Sounds like he is really coming along.
Do you longline? I did that backing my young horse. Took him along trails up and down driveway, in and around and back out of arena. This was when he was too young to ride. We saw all kinds of stuff that he got used to : deer, squirrels jumping from tree to tree, birds flying up. Dogs following us around. Noise of farm equipment, gun shots, sirens. Train whistles, motor cycles. He’s very good about that now.
Best wishes for you.
Tks for the update.
Yes, so far, so good. But haven’t ridden yet, or taken him out away from the barn. I’m trying not to overface him and put him in a situation where he has to bolt. I do know how to longline, don’t know if he’s ever been, but will see if I can get a head horse to start, so he doesn’t turn around, and if all goes well, we may try that out around the farm!
Thanks for the update. It sounds like this is going to be a fun project for you.
So far he has been a blast to work with, really enjoy his mind and the way he learns!
I own a super reactive horse who was bred by a large warmblood breeding facility, raised by a person who (supposedly) did Clinton Anderson stuff, and started by a professional dressage rider who breeds, starts her own horses and has trained some to GP. He was an outlier that everyone had difficulty with and gained the reputation of “a dangerous horse” by qualified trainers in my area.
I now know that his spooks don’t come out of “nowhere”, he notices shadows and contrast that the average person doesn’t, especially if the sun becomes bright or is setting over the course of our ride. I know how to spot these now and put him into shoulder-in or whatever before the episodes escalate. He used to be hypervigilant to the point that if he saw an horse and rider in the distance, or a round bale, or a deer (he lived in a pasture with deer), etc. he would go into giraffe mode, and you could feel his heart beat. Obviously, this is an adrenaline dump, completely not controllable by the rider and very dangerous for the rider/handler. If he felt the “chips were down”, he bolted and bucked strenuously. It took a good year of reshaping his reactions to newly-encountered things for him to be able to largely keep his reactions in check. He still spooks, but they are milder reactions, and when he’s genuinely scared, I know how to mute his reactions and he’s much more aware that I’m on him and what the rules of being ridden are. One rein stop has been my friend. he still has his days that he is just very distracted. About a month ago, someone parked near the arena in a white car (fine) and then popped their trunk (not fine), he wouldn’t go anywhere near that half of the arena and bolted three times). OK, I’m going to pick my fights very carefully because he was genuinely afraid. Luckily, the next day, my good friend drove up to his pasture, popped the trunk of her white car, and fed him carrots. No problem at all.
i also notice that he reacts quite differently to a given stimulus if I am on the ground and in front of him/between him and the scary thing, and when I make him go between me and the scary thing, and when I’m on his back (he think’s he’s always going first). Thus, there are many situations where he’s OK with something when hand led but he’s not OK when ridden. I’m certain it’s a fear reaction and not him being naughty. That said, the ground work has really helped him pick his way through what he considers to be a scary situation…he knows I present him to puzzles he can solve and he now looks for the way to solve the puzzle rather than reacting.
Just a few things to contemplate from my experience. Good luck with this guy!!
OP - your description of this horse is SO much like my guy. I really think the feral upbringing may be the common denominator. My guy was actually broken at Monty Roberts’ in CA (where lady who had him before me took him). He is a pro at some of the NH stuff. But walking on tarps, blanketing in tarps, etc. - none of that matters when he thinks a LION is about to get him. And it is in open spaces when he feels isolated from the herd, or me. He bolted at a show once - he’d been pretty darn great and I was letting him graze on the lunge line as I started putting stuff in the dressing room. He lost sight of me briefly and ripped the lunge from my hands and ran straight back to the show barn. I’d also tried lunging him in the pasture - the very pasture he was turned out in - and used a leather halter in case he ran, and he did. I am pretty strong, but there was no holding him when he took off. So, the hypervigilant, wild horse thing is the root. I have zero experience with mustangs, but wonder if there may be some info/ideas from people who have experience with them - is our theory correct on the feral thing, or I wonder if it’s the unhandled and isolated thing? If mustangs don’t have these issues, maybe horses that are left out in a field without a good herd environment are the real problem? I love my guy, no regrets with him, but I accept limits - I would seek more help if the limits affected his utility or happiness, but again, I’m not a professional trail rider/endurance rider, so no big deal. So glad your boy is in good hands!
