Is he a good clinician? Anyone recommend riding with him? Things to know?
I did a private lesson with him a few years back, he offered these after a week long clinic in our area. Super nice man but nothing special in his way of teaching and I wouldn’t do another lesson with him. I found a much better value price wise and instruction wise with someone else who uses the same philosophy.
I don’t ride “western”, but Harry’s school of teaching can be applied to any discipline, hence why I went out last year. I loved him, and found him extremely helpful and wonderful to work with.
He is a trainer out of the same realm as the Dorrance brothers were, as well as Ray Hunt and the style based on the Spanish High School and the Vaqueros. Extremely correct teaching in both how to school the horse’s body as well as the mind. I visited him as an auditor w/ a friend who brought her horse, but got to work with my friend’s horse a couple times for experience’s sake. I liked his style, but not everyone does or will.
This is not to say he is “bad” or anything close. He’s an excellent, excellent horseman with a lot to offer. But we all learn differently, so clearly SLW and I need/want different things from our clinicians/trainers.
Actually in my private lesson Harry left me wanting for more; I left with one exercise for schooling my keen horse at home. He also spent a lot time talking to the people seated around him during my lesson. At $130 for a private lesson I don’t see a value in a distracted instructor.
I agree, Harry is from the Dorrance school of training and in my area, that philosophy of horsemanship is nothing unusual. As mentioned, I found another gentleman who is also a Top Tier Dorrance/Brannaman philosophy trainer and I took a ton of homework and ideas away from that 3 day clinic last summer. His exercises have been incorporated into my riding and the improvement in my keen mare is measurable.
Absolutely, 100% LOVE LOVE LOVE him! I’m so lucky because my trainer has been with Harry Whitney since the late 80s probably? My first clinic with HW was in the mid 90’s.
I just did a clinic in October, and my friends are heading to his ranch in AZ soon. Harry Whitney is a TRUE horseman, and really orients everything around “from the horses’ point of view”
To get a feel for him, feel free to check out any of Tom Moates’s books. He chronicles his journey down the HW path.
I love his clinics. They are 1:1 sessions and then you audit the others. It is sooo much better than very large group clinics (I’ve ridden with Buck twice and his are 25 riders/horses in the ring…no individual attention at all)
Anyways - check out his website. Lots of good nuggets there. Highly recommend him.
I almost wonder if people get more out of clinics like this from auditing?
(I don’t know, have not had the opportunity to do anything like this, there never seems to be anything down this far south 
)
[QUOTE=froglander;7405116]
I almost wonder if people get more out of clinics like this from auditing?[/QUOTE]
In my experience I get a lot from auditing, but I’ve had more than one experience where I thought something made perfect sense until I went and tried to do it myself.
I love the 1 hr private format as a result, since you can watch all the other sessions and then see what you can actually accomplish during yours. I’ll often ride before the sessions, during mine, and in the evening.
The fellow I’ve ridden with for a half dozen years apprenticed with Harry Whitney, and has a similar approach to things. I’ve found it invaluable. Their approach is much slower than someone like Buck Brannaman, I’ve found. If I can give one example, where Buck will get a horse used to a saddle to a point then let them buck out any remaining problems (ie, get a horse started in a weekend), Josh (and likely Harry) will do so much to get a horse understanding pressure that they never need to buck at all.
One of their key concepts is light vs soft, which most other people use synonymously.
So it would almost be ideal to have the opportunity to audit a clinic from a clinician first, and then the next time they are around, participate? Hoping to move to a more “clinic friendly” area someday so I am just curious 
[QUOTE=froglander;7405240]
So it would almost be ideal to have the opportunity to audit a clinic from a clinician first, and then the next time they are around, participate? Hoping to move to a more “clinic friendly” area someday so I am just curious :)[/QUOTE]
That’s a good way to do it if you don’t know if you can trust the clinician with you and your horse. Otherwise, it might be better to do the reverse - auditing will make more sense once you’ve had the chance to do some doing…so to speak.
Different clinicians use the same terms to mean different things, which messes people up (myself included).
