Hands held too high, curling behind contact/vertical, Karl Phillipe article

[Color_of_Light]

This is bugging me. Hold your hands too high and your horse curls. How do riders and instructors miss this basic? Recently I’ve seen some riders holding the hands much too high and the horse is breaking at the 3rd vertebrae, curling behind the vertical as a result. And then sometimes the rider complains that the horse is curling, blames it on the horse. In looking at some videos, the rider is on several different horses, with the same exaggerated high hand posture, and all the horses were curling up behind the vertical, disconnected. Totally different rider and video, same too high hand posture and same curling reaction in the horse. At one point, the rider even tries to correct her curling horse by bumping it in the mouth by lifting her hands up. Horse moves down from the up pressure, dives even more. Attempt at a pirouette with the horse curled results in a horse not on hind legs in pirouette. In another part of the video a second rider rides next to the first rider. First rider hands too high, horse is curling, disconnected front to back. Second rider correct hands, horse is working over it’s back, nicely connected back to front.

Can we discus the mechanics of what happens to the bit in the horse’s mount when the rider holds the hands too high and above the “connection”, the straight line from mouth to elbow? Correct me if I’ve got the bit mechanics wrong. When the hand is held too high and above the straight line, the bit is lifted in the horse’s mouth. Bit comes against the soft tissue of the upper bars and upper lips. As the corners of the bit lift up, the joint of the bit goes down and puts pressure on the tongue. In order to get away from the pressure and discomfort, the horse curls behind the bit.

Similar effect for dropping the hands below the straight line. Hand push downwards, bit goes against lower bars and lower lips, bit joint goes upwards. Some horses raise head to get away, others learn to curl behind the pressure.

There are very good reasons why there should be a straight line from the horse’s mouth to the riders elbow. First, the bit needs to sit correctly in the horse’s mouth. There needs to be room for the horse’s hind legs to step under, using the back. If curled, the horse can’t step through or use back as it should. Put the hands in the correct place, ride the horse into the hand and the horse will stop curling/dropping the contact. As long as the horse keeps being punished with the bit, it will keep trying to get away from the pressure and curl behind the contact.

[Foxtail]

It’s important to make the distinction between “hands held too high” and “hands held appropriately high for the position of the neck.” Many people are taught to keep their hands in their laps – that raising the hand at all is incorrect (I certainly was, back in the day). This certainly incites the horse to curl. Without a doubt keeping one’s hands in a fixed, low position will put pressure on the tongue and bars.

I’m not sure if lifting the hand would cause pressure to be put on the tongue or bars if the bit is fitted properly. I suspect the issue may be that, if the hand is held perpetually high, the horse is always searching for the right answer for the release of pressure on the corners of the mouth, and curling may provide at least a modicum of relief. Or perhaps the horse wasn’t properly schooled for that sort of an aid, and is giving the same response as he would for a more backwards (as in direction) action of the hand.

I use a lifting hand more often than not when I school. The action takes different forms, depending on what I’m asking for, but I teach the horse the meanings of my aids from the ground first, always. For example, I teach that if I lift the bit, I expect the horse to raise their neck from its base. Under saddle, the height of my hands, as well as the lengths of my reins, are dictated by the height and position of the neck. Do my hands end up in occasionally comical positions? Yes, but usually when that happens I’m trying to correct a horse going way above the bit, or I’m trying to clarify a brand new concept. But as soon as I get the answer I want, even if it’s just a whisper of an answer, my hands go back to an appropriate position.

I agree though that a lifting action is the wrong thing to do when a horse is curling. I don’t think there’s any definite rein action that will help a horse who’s curling. The action one takes to correct a horse who’s curling depends on the reasons for it, but when a horse gets behind the bit you’ve lost a lot of efficacy of the hands.

