Has anyone found that natural horsemanship training messed your horse up? How does this happen?

Heres a question for you…
Hypothetical here

Say have a 10 year old QH gelding in a stall or pen 23 hours a day, I take it out to do NH games and groom him for about hour 3 times a week, dont ride much as Im scared of him and proudly feed him the same diet as a 3 year old stud colt training for the Derby. He’s getting very stall aggressive and will not stand for grooming or let me out the saddle and bridle on. Last week he be was spooking at the flag and refusing to walk beside me when led…and he bit me.

There is an NH clinic nearby but its $300 plus requiring purchasing clinicians latest, autographed book. Would it be worth it to solve his deteriorating manners? Please help me solve this.

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My point is that the multi-level pyramid marketing scheme on steroids known as “Natural Horsemanship” is a global phenomenon. The fact that some in Europe have used or dabbled in it does not validate the method or prove that it is necessary, better, or more effective. I don’t really care who the person is that you are talking about. The exception always proves the rule.

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That’s exactly what I consider NH. Not the marketing gimmick, not the chasing the horse around.

Using psychology of horse behavior, understanding, patience, and kindness along with science to train and handle your horse and bring them happiness and comfort in the work you are doing.

Tik is a fabulous example of this. Another person who I admire for this type of work is Featherlight Horsemanship on Instagram.

I spend a lot of time doing ground work and work at liberty with my mares and they love it. It’s a fun time spent together. Nothing is forced and it’s grown my relationship with each and every one of them.

My main event horse who I have struggled to create a relationship with over the years used to run away when I go to the field. Completely barrel me over on the ground. Never looked to me. Never cared about my existence at all.

Now she runs to me when I call her. Canters across the field. Is quiet for me to handle, looks to me for direction. Chooses to be with me when free. Waits for me at the fence every morning. Our relationship has completed changed and with that so has her happiness. She is quieter, easier to manage and looks better than ever. Thanks to “NH” and learning to understand horses better and how to train them.

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hahahahahahaha hope your mouth is enjoying the taste of your foot!

Wut

@Impractical_Horsewoman,

I loved Tik Maynard’s book, his refreshing candor and his honesty about his journey as a horseman. I would love to audit or attend a clinic of his.

One of the things I like best about Tik’s approach is that it wasn’t a slavish adherence to one guru or one method; he took what he thought was valuable and worked for him from a great number of horsemen. He didn’t disengage his own critical thinking and go all in with one practitioner. He also actually has working horses and competition horses, not just horses that do NH exercises or play NH games.

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There is a version of behavior “extinction“, where the human or animal performs the current version of reaction of choice to the greatest degree possible before determining that it is, in fact, not going to work. Behaviorist see those frequently, and it falls under the category of sometimes things getting worse before they get better. It is not the only way to extinguish the behavior however.

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Something that really irritates me is blaming every horse misbehavior on “ abuse”, like it behaves that way because it was abused. Well, maybe in some cases but maybe it was a victim of ignorance and never learned what it was supposed to do? Maybe its headshy because somebody whacked it upside the head, maybe its never been taught to accept movement around the face and sick of getting poked in the eye and banged in the teeth? Real NH would deal with that, not blame abuse and preach BS theory while waving a stick.

This was consistent with my experience and a major grievance I had with the program. No, I don’t know every detail of my horse’s history, but I know more than most. I was dismayed to hear this whole narrative about him being an abuse case. I mean, yes, he was definitely soured by someone/something along the way in his training, so I was willing to go along with it, if you give “abuse” a very loose interpretation. But at some point, it started to feel more like a ploy to lower any and all expectations for his training? And also a way to manipulate clients through their egos, too, like, “Aren’t you so great for rescuing this poor horse? He is so lucky he landed with you.”

It was just weird. I could never bring myself to drink the kool aid, even when it put me in a flattering light as some kind of abused horse savior. I mean, even true abuse/neglect cases can be transformed into solid citizens with skillful training, and my horse was neither! I was definitely not looking to congratulate myself over my horse’s deteriorating behavior based on the somewhat dubious claim that he was a rescue, because even if he were a rescue, I would want and expect better from/for him.

