Harness Question - no shafts

[Janet]

We are in the Isle of Man (IoM) an island between England and Ireland, in the Irish Sea. We took a ride in the horse drawn tram along the Promenade, and I have some questions. The horse (a Clydesdale, well looked after) had a horse-collar and traces, attached to a singletree. But NO shafts, and NO harness (I think it is called breeching) to keep the traces up when the tram is stationary, and the horse isn’t pulling. When the tram is stopped, the traces droop to near fetlock level.
I understand the “no shafts” becuase the Promenade is effectively flat, and shafts are primarily to prevent the cart from running into the horse going downhill. But I was surprised to see nothing keeping the traces “up”. The groom/assistant said that, once, the driver dropped the singletree, and a horse stepped over her traces, but really didn’t seem to care.

Is this something that is normal when driving on only flat terrain? or is this unique to the IoM?

[2DogsFarm]

I’m no Pro, & hope @goodhors weighs in, because she & DH are!

Draft harness differs from Fine/Pleasure Harness.
From your description, some harness parts & their use are reversed.
Shafts don’t prevent a vehicle from running into the horse, that’s what breeching does
Traces aren’t held up by shafts, but some run them through tugs/shaft holders.
Holdback straps are what holds shafts in place.

Pairs are sometimes driven w/o breeching.
Why was explained to me, but the reason escapes me now

My guess is the style of vehicle - the tram shown in your photo (aka a Peoplemover) - determines the mode of hitching.

I’ll edit this to add a pic of harness to carriage after I Google one

Here ya go
#13-breeching strap is what I call Holdback
This gets run through a Footman’s Loop (metal bracket attached to the shaft) then wrapped 2 or 3 times around the shaft & run back through itself to hold the shaft steady.

[Janet]

@2DogsFarm

Shafts don’t prevent a vehicle from running into the horse, that’s what breeching does

Yes, but, as I understand it, the breeching doesn’t DO anything unless it is ATTACHED to a shaft.
But I thought there was usually SOMETHING to prevent the traces from getting tangled up with the horse’s feet when there is slack in the traces.

Since my post yesterday, I have seen pictured (in the Manx museum) of earlier versions of the Douglas Promenade Horse Drawn Tram, going back to the late 1800s. In ALL of them, there is just a horse collar and traces. No breeching, no shafts, nothing to keep the traces off the ground.

[MunchingonHay]

You have all of the right words, just in the wrong places

Ok, I am going to do my best without getting too wordy. (using the above pic as your refernce)

The collar has rings on the hames that are hard connected to the trances (they are sewn on, no buckle). Which is connected to the singletree to the people mover and is adjustable via the chain links. Horses PUSH into the collar which engages the traces, which then pulls the people mover or carriage, etc.

Continuing with the collar, there is no false martingale (a strap of leather that runs between the front legs to the collar, because it is not needed, the horse is not pushing the people mover backwards, the false martingale stops the collar from going over the horses head). This leads us to no breeching.

Think of breeching like brakes. The horse/pony wears breeching to control the speed down hill and it holdsback the carriage/cart/people mover from running up the horse (see 2Dogs remark about the holdback strap).

Also absent is the saddle or backpad, back strap, and crupper and sometimes trace carriers.

These are not needed in this set up. Shafts are not needed either. (shafts are connected to the axel of the carriage)

The shafts turn the carriage. Notice that this people mover is on tracks so no need to turn or steer the people mover, it does it on the rail. All the horse has to do is walk forward and be directed, the mover follows. (and given its location, its most likely straight with turns at the end to go the other direction)

There is no breeching because the people mover has a break and a parking break on board which is controlled by the driver. Since there is no saddle or backpad, (which in traditional single driving would have the tugs which carries the shafts; with a pair or fours, the traces are connected to the collar and buckled to the saddle/backpad to keep things organized and not tangled up) along with a false girth.

@Janet

Yes, but, as I understand it, the breeching doesn’t DO anything unless it is ATTACHED to a shaft.

The breeching is breaks. Yes they attached to the shafts so it holds the carriage back and not runs over the horse. Breeching like 2Dogs stated is connected to the shafts via the hold back strap, (looped loosely) around a shaft or sometimes there is a quick release snap.

There are no trace carriers because there is no back strap. The trace carrier is a strap of leather that runs from the trace over the hip and to the other side, and it carries the trace. In this situation its not needed. Think about the terrian, the gait the horse uses, and the speed, and that there is a break on the people mover.

Horses used in this type of work know their job. They know standing still means rest, and to get out of the collar, (which deactivates the traces) and not work. When they walk off the traces are engaged and are out of the way of getting stepped on.

In some harnesses there is breeching that connects up to the collar via the saddle/backstrap.

Also something to consider, they are using horses with good level brains. They know their job. Walk and then stop.