[Color_of_Light]

I found this diagram that shows rein direction (hands) in blue and the horse’s response in how he’s carrying the bit

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-p61fubw6suI/VYyYnis4W3I/AAAAAAAAAOs/-RZuLxmARWE/s1600/Weighted%2Bbits.jpg..jpg

[Color_of_Light]

[QUOTE=Foxtail;8961559]
It’s important to make the distinction between “hands held too high” and “hands held appropriately high for the position of the neck.” Many people are taught to keep their hands in their laps – that raising the hand at all is incorrect (I certainly was, back in the day). This certainly incites the horse to curl. Without a doubt keeping one’s hands in a fixed, low position will put pressure on the tongue and bars.

I’m not sure if lifting the hand would cause pressure to be put on the tongue or bars if the bit is fitted properly. I suspect the issue may be that, if the hand is held perpetually high, the horse is always searching for the right answer for the release of pressure on the corners of the mouth, and curling may provide at least a modicum of relief. Or perhaps the horse wasn’t properly schooled for that sort of an aid, and is giving the same response as he would for a more backwards (as in direction) action of the hand.

I use a lifting hand more often than not when I school. The action takes different forms, depending on what I’m asking for, but I teach the horse the meanings of my aids from the ground first, always. For example, I teach that if I lift the bit, I expect the horse to raise their neck from its base. Under saddle, the height of my hands, as well as the lengths of my reins, are dictated by the height and position of the neck. Do my hands end up in occasionally comical positions? Yes, but usually when that happens I’m trying to correct a horse going way above the bit, or I’m trying to clarify a brand new concept. But as soon as I get the answer I want, even if it’s just a whisper of an answer, my hands go back to an appropriate position. Yes, a release

I agree though that a lifting action is the wrong thing to do when a horse is curling. I don’t think there’s any definite rein action that will help a horse who’s curling. The action one takes to correct a horse who’s curling depends on the reasons for it, but when a horse gets behind the bit you’ve lost a lot of efficacy of the hands.[/QUOTE]

dd

[QUOTE=Foxtail;8961559]It’s important to make the distinction between “hands held too high” When the straight line is not straight and has become a broken line, connection is lost and “hands held appropriately high for the position of the neck.” As long as the line is straight, not broken Many people are taught to keep their hands in their laps – that raising the hand at all is incorrect (I certainly was, back in the day). That’s what I don’t understand. Why teach broken line, disconnection? This certainly incites the horse to curl. Without a doubt keeping one’s hands in a fixed, low position will put pressure on the tongue and bars. And high position puts pressure on the tongue and bars.

I’m not sure if lifting the hand would cause pressure to be put on the tongue or bars if the bit is fitted properly. I suspect the issue may be that, if the hand is held perpetually high, the horse is always searching for the right answer for the release of pressure on the corners of the mouth, and curling may provide at least a modicum of relief. Or perhaps the horse wasn’t properly schooled for that sort of an aid, and is giving the same response as he would for a more backwards (as in direction) action of the hand.

I use a lifting hand more often than not when I school. The action takes different forms, depending on what I’m asking for, but I teach the horse the meanings of my aids from the ground first, always. For example, I teach that if I lift the bit, I expect the horse to raise their neck from its base. Under saddle, the height of my hands, as well as the lengths of my reins, are dictated by the height and position of the neck. Do my hands end up in occasionally comical positions? Yes, but usually when that happens I’m trying to correct a horse going way above the bit, or I’m trying to clarify a brand new concept. But as soon as I get the answer I want, even if it’s just a whisper of an answer, my hands go back to an appropriate position. Yes a release

I agree though that a lifting action is the wrong thing to do when a horse is curling. I don’t think there’s any definite rein action that will help a horse who’s curling. Hands neutral and encouraging forward not back, correct rein length, apply leg to activate hind leg The action one takes to correct a horse who’s curling depends on the reasons for it, but when a horse gets behind the bit you’ve lost a lot of efficacy of the hands. Horses don’t usually curl by themselves. It takes a bit, hand action, position.If rider is not aware they caused it, usually not aware of how to correct it. [/QUOTE]