Come up to Alberta! We’ve had just about everyone up here. I’m riding with Josh Nichol, Martin Black, and Bruce Sandifer (in BC) this year. Feel pretty lucky.
Genius.
My mom has both audited and ridden with him. I’ve never seen him, but talking through things with my mom about what was going on in a clinic has given me some HUGE a-ha moments. Like, thinking about how a horse feels about being asked to go away from home, and figuring how to set it up so the horse can feel OK about leaving…that gave me the ability to ride a fresh ‘barn sour’ critter happily away from home to go check the cows.
I also have read (several times) the ‘Harry’ books that Tom Moates wrote, the Journey Into Honest Horsemanship series that starts with ‘Between The Reins’.
http://www.tommoates.com/books.php
I think these books should be a part of anyone’s library who is interested in ‘the real deal’, along with other Dorrance, Hunt, books and Buck’s 7 Clinics.
How Harry Whitney teaches, how he works with the horses, is not the same as Buck, or Ray Hunt…but he’s teaching the same thing. The ‘Heart of the Matter’ is the same. He’s getting through to the same place. He almost never ‘drives’ a horse with a flag. Buck does…on the way to being able to ‘send’ a horse with a flag. Lots of people never understand that they are essentially harassing a horse when they drive it somewhere with a flag. Driving can work out, if you know you’re looking for ‘send’. And especially, if you have a horse that you must make clear to, who moves whose feet. Otherwise, you get an annoyed horse.
As far as learning, I think a lot of people get truly handicapped by the idea that they are paying for their time, and so the clinician should have 100% (or whatever percent, based on hours of clinic and number of participants) of his/her attention on them, to Teach them Something New. They rely on the clinician setting up exercises perfectly suited to show them How to Do It.
It feels GREAT when someone puppets you through something new, so you and the horse are perfectly at the edge of your comfort/capability zone, not bored and not overfaced, and you feel exactly How to Do It.
And there is absolutely a place for someone to help set something up for you.
But always putting yourself in that position, takes SO much of the learning, the critical thinking ability, the problem solving ability away from you, and can make you dependent on having the Perfect Authority to set things up so you can ‘learn’ to do something.
What you can learn, when you can take a little sip of assistance when you get stuck…if you can think about how what Teacher is telling Johnny also applies to you…
I wanted to disappear in my first Buck clinic when the first thing Buck did was take my horse and teach him to lead. Not only was I embarrassed about not being ‘capable’ of handling him, but I felt like I was taking up everyone else’s time on something most of them ‘didn’t have a problem with’. But when I pulled my head out of the sand, it was the ‘most capable’ folks with their bridle horses, that were most fascinated and involved and asking good questions.
If you tune out because you think you don’t have the same issues with the rider who is currently being helped ‘hands on’…you are really missing out on what might be truly helpful to you. If you doubt it, try riding right up to Buck (or asking the question out loud in the Q&A time), and honestly asking what Johnny’s, and Johnny’s horse’s troubles that Buck spelled out for Johnny, have to do with your own particular issue. (Assuming you’re riding in the clinic and Buck can see for himself). You might get your eyes opened in a big way.
Tom Dorrance used to say, I can’t teach you anything in this weekend clinic. If it goes well, you might get to thinking and then you’ll go home and learn something.
There is also the possibility that Harry Whitney might not be traveling to give clinics much longer. So if you have the opportunity, I’d say take it!
[QUOTE=aktill;7405297]
That’s a good way to do it if you don’t know if you can trust the clinician with you and your horse. Otherwise, it might be better to do the reverse - auditing will make more sense once you’ve had the chance to do some doing…so to speak.
Different clinicians use the same terms to mean different things, which messes people up (myself included).
Come up to Alberta! We’ve had just about everyone up here. I’m riding with Josh Nichol, Martin Black, and Bruce Sandifer (in BC) this year. Feel pretty lucky.[/QUOTE]
Hadn’t thought of it that way, you have a good point!
I am way down in south Florida (outside of Ft Lauderdale) and while there are horsey pockets here and there, nothing that would bring a clinician down this far Nor the facility for it really I think.
Someday!!