[2DogsFarm]

🤷
Hoping the longtime & more experienced Drivers here will chime in.
@cayuse ?
@red_mares ?
@DiamondJubilee ?

ETA:
Thanks @MunchingonHay !
I posted my 2nd reply before seeing yours
Moocho Grassyass

[MunchingonHay]

@Janet

In ALL of them, there is just a horse collar and traces. No breeching, no shafts, nothing to keep the traces off the ground.

Where is the horse going to go? Its connected to the people mover via a thick strap of leather and chain.

The driver above is simplifing his end of day jobs. Its easier and quicker to disconnect the traces, remove the reins, swap halter for the bridle, and lift the collar and traces over head. No exta parts to clean.

Also, using the picture above, it looks like the traces are still a good, 8 inches off the ground. The horse would have to be sitting against the people mover to have enough slack to have those traces hit the ground.

I actually think his set up is lovely, you can see the horse and not get distracted by harness.

[MunchingonHay]

@2DogsFarm

ETA:
Thanks @MunchingonHay !
I posted my 2nd reply before seeing yours
Moocho Grassyass

LOL You are very welcome … I have no clue how to reply to grassyass

[2DogsFarm]

I like the distraction of a patent Show Harness with the housing & the little whirligig at the top
I’d LOVE to outfit my mini in collar & hames.
& Show him as Honey, I Shrunk the Percheron
(he’s dark bay… all 34")

[cayuse]

If he steps over the traces he’ll be unfazed, probably (hopefully). I saw a video years ago of a 40 horse hitch and when those boys slowed down and turned a sharp corner the all were stepping over the traces or chains or whatever it was (sorry I can’t remember, I do remember being amazed that they just knew where to put their feet) I wish I could find the video. I bet that vehicle has some pretty good brakes on it and if he got fussy that would slow him down.
That’s all I got , nothing but speculation!

[goodhors]

The picture shows a common setup for the old Tram, trolley, people movers, before electricity was used. I have seen a number of photos with horse just wearing the collar and bridle with reins, with them being marked as Chicago, New York locations. So a fairly widespread method. It seems to have been an effective harness method for all the reasons MunchingonHay gives. A tired horse or one with a strong routine, is unlikely to be jigging when halted. Daily work seems to make a lot of horses “more sensible,” like the wet saddle blankets adage for young riding horses. Waste of energy fussing. Horse is not going to work harder than needed! Horse knows his stops, the turn-around routine at the end of his route, wIl help drIver by standing well. Having so much less leather to buy and maintain is very economical in money and time. I would expect each horse has his personal collar and hames with traces, bridle. Less leather means less places to sore a horse too.

I also believe the Trams have a foot brake and a parking brake that the driver controls. He prevents tram hitting the horse in the rump, can stop in place exactly, for passengers to enter or depart without tram moving at all.

And horse was probably taught during training, that a leg over a trace is NOT “the end of the world!” Horse would halt, allow trace to be unhooked, pulled back outside his leg, hooked back up to continue the route.

Modern horses are trained not to react badly when a trace gets between legs on either side, usually during their long-lining lessons. Leaders in a Four or Tandem can have traces get up between hind legs because they are out of daught (pronounced draft) and not pulling traces tight on turns. Even trace carriers won’t prevent a leg over at times. Driver stops, puts groom down to fix it. Leaders are NOT PULLING most of the time, only on straight-away roads ahead. Tight Leader traces on turns will pull the Wheeler/s sideways, knock them down with the pole or shafts!

We managed to get traces between Tandem Leader’s legs a dozen times or more when traces slackened, dragged the ground, doing turns without her in draught. She WAS wearing trace carriers. She was not happy with us! And being “special,” we managed to get the Tandem Wheeler’s FRONT leg over the Leader trace during a turn!! He was not happy hopping on 3 legs as the Leader straightened out again!! We went back to the drawing board and changed most of the Tandem setup to prevent that happening any more. Read a couple books. The changes did what we needed done. No more chance of a leg over a trace or pulling the Wheeler over sideways! Have to say Husband loved driving that Tandem!! Once the Leader “got it” she was like sitting behind a heat seeking missile! He said it was mostly just THINKING about turns and she was turning. They flew thru the hazards and trails on marathon. A bystander told us they were doing FEI time, though it only felt and looked like a nice canter between hazards!

[Janet]

(and given its location, its most likely straight with turns at the end to go the other direction)

@goodhors

Horse knows his stops, the turn-around routine at the end of his route, wIl help drIver by standing well.

In this case, at the end of the Prom, they unhitch the horse from one end of the tram, then lead her to the other end, and rehitch her at that end (then flip all the seats in the tram).

[Janet]

@MunchingonHay

These are not needed in this set up. Shafts are not needed either. (shafts are connected to the axel of the carriage)

The shafts turn the carriage.