[Heinz_57]

[QUOTE=Color of Light;8961513]
This is bugging me. Hold your hands too high and your horse curls. How do riders and instructors miss this basic? Recently I’ve seen some riders holding the hands much too high and the horse is breaking at the 3rd vertebrae, curling behind the vertical as a result. And then sometimes the rider complains that the horse is curling, blames it on the horse. In looking at some videos, the rider is on several different horses, with the same exaggerated high hand posture, and all the horses were curling up behind the vertical, disconnected. Totally different rider and video, same too high hand posture and same curling reaction in the horse. At one point, the rider even tries to correct her curling horse by bumping it in the mouth by lifting her hands up. Horse moves down from the up pressure, dives even more. Attempt at a pirouette with the horse curled results in a horse not on hind legs in pirouette. In another part of the video a second rider rides next to the first rider. First rider hands too high, horse is curling, disconnected front to back. Second rider correct hands, horse is working over it’s back, nicely connected back to front.

Can we discus the mechanics of what happens to the bit in the horse’s mount when the rider holds the hands too high and above the “connection”, the straight line from mouth to elbow? Correct me if I’ve got the bit mechanics wrong. When the hand is held too high and above the straight line, the bit is lifted in the horse’s mouth. Bit comes against the soft tissue of the upper bars and upper lips. As the corners of the bit lift up, the joint of the bit goes down and puts pressure on the tongue. In order to get away from the pressure and discomfort, the horse curls behind the bit.

Similar effect for dropping the hands below the straight line. Hand push downwards, bit goes against lower bars and lower lips, bit joint goes upwards. Some horses raise head to get away, others learn to curl behind the pressure.

There are very good reasons why there should be a straight line from the horse’s mouth to the riders elbow. First, the bit needs to sit correctly in the horse’s mouth. There needs to be room for the horse’s hind legs to step under, using the back. If curled, the horse can’t step through or use back as it should. Put the hands in the correct place, ride the horse into the hand and the horse will stop curling/dropping the contact. As long as the horse keeps being punished with the bit, it will keep trying to get away from the pressure and curl behind the contact.[/QUOTE]

Honestly, I would rather see hands slightly too high over the whole planted, low hand/nearly straight elbow nonsense I see lots of [lower level] trainers teaching these days. I was a WS for a trainer for a short stint and one of the reasons I quit was because she would yell at me non-stop to plant my hands on every horse - from greener than grass to her supposed “upper level” horses. I’m no UL rider but even I know that you won’t create a proper over-the-back connection by pulling the horse’s head down.

The horses you describe sound like they have either been ridden with draw reins or spent a lot of time in some other gadget-y setup. Or just plain taught the erroneous method of “pull on the reins = give in the mouth”. I don’t think having the hands a bit high is going to affect the mechanics of it all that much, maybe more action on the corners of the lips instead of the bars, unless you are using a double or something where the cheek is going to rotate like a baucher.

Why teach incorrect methods? Shortcuts get quick results that look pretty to the uneducated eye. Used a lot on sale horses, horses who will never move out of the lower levels, etc. The only other reason I can think of is ignorance. Trainers that truly think it is “correct”.

[Color_of_Light]

[QUOTE=Heinz 57;8961893]
Honestly, I would rather see hands slightly too high over the whole planted, low hand/nearly straight elbow nonsense I see lots of [lower level] trainers teaching these days. I was a WS for a trainer for a short stint and one of the reasons I quit was because she would yell at me non-stop to plant my hands on every horse That’s aweful!! - from greener than grass to her supposed “upper level” horses. I’m no UL rider but even I know that you won’t create a proper over-the-back connection by pulling the horse’s head down.