[QUOTE=LilyandBaron;8576335]
OP - your description of this horse is SO much like my guy. I really think the feral upbringing may be the common denominator. My guy was actually broken at Monty Roberts’ in CA (where lady who had him before me took him). He is a pro at some of the NH stuff. But walking on tarps, blanketing in tarps, etc. - none of that matters when he thinks a LION is about to get him. And it is in open spaces when he feels isolated from the herd, or me. He bolted at a show once - he’d been pretty darn great and I was letting him graze on the lunge line as I started putting stuff in the dressing room. He lost sight of me briefly and ripped the lunge from my hands and ran straight back to the show barn. I’d also tried lunging him in the pasture - the very pasture he was turned out in - and used a leather halter in case he ran, and he did. I am pretty strong, but there was no holding him when he took off. So, the hypervigilant, wild horse thing is the root. I have zero experience with mustangs, but wonder if there may be some info/ideas from people who have experience with them - is our theory correct on the feral thing, or I wonder if it’s the unhandled and isolated thing? If mustangs don’t have these issues, maybe horses that are left out in a field without a good herd environment are the real problem? I love my guy, no regrets with him, but I accept limits - I would seek more help if the limits affected his utility or happiness, but again, I’m not a professional trail rider/endurance rider, so no big deal. So glad your boy is in good hands![/QUOTE]
No, actually some horses are just hyper-alert even when they are NOT raised in a feral herd. My Canadian was raised in a back-yard setting with lots of attention and handling, but very little discipline. He’s similar to J-lu’s horse in that he notices everything (e.g. the guy walking his dog down the road over a mile away) and gets distracted and agitated. You need to slowly develop trust, so the horse will look to you instead of reacting immediately. Ground work is good for this. The horse also needs to learn that running/bolting doesn’t work, and isn’t an option - being able to stop them immediately when they try this is an important aspect of the learning process.
J-Lu and LillyandBaron, I agree that no matter how much you do on the ground, they sometimes feel all alone when you are up in the saddle and out of sight. I’m hoping that’s not the case eventually. On a good note, he seems very comfortable and relaxed in the arena, it’s when we go out in the wide open that he gets nervous. I don’t need another trail horse, mostly ride in the ring, so if he can be safe there, and eventually just cool out walking around the farm, that would be amazing.
Hobbs, I think you are absolutely right. I have this theory, and there are always exceptions to the rule, but I have found that horses that are great in the dressage arena, are not always the horses that you want to ride on trail, and horses that are great on trail, are not always the horses you want to do dressage with. I’m sure everyone will chime in with their horses that do both brilliantly, but in my 25 years of horses, this has been my experience for the most part.
My guy still has the reaction, undersaddle or on the ground, in very rare instances. I think horses will always have a fight/flight response to certain stimuli, no matter what. My guy does great most of the time, and even when he freaks, it’s not very long and then he comes back to me, “Wait, mom, did the lion get you?” I hate the idea that enough groundwork or trust or any amount of undersaddle training will 100% remove their instincts - it won’t. It will improve them, but there is no such thing as 100% bombproof - 99% bomb resistant, yes:) Just my opinion. OP - I think you have a great approach with your boy! Improve as much as possible, and accept that he’s possibly not your trail horse deluxe even if you can walk over tarps or deal with soda cans in bags, etc (like my boy - he can do all that, but he still can bolt at times -rarely, but it’s possible). And I’m like you - I trail ride for fun, care far more about dressage, so my boy is totally fine for me.
As my much esteemed cowboy friend says … “You can’t teach them NOT to be afraid. You CAN teach what to DO when they’re afraid.” 
J-Lu – interesting that you horse reacts differently with you in the saddle vs. on the ground, etc. My horse is no bolter, but he can be pretty reactive. When he really starts to flip his lid, I’ve found that it’s better if I stay on him rather than try to lead him past the scary object (which can be a water tank IN THE WRONG PLACE or the Ford Tractor PARKED WHERE THE JOHN DEERE SHOULD BE.) :lol:
If I get off, it’s like he thinks “Oh, crap. I’m on my own now.”
