Hanoverian Pedigree Question

[JFS]

I just bought a my first Hanoverian (I’m a TB person through & through) and was told that the mare was an approved TB line. I just received his ‘certificate of pedigree’ and the dam is said to be Hanoverian. Then a little further down the pedigree rather than a breed it says XX. I did a search on pedigree query and couldn’t find any of them listed as TB’s or Hanoverian. So my question, how do you know if the Hanoverian has any TB in it.

The sire is Weltebekannt by Weltmeyer and the dam is American Chocolate by Ansturm and out of Hot Chocolate. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks

Jackie

[not_again]

This may help:
http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=185148

http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=224411

Is this the correct Hot Chocolate?
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/hot+chocolate2

xx means thoroughbred. ox adds Arab

[tuckawayfarm]

XX denotes TB

[rodawn]

First, let’s clarify the Hanoverian terminology:

Register = certificate of pedigree.

Approval = means they’ve been inspected, approved and entered into the studbook and thus they’re allowed to be bred and produce foals who can be registered as Hanoverian.

So, in Hanover, any non-hanoverian registered horse that has an xx beside their name is Thoroughbred.

If a Thoroughbred is listed in a Hanoverian pedigree who has produced a “Hanoverian registered foal”, it means that Thoroughbred horse was inspected by the judging committee, approved, and entered into the studbook. No horse (TB or otherwise) is allowed to produce a registerable foal, except that the mare/stallion has been inspected, approved, and entered, no matter how nice the foal might be.

Most Hanoverians have some TB blood in their lineage.

FWIW - Your horse is probably named a W name after his sire in deference to his particular family tree. Weltmeyer is a rather good family to belong in.

Ansturm sired by Adlerfarn II was a fully licensed Hanoverian stallion who was sired by the Hanoverian-approved Thoroughbred Stallion, Adlerschild xx. Adlerschild was sired by the racing stallion, Ferro xx.

Ansturm’s Hanoverian dam, Paulette, was sired by the approved Thoroughbred stallion Poet xx. Her damline is very good - Stamm 191 - this stamm line produced the likes of Bolero and Hitchcock. Bolero basically turned the world upside down in his day and age and some of the very, very best dressage horses have Bolero within the 3rd-4th-5th generation of their pedigrees.

The “A” line and the “W” line tend to nick very well together.

Therefore, your horse does have a fair bit of thoroughbred blood in him, a good mix of blood and his pedigree top and bottom is rather nice. You have yourself a very good sporthorse pedigree.

Congratulations on your new horse.

[JFS]

Thank you all very much especially rodawn. I suspected the XX was TB although the Hot Chocolate in the pedigree query is not the one in his pedigree. His previous owner bought him to be a dressage horse, but he really prefers the rough and tumble outdoors so I bought him as an event horse. He has a wonderful disposition with a very brave and willing attitude. At my age I’m not looking to do any high levels but a safe and capable horse should be fun

Jackie

[ahf]

@rodawn;5918591

First, let’s clarify the Hanoverian terminology:

Register = certificate of pedigree.

In the US, (American Hanoverian Society) Certificate of Pedigree (COP) does not equal registered. Just the opposite.

It means that ONE of the parents was approved for breeding, but the other parent was NOT approved for breeding. In this case, we know that Weltbekannt is a fully approved stallion. So was Anstrum, way back when. So I would suspect that Hot Chocolate xx was never presented to the Society for approval for breeding stock, or her daughter by Anstrum was never presented.

Doesn’t change the horse JFS now has one bit. As a matter of fact, COP horses are eligible for year end awards. NIIIIICE awards too. So if he shapes up to be a good eventer, the OP may want to join the AHS as an associate member. :winkgrin:

[JFS]

Thanks ahf. I have another question. On the COP there is an ES before Weltbekannt’s and Ansturm’s names and American Chocolate who is listed as a Hanoverian has a R before her name and Hot Chocolate XX has a PS before her name. What do those initials mean?

[not_again]

The “A-W nick” mentioned is Absatz-Weltmeyer. Weltmeyer’s dam was by Absatz. Ansturm is no relation.

[railmom]

[QUOTE=JFS;5918762]
Thanks ahf. I have another question. On the COP there is an ES before Weltbekannt’s and Ansturm’s names and American Chocolate who is listed as a Hanoverian has a R before her name and Hot Chocolate XX has a PS before her name. What do those initials mean?[/QUOTE]

ES is Elite Stallion. PS is Pre-Studbook. Not sure about the R?? Maybe Recorded?

[Tasker]

Mom (not again) will be able to confirm this but we have some papers of AHS horses born in the 70’s & 80’s who had R, B and White papers. They ID #'s had a corresponding initial and then a unique #. The 2 mares born in 79 were R’s as far as I recall. The '78 stallions were B’s. FWIW.

[not_again]

R was for Registry.

[Elkie]

My mare has Paulette in her pedigree…and Dark Ronald an Irish TH. was the “cornerstone” of German breeding.

[rodawn]

[QUOTE=not again;5918766]
The “A-W nick” mentioned is Absatz-Weltmeyer. Weltmeyer’s dam was by Absatz. Ansturm is no relation.[/QUOTE]

I didn’t say Anstrum is a relation to Absatz or Weltmeyer.

Her horse is the result of A and W lineages. The A and W successful combination is not just found in the case of Weltmeyer. There are several current, very successful stallions who very specifically cross an A line with a W line. Absatz doesn’t own the A line and Weltmeyer doesn’t own the W line. A very successful family line descending from Ferdinand through Wendekreis owns a very successful W branch.

Alabaster is a Akzente x Waleska (she descends from Allerbeste, not related to Absatz). Argentinus has a W damline. Woronow is both A and W. One of my own mares is A and W - White Star on top and Allround on bottom.

But to the OP, as I am gathering you are American, you will want more specific info re: hanoverian via the American Hanoverian Association and information from them, so go with what AHF states.

Canada stayed with the Hanoverian Verband from Germany and the red registration passports/pink papers come directly from them. .

[Porphgoddess]

I personally bred Ansturm to hot chocolate. I can tell you that hot chocolate was approved by the AHS and that in my opinion she was Ansturms favorite mare. She was large and dark brown and very sweet. She was bred to Ansturm many times, so I can’t attest to her foals registry. We bred all the Ansturm mares to Nebelwerfer, which was a good mix. In my opinion Ansturm was the kindest horse that I have ever known. My 3 year old granddaughter rode him in his later years. He never hurt a woman. I still miss him.

[vineyridge]

The only Hot Chocolate in the APR who had a TB foal is the 1968 model. She’s not on Pedigree Query at all. That Hot Chocolate is US Bred and is by Precious Trust out of Dorney. The one on AllBreed that Not Again pulled up is not currently in the JC Online database. According to Pedigree Query, that Hot Chocolate was Barbados bred. She’s a 1983 model. The Horse Telex Ansturm was born in 1971, so either mare is possible by age.

Porphgoddess or AHS can tell you which Hot Chocolate is the right one.

[Porphgoddess]

The 68 hot chocolate was a thoroughbred mare who was approved for breeding by the AHS. She was bed to Ansturm for many years. Her last foal by him was in the 90’s.

My quess is that American Chocolate may not have been presented for approval. I don’t know. I didn’t own Hot Chocolate and didn’t keep track of the foals.