The horses you describe sound like they have either been ridden with draw reins or spent a lot of time in some other gadget-y setup. IDK. It was both riders standard style. The first was on several horses with hands Harley Davidson style on all of them. All horses responded the same way. Or just plain taught the erroneous method of “pull on the reins = give in the mouth”. I don’t think having the hands a bit high is going to affect the mechanics of it all that much, See the diagram. I think I’ve seen some other diagrams from bit manufactures who have created diagrams of how bits effect the horse. maybe more action on the corners of the lips instead of the bars. I need to try to find them, unless you are using a double or something where the cheek is going to rotate like a baucher. These horses were in snaffles. The second rider was first in a snaffle, then the horse was later in a double. Same hands, different bit. Same response.

Why teach incorrect methods? Shortcuts get quick results that look pretty to the uneducated eye. Breaking at 3rd vertebrae, behind the vertical just prevents the horse from using it’s body, doesn’t it? Used a lot on sale horses, horses who will never move out of the lower levels, etc. The only other reason I can think of is ignorance. YES Trainers that truly think it is “correct”.[/QUOTE]

.

[Color_of_Light]

221 looks, but no other discussion about dressage connection except for two people in the Dressage Forum? I would hope that more dressage riders would want to discuss hand position and correct equitation, and cause and effect.

I found an article by Karl Phillipe, where he discusses use of low hand, a little bit about high hands. Because he puts emphasis on RELEASE, the horse goes forward and down.

I think the high handedness I refer to results in down and back because there is no release and the hands are held at a constant elevated position.

"If he raises his mouth above the hand, bring the hands higher than the mouth to establish a frank contact on the corners of the lips (which does not cause pain).

Going beyond the yielding of the jaw, if the rider increases the tension of the reins gradually upwards, it will cause the horse to gradually take them forwards and down. The rider releases proportionally, while maintaining the contact (as he would over a jump).

By the controlled extension of the neck, the horse learns to stretch into his reins and round his topline in another way."

Article, drawings https://www.writingofriding.com/in-the-media/philippe-karl-master-article/

[Gestalt]

It’s been hard, very hard, for me to “carry my hands”. I rode western as a kid and then hunters, so the tendency is to go low vs high. The other problem I have to overcome is that bumping the horse up thing. Learned that in hunters. Shortcut that in the long run created a big issue.

A bad habit can sure be a bugger to break! So I feel for that rider.

[digihorse]

There is an old saying to raise the hand to lower the head and lower the hand to raise the head (with accompanying leg). I would rather the hand be high than low and acting always on the bars and framing the horse. The higher hand “could” also entice the horse to reach for the bit and stretch… that is an art though, not often taught today and requires takt and leg to keep the horse coming forward. At this moment in time, I think the wide hands bug me more. Wide and low are big no nos. But very common.

[Foxtail]

[QUOTE=digihorse;8962149]
There is an old saying to raise the hand to lower the head and lower the hand to raise the head (with accompanying leg). I would rather the hand be high than low and acting always on the bars and framing the horse. The higher hand “could” also entice the horse to reach for the bit and stretch… that is an art though, not often taught today and requires takt and leg to keep the horse coming forward. At this moment in time, I think the wide hands bug me more. Wide and low are big no nos. But very common.[/QUOTE]

I was taught how to encourage stretch via raising the hand. It’s a great tool to have, and once you know what to feel for it’s not difficult, but learning how is an arduous task.

[kande04]

Ultimately, what we get is what we reward, so we can teach them to push against the bit with either high or low hands, or we can teach them to yield to the bit with either high or low hands.

Which method we choose may facilitate teaching them what we want, but considering that some swear by high hands and some low that’s pretty good evidence for the idea that it’s not the height of the hands but the way they’re used.

I’ve done both, both ways, and see very little advantage to either method. They both work, and how well each works is way more dependent on how the method is applied than on which method.

[ideayoda]

In short a rider should always have a straight line to the horse’s mouth, it is the ‘neutral’. Low hands (breaking the line downward) acts onto the bars, and forces precipitous flexion (or the horse will repeatedly resist the pains by hollowing); whereas high hands will also close the throat latch too easily.