I’ve learned to breathe deep and drape my cheeks like two 20# bags of rice on either side of his back. He apparently thinks my butt is his security blanket and then we can deal with the O.M.G. What is THAT? reaction.
OP, it sounds like you have the tools to do right by this horse and you’re off to a great start. Good luck with him!
Any updates?
Yes, unfortunately it’s not the update I wanted to post. I did a ton of work with him on the ground, lots of respect groundwork, desensitizing, despooking, etc. He is a very bright, enjoyable, sweet horse that loves people. Finally I rode him in a pelham as the first owner/trainer suggested. I felt like he was too heavy in my hands and I couldn’t get him to soften, and carry himself as well as I know he can. The third ride in, after I had lunged and ridden about 15-20 minutes, he got strong and ramped up at the trot, and I couldn’t get him to come back to me. I turned him in a tight circle, and instead of slowing or stopping, he picked up a canter, and then we slingshotted out of it across the arena, and he galloped around several times before coming to a stop. My biggest worry is he would fall with me. My husband had been watching and was terrified, and told me to get off! As much as I wanted to, I said “No, I can’t”. So, I gathered him back up and proceeded to work him harder, doing a lot of suppling and lateral work, haunches in, shoulder in, renvers, bending, giving, unlocking. I walked and trotted, I have to admit I was a bit scared to canter again. At one point he started to feel strong again, so I ran him into the shavings pile corner, and made him keep his head in the corner, and did some giving to the bit again. Continued to work him for about a half hour until he got soft, light, responsive. When I was happy with the work, I finally got off, lunged him some more. After that I did more ground work, making him move his feet and stay out of my space, and stay with me. THEN I did some clicker/trick training. As much as I wished it hadn’t happened, at least I stayed on, and then made him work longer, harder, so he didn’t get out of work, which I think was a bit of a success.
I don’t want to ever come off of him, for my sake, but also because I don’t want him to win. Fortunately, I am friends with a girl who is engaged to John Lyons youngest son, Michael, who is a horse trainer in Asheboro, NC. John started a young silly, hot horse for me 20 some years ago, and I was in absolute awe, he is a genius with horses. Michael is young, tall, absolute picture of a good cowboy, and I know he will do a fantastic job with him. I am sending him down in a few days, and leaving him at least 2 months. Michael will actually set him up to bolt and then shut him down by disengaging the hind quarters, and teaching him to move his feet. I told him I want the bolt gone, I want him lighter and more responsive in the mouth, and if he’d like to work on his flying changes, feel free. Their farm has a 5000 acre forest right behind it, so after he gets good in the round pen, ring, he will take him out alone in the woods and expose him to every scary new thing out there, and really test his skills. I am going to go down about a month in and assess him, and learn how to do what he does. Then they are coming up to NY for a clinic in July and will bring him back and I will ride him in the clinic. If after all this work, we decide I am not the right rider for him, I will try to find him the perfect person. Somehow I have the feeling he may be a man’s horse, he is big, strong, smart and may need someone other than a tiny woman, but if Michael’s training is instilled, he should be able to be ridden by anyone. I know of course that this problem could resurface if the next rider isn’t aware or capable of shutting it down. I guess I will wait and see and get a sense for where we are at. He’s a wonderful horse that unfortunately was taught a bad behavior, I just couldn’t do nothing because I was scared of where he would end up. At least we are attempting to change the behavior so he can be successful for someone!
I think it is a good updaTE. You have a plan.
good for you
Unclear??
So, he bolted on you with a Pelham and you couldn’t stop him?
[QUOTE=artisticgold;8646613]
I am sending him down in a few days, and leaving him at least 2 months. Michael will actually set him up to bolt and then shut him down by disengaging the hind quarters, and teaching him to move his feet. I told him I want the bolt gone, I want him lighter and more responsive in the mouth, and if he’d like to work on his flying changes, feel free. Their farm has a 5000 acre forest right behind it, so after he gets good in the round pen, ring, he will take him out alone in the woods and expose him to every scary new thing out there, and really test his skills. I am going to go down about a month in and assess him, and learn how to do what he does. [/QUOTE]
I think this is a very good move for this horse. Get him out of the arena and get some serious wet saddle blankets on him with some miles.