Thanks for the info, everyone! I think I’ll have an opportunity to participate later this year - time to save up . . . or request it as a birthday present! :winkgrin:
Agree Aktill.
Are you working with Josh Nichol??? in Canada? He is AWESOME!!! I wish he’d clinic down here.
[QUOTE=aktill;7405185]
In my experience I get a lot from auditing, but I’ve had more than one experience where I thought something made perfect sense until I went and tried to do it myself.
I love the 1 hr private format as a result, since you can watch all the other sessions and then see what you can actually accomplish during yours. I’ll often ride before the sessions, during mine, and in the evening.
The fellow I’ve ridden with for a half dozen years apprenticed with Harry Whitney, and has a similar approach to things. I’ve found it invaluable. Their approach is much slower than someone like Buck Brannaman, I’ve found. If I can give one example, where Buck will get a horse used to a saddle to a point then let them buck out any remaining problems (ie, get a horse started in a weekend), Josh (and likely Harry) will do so much to get a horse understanding pressure that they never need to buck at all.
One of their key concepts is light vs soft, which most other people use synonymously.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;7405672]
Thanks for the info, everyone! I think I’ll have an opportunity to participate later this year - time to save up . . . or request it as a birthday present! :winkgrin:[/QUOTE]
Come down to the Fresno clinic first week of October with me 
I think you are just north of me, and I’m “on the way” - I’ll take us! And we can stay at my friends’ house there. I can get you “in” if you are interseted? PM me…it’s not listed yet publically (or maybe it is) I know the organizer and it’s small. Like 6 riders?? maybe 7?
Fillabeana - EVERY HORSE SHOULD HUG AND KISS YOU for the well-articulated post, above!!!
HW is about helping us humans GET a horses’ attention/thought/focus, KEEP IT (even moments at a time) and then most importantly DIRECT IT.
When you HAVE their thought/mind/focus/attention, you can then DIRECT IT.
Directing their thought, means you can direct their feet/body. Some of the other guys go from FEET to MIND. It’s all to the same end. The horse’s FEET AND BODY follows it’s MIND.
Sometimes we try and show the horse where the sweet spot and good deal is, by getting the feet to move, but I prefer HW’s way. The horse learns that being WITH YOU MENTALLY is the sweet spot, and “WITH-YOU-NESS” in mind and boy, becomes a way of being. Always. You get the mind - the horse feeling clear and confident - and the body comes “with it”. No brace, no rush, no resistance. Pure clarity and “comfort”
It’s the “WITH-YOU-NESS”, with a keen focus on the mind/thought/attention/feelings…that is what I love about HW approach.
Dr. Deb Bennett calls it the Birdie Theory. She explains the horses’ thought/mind/feelings/attention/focus as it’s “Birdie” …and the Birdie is connected the body/feet.
The LAW OF THE HORSE is: It’s body/feet will ALWAYS want to be with its BIRDIE.
Imagine a horse being asked to go away from the barn/buddies…imagine him heading out - or even being worked in an arena. Where is his Birdie? If it’s still at the barn, his BODY WILL SHOW THAT. He’ll bulge towards the gate/barn, he’ll drop his shoulder one way, bulge out the other, go faster towards, slower away, resist or brace in mouth/poll/neck/wherever in certain directions, depending on his Birdie. This is if his “birdie” is in the barn…and not WITH YOU.
Using Dr. Debs’ “Birdie” to describe the horses’ mind/feeling/though/attention/focus. Where does he WANT to be?
Fun stuff! I love this!
[QUOTE=Fancy That;7405691]
Come down to the Fresno clinic first week of October with me I think you are just north of me, and I’m “on the way” - I’ll take us! And we can stay at my friends’ house there. I can get you “in” if you are interseted? PM me…it’s not listed yet publically (or maybe it is) I know the organizer and it’s small. Like 6 riders?? maybe 7?[/QUOTE]
Yes, that’s the one - I’m emailing with the organizer about it! I had contacted her about last year’s clinic but I was too late so she kept me on the list. If you know her, tell her I want in - I’ll send you a PM!