That said there is a huge difference between a (vertical) half halt (which acts on the corners of the lips) which is calculated to open the throat latch change the balance and bearing. HH are used for a step, the rider returns to neutral, and the horse remains mobile in the jaw and in front of the vertical.

Very few riders ride with high hands, most are told to place them low which also corrupts their alignment, straightens the elbows, and breaks the line from elbow to horse’s mouth (and causes the hand to act on the bars) which causes curling just as much as too high). The upper arm MUST hang vertically and relaxed for the seat to have effectivity and alignment.

For sure there is a difference between the bit being lifted up (the action of a hh for a step) into the lips, and holding it there. And certainly their are many types of hh bilateral (which is lifting and allowing), diagonal, and lateral. Each have a purpose.

However a hh should not ever be a sustained action, or it is not a hh it would merely be a torquing pressure (just as holding a horse low/closed/compresed is).

"Similar effect for dropping the hands below the straight line. Hand push downwards, bit goes against lower bars and lower lips, bit joint goes upwards. Some horses raise head to get away, others learn to curl behind the pressure. " Made only worse by the (winner’s) recommendations of l/r actions to close and to supposedly stretch the horse. Just as misbegotten.

The horse should mobilize the jaw, softly chew and swallow. It is the degree of axial rotation, and progressive collectability which allows for longitudinal flexion. The horse works into the connection, the horse does not ‘give to the bit’.

[Foxtail]

[QUOTE=Heinz 57;8961893]
Why teach incorrect methods? Shortcuts get quick results that look pretty to the uneducated eye. Used a lot on sale horses, horses who will never move out of the lower levels, etc. The only other reason I can think of is ignorance. Trainers that truly think it is “correct”.[/QUOTE]

People also confuse cause and effect quite often. I’ll bet that also contributes to the problem.

[netg]

The OP is distinctly incorrect on how a bit works. The Philippe Karl article explains correctly how a bit works - really good article I want to look at in more detail later.

[QUOTE=digihorse;8962149]
There is an old saying to raise the hand to lower the head and lower the hand to raise the head (with accompanying leg). I would rather the hand be high than low and acting always on the bars and framing the horse. The higher hand “could” also entice the horse to reach for the bit and stretch… that is an art though, not often taught today and requires takt and leg to keep the horse coming forward. At this moment in time, I think the wide hands bug me more. Wide and low are big no nos. But very common.[/QUOTE]

Yep.

With my gelding who is a bad tuck-and-buck type dating back to issues well before I had him, the high hand encourages open throatlatch and reaching toward the bit. As noted by ideayoda, it is through the use of momentary lifts, and keeping the connection straight line most of the time. If a horse has its nose behind the vertical, using a straight line will actually still act on the bars, so a lift of hands to break that line may be necessary to get the bit to work on the corners of the mouth and never on the bars. There is a distinctly different feeling when the bit is working on the bars of the mouth, and a rider should be educated by her instructor on when the contact is correct and when not in order to ensure the bars are not abused.

[ideayoda]

A STEADILY high hand (breaking the line upward) per se encourages precipitous flexion. A (vertical) hh changes balance and bearing. But the rider must go back to neutral.

As far as extension of the neck (which follows from mobility of the jaw and proper bit acceptance), it comes from lateral flexibility. The horse is flexed laterally, mobilizes the jaw, and the outside rein allows the horse to ‘chew the reins from the hand’ and lengthen (it is NOT stretching) in millimeters or more. As the horse goes lower it MUST open the throat latch.

The thing is these steps (along with allowing a horse to be up and VERY open) in the first place were always well known and used by all the schools. It is the last 30+ years which have bred compressed postures in a low position. That will always block a swinging back, and a proper tempo.