When I bought my horse Red, he was essentially a green 6-year-old horse. Also fat as fat can be! Owners I bought him from told me he never bucked and was a total gem. Well, for the most part that is correct (he is very pleasant personality-wise) but they also never made him do any REAL work in his life. He bucked numerous times with me, until he realized that wasn’t going to fly. But that was easier to fix than discovering that he BOLTED. Pretty bad.
I’d actually never had a horse that bolted before, like he did. He’d freeze up, and nothing I would do could get him to “snap out of it” before he just BOLTED. Several times, he bolted up onto the road. I thank God there was never a car coming. He didn’t do it every ride, but he did it a couple times a week. Always scared me to death when he did it, because I didn’t know when he was going to do it or how far he’d run before I could regain control. Thankfully, I never fell off.
I’d say it took him an entire YEAR of solid everyday riding out on the trails (4+ miles each time), for me to get a good handle on his bolting. Then the problem literally kind of disappeared. At this point, I can’t even remember the last time he bolted. He’s calmed down a lot and probably realized most of what he was insecure about is no big deal and nothing to get downright terrified about to bolt.
I hauled him a lot all over the place too, and I also think that helped to purposefully put him in new situations.
Pretty much I am the only one who rides him, although my mother has ridden him from time to time. She currently keeping him for me as I am 35 weeks pregnant. And to be honest, he may just be suitable for my child in a couple years. He is certainly a much different horse than when I bought him. He is 10 years old this year. I credit most of it to all the miles I put on him, and all the places I hauled him.
So I do think your game plan with him is a good one. Get him to someone who is going to purposefully put him in those bolting situations and get some miles on him. Two months may not be enough (wouldn’t have been in my Red’s case) but I think it is a good place to start.
It sounds like you have a great plan for him. I really, really hope it works and am relieved, I guess, to know that you could tell when you were in over your head.
Yes, he bolted in a pelham, at that point I didn’t know which reins I was pulling on, I think I would’ve been better in a regular snaffle as I could’ve jerked his head up. I am not real familiar with riding with two reins. Luckily it ended ok, and he didn’t get me off and get out of any work. Now he will be with a kind, skilled cowboy who can retrain him and hopefully then myself or someone else can keep him in check with his new skill set.
Gosh that poor horse is on another long road trip again. Gosh won’t shipping and training cost a small fortune? No one local to help you out?
I know it is nice to help out this person/and horse but gosh that is a lot of time and $$$ to invest in if you don’t intend to keep him. I know it will make him marketable but the prices in horses these day you won’t recover anything from this venture.
As others tell me you can only ride one horse. They say that to me who has taken in a few unfortunates and currently have 4 retirees. I have been told by hubby I have to learn to say NO.
Wow.
Hard to believe for some I know -
but not always just about money for everyone.
Maybe she wants a good outcome for the horse
2 Likes
[QUOTE=Crockpot;8647685]
Wow.
Hard to believe for some I know -
but not always just about money for everyone.
Maybe she wants a good outcome for the horse[/QUOTE]
The horse was just shipped across the country. Isn’t that costly? Now he is going south from WNY?
I read the first post again and you state you have medical conditions. How did you expect this horse to work out for you? Some of these Canadians can be hot and strong.
I guess you don’t ride in a double bridle. When I first started with a Pelham about 30 years ago I used a connector and one set of reins w/curb chain. Did you use a curb chain too?
Hey don’t get me wrong I think it is wonderful to be able to do this for a horse but at what point do you draw the line…
I bought a large pony who was beautiful black and white tobiano was ridden and trained by a heavyset cowboy type. I thought he would be perfect for my hubby. We got ready to ride one quiet Sunday morning. All tacked up and no sooner did my husband put his foot in the stirrup he was flat on his back. He didn’t even sit in the saddle and the pig reared up. I think he was resentful of that heavy cowboy and as soon as hubby stepped up he was toast. He wasn’t hurt but like you I lunged him and made him work from that day forward.
I marketed him as a keen kid rider’s pony because that is exactly what he was perfect for. He was in a lesson program in regular daily work. He was just too green and need a light weight on his back not a huge man. Lesson learned for me.
Well I hope his boot camp works for him. 