[QUOTE=Fancy That;7405697]
Sometimes we try and show the horse where the sweet spot and good deal is, by getting the feet to move, but I prefer HW’s way. The horse learns that being WITH YOU MENTALLY is the sweet spot, and “WITH-YOU-NESS” in mind and boy, becomes a way of being. Always. You get the mind - the horse feeling clear and confident - and the body comes “with it”. No brace, no rush, no resistance. Pure clarity and “comfort”
It’s the “WITH-YOU-NESS”, with a keen focus on the mind/thought/attention/feelings…that is what I love about HW approach.
Fun stuff! I love this! :)[/QUOTE]
This is what I want most from my experience with Mac - that “with-me-ness” where we work together in harmony instead of with resistance or distraction or fear or whatever else might come in the way.
I love this stuff, too. Really, it has been a more fun and rewarding journey than anything I ever did when I was showing. But that’s just me. It is what keeps me seeking and studying and learning and trying and failing and trying again.
I am way down in south Florida (outside of Ft Lauderdale) and while there are horsey pockets here and there, nothing that would bring a clinician down this far Nor the facility for it really I think.
Frog, Tom Curtin is based in North Florida…I know it’s a drive, but better N. Fla than, say, western Montana! And he will be giving a clinicin Winter Haven, between Tampa and Orlando (midstate) in March.
Fillabeana - EVERY HORSE SHOULD HUG AND KISS YOU for the well-articulated post, above!!!
Aw, fancy, what a nice thing to say. (Blushing)
I’ll be sure to let my own five horses give me sloppy kisses on your behalf this afternoon
So many people never find the REAL meaning of Ray Hunt’s often quoted ‘make the right thing easy, and make the wrong thing difficult’.
Bill Dorrance said, ‘You don’t ever want any part of making things difficult for your horse.’ And yet he means exactly the same thing as Ray Hunt does.
You can set it up so the horse believes he has no other choices than the two you present him with, and he will indeed choose the ‘easier’ one. But if he isn’t ‘turned loose’ mentally (Ray Hunt), ‘with you’ (Harry Whitney), having ‘inner OK-ness’ (Dr. Deb)…he will still seek another option eventually. Because the ‘easier’ choice does not feel OK, good, right to him…it just sucks less than the difficult one.
But if you set it up so the horse, doing the ‘difficult’ thing, has just enough motivation to go search for the ‘easy’ thing…and he finds inner peace with the ‘easy’ thing…he won’t ‘come untrained’ or ‘all of a sudden for no reason out of the blue’ buck you off.
What most people don’t realize, is that most horses need pressure taken OFF them while they are doing the ‘wrong’ thing, so they can begin to check out other options.
Showing the horse how to release his physical braces, usually leads to release of mental braces.
But if you don’t know what muscle group you want the horse to release, and that you don’t stop working with that ‘exercise’ until the horse is releasing his mental brace as well…the horse is just complying and you won’t make any deep changes mentally. There are forty-twelve ways to have the horse ‘laterally flex’ his neck or ‘one-rein-stop’…where the horse learns to retain his physical brace in poll, loins and ribcage, and never gives over mentally. I can promise that an athletic, motivated-enough horse can go directly from the middle of a one-rein-stop, where his hind leg is stepping across ‘properly’ but he isn’t releasing a brace…right to a rearing, bucking bronc ride.
Martin Black talks about ‘pressure and relief’, rather than ‘pressure and release’. Same thing, meaning that simply taking physical pressure away does not automatically mean that the horse is no longer mentally pressured. You have to find out how to get that horse in a state of mental relief when he does as you ask. You get that horse where he is OK, with-you, and you hardly need pressure at all…that is where lightness comes from.
[QUOTE=Fillabeana;7405791]
Frog, Tom Curtin is based in North Florida…I know it’s a drive, but better N. Fla than, say, western Montana! And he will be giving a clinicin Winter Haven, between Tampa and Orlando (midstate) in March.[/QUOTE]
Thanks, I’ll have to check that out!
I love these threads, there have been a few like this, but you and Fancy That have really put into words what I am searching for with my horse