[Scribbler]

I don’t see many dressage riders with hands consistently too high. I do see a current trend for low hands, below the withers even, with straight arms braces downwards, as if the hands need to replicate the position of the side reins these horses are being schooled in on the longe.

I see saddle seat riders with consistently high hands, though perhaps not higher than the head set of the horse.

I understand a “neutral” hand position is around your belly button, with bent elbows held close to your sides, as you’d be taught by a good jumper coach. This is not “high hands,” just correct riding.

That said, hand position is not the only thing, nor perhaps the primary thing, in where the horse puts it’s head. And, it’s important to remember, the head set is not the primary indicator of how the horse is carrying his body, and whether the horse is in balance. You need to look at the back, the hind legs, etc. not just the head.

I’m familiar with the Philippe Karl system. The finished horse is ridden with hands in neutral, which may or may not look like “high hands” depending on what you are used to. He has however re-introduced something similar to the old “combing the reins” dressage technique, and momentary lifting the hand for flexions. Here the hands do go higher than neutral for a specific purpose. If someone is doing the techniques correctly, this is momentary. If they aren’t, well, they aren’t.

Western trainers do a similar thing on green horses, big wide high hand movements with a side pull or halter.

So what you see in a photo, video, or even just in a glance at a trainer, needs to be taken in context. What do they think they are achieving? What are they really achieving? What explanation can they give if you ask them nicely?

Without seeing the examples that interested the OP, it’s hard to say anything concrete about what she saw.

Edited to add: looked at OP’s post again and it sounds like the rider she is observing makes a number of errors, hard to say if high hands is the foundational one, or if the trainer is just clueless overall.

[Heinz_57]

[QUOTE=Foxtail;8962661]
People also confuse cause and effect quite often. I’ll bet that also contributes to the problem.[/QUOTE]

Certainly. I have been out of the showing game due to finances the last few years, but I have attended a fair number of clinics and shows as a spectator and I am still quite perplexed at the number of high scoring rides where the horse is perpetually and grossly behind the vertical, especially at the lower levels. I acknowledge that one must look at what the entire body is doing as a whole, but it seems like it is not such an egregious fault as it used to be.

This is all, of course, my own personal opinion based on observations made in my local area, only. And it is slightly off the topic at hand, so I won’t hijack the OP’s thread with my tangent.

[Color_of_Light]

[QUOTE=netg;8962826]
The OP is distinctly incorrect on how a bit works. The Philippe Karl article explains correctly how a bit works - really good article I want to look at in more detail later.

Yep.

With my gelding who is a bad tuck-and-buck type dating back to issues well before I had him, the high hand encourages open throatlatch and reaching toward the bit. . That’s the opposite of what happens when lifting the hands. As ideayoda said, high hand closes the throatlatch, which is what I have pointed out, but not is as such specific terms (throatlatch closes when a horse curls) As noted by ideayoda, it is through the use of momentary lifts, and keeping the connection straight line most of the time. If a horse has its nose behind the vertical, using a straight line will actually still act on the bars, so a lift of hands to break that line may be necessary to get the bit to work on the corners of the mouth and never on the bars. There is a distinctly different feeling when the bit is working on the bars of the mouth, and a rider should be educated by her instructor on when the contact is correct and when not in order to ensure the bars are not abused.[/QUOTE]

OK, I’ll take that. :o Can you provide an explanation as to what I got wrong, and what the correct mechanics are? I did say “upper bars of the mouth”, which does not technically exist (according to equine anatomy). Opposite of the lower bar is a stretch of toothless area that really should have a name. OK, so maybe a bit could not really make contact with that area. If lifting the hands -closes- the throatlatch, can you explain the mechanics of the bit and how that closing might be achieved? Upwards hand lifts the bit rings upwards on the lifts. To me, the mouth piece would go down against the tongue.

[belgianWBLuver]

[QUOTE=netg;8962826]
The OP is distinctly incorrect on how a bit works. The Philippe Karl article explains correctly how a bit works - really good article I want to look at in more detail later.