OK, this is an aside and not related to the Horse Tram question. Standardbred racing sulkies have shafts, but not attached to the axle. And they do not do a lot of turning. But they do not seem to have any breeching. The shafts seem to be attached directly to the “saddle”. Does the “saddle” form the fixed point for both pulling and braking?

[Janet]

Thanks for all the replies. I was not criticizing this set up. I just couldn’t remember seeing anything like this before.

[goodhors]

Janet That is an interesting method to reverse direction! Back to economical, saves on track or a turntable. I do not recall anyone ever mentioning flipping the seats over!

We have found that not using breeching with the Multiples seems to let them move bigger, better, and the carriages have foot brake pedals. In CDE there is a newer rule that requires Singles to have breeching, even if you have brakes on your carriage.

The Standardbred folks don’t use breeching that I have seen. They also want the BIG movement for speed. They keep coming up with new harness and race bike design that attach to each other in unique ways! Some designs get ruled out over time for various reasons. Some don’t prove to aid speed and get discarded. The bikes are extremely light, with built in stopping methods that don’t include breeching. Thimbles used to go on shafts tips but I am not sure if anyone still uses them for stopping race bikes.

The fine harness folks have used thimbles and traces wrapped around the shafts for a lot of years as a stopping method. No breeching. They show in flat, groomed arenas, not usually driving on roads or trails. They use very lightweight vehicles too. Thin strap harness, no visible traces, no breeching, allows you to see the beauty of the elegant moving equine without visible distractions. No breeching to get in the way of big movement.

[RMJacobs]

That’s very interesting! My ponies would have quit without breeching. I was only driving them single with a cart, and everything around us was huge, steep hills. They really had to brace their butts on the breeching on those downhills. Even Crackers, who was only 12.2 and very delicate build, could hold my weight on the downhills until he got too wobbly. He begged to go out, so I was driving him very slowly on the flat and ground driving him up and down the hills. It was very hard on me due to my degree of disability, but in his late 20s he deserved whatever I could do to make him comfortable and happy.

Rebecca

[2DogsFarm]

Thanks for your Always Useful & Educational.input

Your description of Tandem reminded me of one of my favorite Villa Louis memories.
A Tandem on Marathon came to the narrow bridge, where the center is under shallow water.
Leader looked like he thought about not crossing… Wheeler hesitated a mere nanosecond, looked like he was thinking “Oh, no you don’t!” then chest-bumped him & over they went

[poltroon]

In addition to the many excellent comments, for a vehicle like this, it is very heavy. If it were to propel forward into the horse with any velocity, no breeching is going to stop it from hitting the horse or pushing the horse forward. Since it is flat and on rails, it’s not likely to get to much momentum before the operator uses the brakes, and this works.

[MunchingonHay]

These are all great questions @Janet !! I welcome them

To answer your question about Standardbred bikes not having an axel, they do, the driver sits on it.

Two Wheeled carts the shafts can direct connect to the axel thus, controlling the steering.

See where the shaft goes from the saddle/backpad, (they are calling it harness in general in this photo) and it runs to the jock to the wheel.

its hard to see in this meadowbrook cart, but you can see the shaft go to the wheel (it actually goes to the “body of the cart” which is bolted to the axel via the springs.

I also want to point out, that if driven in a modern carriage; pairs, fours, and even some singles have disk brakes controlled by a foot petal by the driver so there is no need for breeching.

Breeching = Brakes
Shafts = Steering

a little off topic.
watch these guys jump the “pole” chain to make a turn (the chain is what is pulling the wagons)
20 mule hitch driver view: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRGmkYxQXDc
ground view: note the driver with his hand on the brake: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_Thvbp0rPo

[DMK]

@MunchingonHay

and even some singles have disk brakes controlled by a foot petal by the driver so there is no need for breeching.

At the competition level the vast majority of singles have at least 2 brakes (rear and 5th wheel/turntable), and quite a few have front wheel brakes as well. Front wheel brakes are a great way to get yourself in trouble if you do not understand EXACTLY when and where to use them though, so definitely not a good idea for less experienced drivers. But as a single driver who does not live in the flat lands, breeching is still critical, because those brakes aren’t all that wonderful for going down long stretches of hills. They do help a lot, I find them useful for taking some of the weight off of the breeching while still allowing the carriage to roll freely and not be jerked back with over braking.

[red_mares]

@2DogsFarm

Pairs are sometimes driven w/o breeching.
Why was explained to me, but the reason escapes me now

Because the vehicle has brakes.

@goodhors - thimbles have been out of style in fine harness for decades. Now we just use shaft stops, tiny little shaft stops. They do work…unless you put them on the wrong side of the tug. Although if you have a wrap strap and not French tugs, behind will work if you do it right.