea, it is not giving nor true elasticity- not dynamic enough for me to respond to changes from the horse.

The good side of this hands like SR idea are the support, consistency and even-ness L and R. Don’t fiddle and don’t get too handsy. For beginners that is enough to take on.

my horse now I don’t really use SR much in longing, more in hand work and I will do things like widen or lift up to raise the bit. I’m at a place now where I want more refinement, my horse is very very very prone to BTV/faking lightness/poll low so SR just encourage that even if he is forward.

I don’t prescribe to a certain school anymore, primarily trained German but add in what works from different places as needed.

[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;8965827]
Funny you ask . . . see what I wrote above before reading your post. I do not use side reins on my horses. I don’t think side reins are “softly elastic” - I think because they are in a fixed position, they bounce in the horse’s mouth unless he learns to fix his head in such a position to avoid that. And fixing the head may produce the “outline” of a “frame” (hate that word), but any fixing produces tension.

That’s just my opinion. I think I am in the minority, as there are many trainers and riders who use side reins and are fans. I am not a fan. They have been used in the past on one of my horses by a trainer. I do not like them (and left that trainer years ago and haven’t used them since), I do not use them, and I don’t expect I ever will. I would rather my training take longer so that my horses and I develop feel together and a common language than to force their head in a position that they can’t get out of.[/QUOTE]

I’ll preface with - every horse is different and every good trainer adapts different methodes to different horses. And if the methode produces a good horse then it works…

I lunge in side reins on some horses. Only those who are really getting the light contact, have good push and have good flexion from the pole.

My guy is there at the moment. I’ll lunge him occasionally (once a week or at a show if he is spooky & looky) in a side rein that has a little elastic in it. The inside rein is always a little shorter than the outside. But neither of the reins are really short. INO they allow the horse to move around a little, have a nice relaxed jaw yet encourage the flexion from the pole.

I have him perform large circles to smaller ones and back out using his bend and inside hind. Go straight around the arena (while I walk really fast or jog) go over poles on the ground. Lots and lots of transitions.

I also use the flexions and in hand work frequently on all horses, more frequently than lunging.

On the babies I use a loose bungee attached to the girth going btw the front legs and around the pole and to the bit. I want to keep their jaw relaxed. They do all the same exercises as above ramping up the difficultly slowly but surely.

On a horse that is already BTV ( aka curls), never side reins or bungees. I try to rebuild this kind of horse from zero, with the flexions, in hand work and ridden work (with higher that usual hands to get him to open his head and neck, stretch to the bit and stretch his back, push from behind. Takes lots and lots of time…

I have a terrible habit of this!! One of my horses is super tricky in the contact (imagine trying to push a wet noodle up to the contact, that is what it’s like!!) so I do find myself contorting into all sorts of weird positions to compensate. I’ve seen riders go the other way too, with low fixed hands. I bet you that is a compensation too. I wonder if it is all a core strength issue.

I don’t really like side reins - but perhaps I have not seen them used well.

These are two different things, IME: riders with funky hand position that they revert to automatically, and can’t fix, and skilled trainers deliberately moving the hand in a “non-standard” way (up, down, out, etc) to respond to a specific situation, then reverted to basic/normal/neutral position. If you watch someone for a bit IRL, it’s usually easy enough to see which it is. The skilled trainer gets a result, then goes back to a standard hand set. The funky ammie has hands all over the place, isn’t getting a specific result, and often isn’t aware what their hands are doing. This also applies to rein aids like half halt or flexion. And, really to leg aids as well. Actually to every aspect of riding!

You can’t necessarily tell from a still photo or even a short bit of video, which it is.

And you can’t tell except by observation over time, if the technique is having a good effect on the horse.

There are lots of excellent reasons why belly-button height hands are the correct standard for riding a schooled horse, and are drilled into every lesson student. But that doesn’t mean you can’t effectively use the reins in some other direction, on purpose, if you have independent hands.

As far as sidereins go, I’ve never seen them used well in person, and I have never seen a video of them being used well on a green horse. By which I mean in a manner that produces a horse that is light to the bit and not rolled behind. I’ve seen videos of them being used OK on school masters, but that doesn’t tell me anything about their effectiveness on a green horse, which is what matters. The better trainers I know don’t use them, so I’ve had no chance to observe how that would work. The people I have seen use them to get a “round” headset behind the vertical on a green horse, and then ride in that headset all the time. So while I feel that I can’t 100 % rule them out in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing, I haven’t had a chance to see that in person yet.

Not quite on topic, but going along the side rein theme: I was taught in ground driving to have the outside rein so loose it literally bounces off the rear fetlocks. The inside line must have contact (no letting your horse fall in) and to focus my eyes on the feet. Making sure that the tempo, the length of stride, and a relaxed back were in order. My instructor said don’t worry about the head or neck, don’t seek a rein connection, instead look to have the steps rhythmic and the rear feet stepping into the impressions left by the front (the way some horses are built makes that impossible for them but at least encourage them to extend their stride as much as possible).

One I had my horse moving forward with good rhythm and footfalls I could gently take up the outside rein. He would be ready for that contact, that connection from me. When I would glance at his head, he had found the balance, he had himself in the perfect “working frame”.

I only got to work with that instructor a few times over the summer. She retired from her regular job and moved to Mexico. As a amateur dressage enthusiast those long line lessons taught me that horses can learn and understand connection faster than the rider. I’m still dealing with my hands, my core, my hips, etc. My horse is much better than me!

I have used side reins in the past, but I won’t ever again, I will only use long lines.