Yep.

With my gelding who is a bad tuck-and-buck type dating back to issues well before I had him, the high hand encourages open throatlatch and reaching toward the bit. As noted by ideayoda, it is through the use of momentary lifts, and keeping the connection straight line most of the time. If a horse has its nose behind the vertical, using a straight line will actually still act on the bars, so a lift of hands to break that line may be necessary to get the bit to work on the corners of the mouth and never on the bars. There is a distinctly different feeling when the bit is working on the bars of the mouth, and a rider should be educated by her instructor on when the contact is correct and when not in order to ensure the bars are not abused.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=ideayoda;8962915]A STEADILY high hand (breaking the line upward) per se encourages precipitous flexion. A (vertical) hh changes balance and bearing. But the rider must go back to neutral.

As far as extension of the neck (which follows from mobility of the jaw and proper bit acceptance), it comes from lateral flexibility. The horse is flexed laterally, mobilizes the jaw, and the outside rein allows the horse to ‘chew the reins from the hand’ and lengthen (it is NOT stretching) in millimeters or more. As the horse goes lower it MUST open the throat latch.

The thing is these steps (along with allowing a horse to be up and VERY open) in the first place were always well known and used by all the schools. It is the last 30+ years which have bred compressed postures in a low position. That will always block a swinging back, and a proper tempo.[/QUOTE]

Thx guys and the OP also - really enjoying this thread with a cup of coffee and enjoyed reading your answers.
I’ve taken the time to teach my gelding through the flexions, then in hand work, then ridden work, to reach for the bit and the connection with a slightly higher hand and when I get that connection - hand returns to a lower neutral position. Whenever he looses focus and raises the head, hands go up, more leg and seat is applied. Then he feels the connection, lowers his head to normal and hands follow to neutral. Of course the seat and leg are accompanying to maintain impulsion and that coupled with the connection creates a wonderful light airy forward energy which some call schwung.
Honestly the feeling is like crack and I want more!!!

[Color_of_Light]

[QUOTE=ideayoda;8962653]
In short a rider should always have a straight line to the horse’s mouth, it is the ‘neutral’. Low hands (breaking the line downward) acts onto the bars, and forces precipitous flexion (or the horse will repeatedly resist the pains by hollowing); whereas high hands will also close the throat latch too easily.

That said there is a huge difference between a (vertical) half halt (which acts on the corners of the lips) which is calculated to open the throat latch change the balance and bearing. HH are used for a step, the rider returns to neutral, and the horse remains mobile in the jaw and in front of the vertical.

Very few riders ride with high hands, most are told to place them low which also corrupts their alignment, straightens the elbows, and breaks the line from elbow to horse’s mouth (and causes the hand to act on the bars) which causes curling just as much as too high). The upper arm MUST hang vertically (Could it be said that the lower arm hinges on a close to horizontal plane? If hands are too high, the plane slopes upwards, if hands are too low, the plane slopes downwards.) and relaxed for the seat to have effectivity and alignment.

For sure there is a difference between the bit being lifted up (the action of a hh for a step) into the lips, and holding it there. And certainly their are many types of hh bilateral (which is lifting and allowing), diagonal, and lateral. Each have a purpose.

However a hh should not ever be a sustained action, or it is not a hh it would merely be a torquing pressure (just as holding a horse low/closed/compresed is).

"Similar effect for dropping the hands below the straight line. Hand push downwards, bit goes against lower bars and lower lips, bit joint goes upwards. Some horses raise head to get away, others learn to curl behind the pressure. " Made only worse by the (winner’s) recommendations of l/r actions to close and to supposedly stretch the horse. Just as misbegotten.

The horse should mobilize the jaw, softly chew and swallow. It is the degree of axial rotation, and progressive collectability which allows for longitudinal flexion. The horse works into the connection, the horse does not ‘give to the bit’.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for supporting my post and providing your very insightful comments.