Anyway, like a few commenters mention, I have followed/watched/read/purchased or used free trials of programs from Tik Maynard, Featherlight Horsemanship, Tristan Tucker, and Warwick Schiller. It’s why I gravitated to this trainer in the first place, because she certainly sounded like she was practicing the same techniques and ideas. But whatever she was doing, and whatever her intentions, I think the problem is she just wasn’t getting through to my horse. I remember telling myself if she had even one horse, or could point me to a former client’s horse, that I could look at and say, “that’s where I want to be in 6 months,” I would stay. But I couldn’t find one, not in the barn, not on social media. Nothing but horses pushing around yoga balls and walking in a round pen if they were being ridden at all. :confused:

I guess there is a niche for that type of trainer, who not only doesn’t shame you for not riding or competing, but who actually makes you feel like a superior horseman for doing neither. But I was not looking for that, and it didn’t do me or my horse any favors. I unfortunately can’t get my money or time back, but such is life. At least I can kvetch about it on the internet!

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Warwick Schiller is doing a good job of rethinking what he practiced in NH/R-. He is very worth following on FB or looking up on YouTube. (his more recent stuff especially )

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I feel like natural horsemanship is a very vague and blanket term that doesn’t always accurately describe the training methods someone is using. There are real scientific terms for different training methods that can be used instead. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning

People tend to associate all liberty work with “natural horsemanship”, but the central training method of natural horsemanship is just negative reinforcement, sometimes with positive punishment mixed in. Many people like Warwick Schiller and Tik Maynard are starting to use positive reinforcement instead, finding that it’s more effective and provides better results. You can do liberty work with a horse using any one of these training methods.

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I’ve watched a Tik Maynard clinic that was held at my barn (both riding and ground work) and found him to have good, no-nonsense advice. Featherlight Horsemanship - I’ve only watched a few videos, and it looked just fine.
I’ll always remember my instructors’ snippets of “wisdom” from years ago:

  • be consistent, always, every ride
  • reward / praise good, desired behavior rather than punish bad behavior
  • Make it so the horse thinks it’s his idea
  • 90% of the time, the problem isn’t your horse, it’s you
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Amen !

Sometimes I think it’s the owners who need a whack upside the head or some carrot stick.

This all makes me remember my last horse. He had apparently been NH’ed at some point because one of the idiot trainerettes tried it on him and he absolutely blew a fuse and lost his marbles. And this horse HAD been abused. If you tried to touch his ears, he would freak out. I mean, eyes bulging, sheer terror. I found out later that one of the “trainers” he had had the misfortune to encounter was fond of clocking the horses in the head when they “misbehaved” and/or grabbing the reins so she could beat them. Also, he had been eared for clipping in one of the show barns he had been at. I was able to touch his ears twice in all my time with him: once when he was tranked for another procedure and again after he had died.

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a catttle sorting stick.

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not just the Queen.
He worked with a German Derby contender at the time. He was successful with the problem at hand (but other issues arose, having nothing to do with the horse training)
The stallion went to England for stud…Lomitas.

Parelli? Nuff said.
I saw some of the training videos. My late dad would have taken the carrot stck and put welds on my legs, and snapped my arse with the bull snap lead rope!
It used to be more common, oh, 10 years ago, the Savvy Club, and such…yeah, tose guys can wreck a horse.

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I managed to avoid the NH crowd when I bought my horse in 2001. It was the era when too many devoted Parelli followers spent so much time doing his “games.” Did they ever learn to ride? A few probably did, but most of them seemed to practice bopping their horse’s muzzle by waving the lead rope up and down asking them to back up. It had a huge Parelli-approved snap attached to the lead rope and you could see the horse getting upset.

I liked John Lyons and still do, as well as Julie Goodnight. John does not like to be being referred as an NH type. His program is “conditioned response.” He had a website with a good discussion board where you could learn quite a bit. Same as COTH. In the evenings it functioned as a live discussion board. A level 2 “certified Parelli trainer” could make you a level 1 certified Parelli trainer. You and your horse had to travel John’s Colorado ranch for several 2-week long sessions to earn a certificate. I spent some time working with a John Lyon’s certified trainer and she was excellent.

Some of the concepts you learn are go-forward," 3-second rule, break things down into small steps, put a lesson plan together, reward them. If a horse has a problem like a hole in their training go back to something that works and start over. Repetitions are important. So is praise. I see NH trainers rubbing their horses necks and rewarding them while their students stand there doing nothing. They never talk about how and why horses function and learn the way they do.

We had a new boarder, a girl, 14 or 15, who had a really nice Mustang mare. Every once in a while I will tell a struggling teenager that I’m 70+ and I’ve learned a lot over many years. Then ask if I can give them some hints that could help. This girl said she wanted her horse to stand quietly in cross ties. Her horse was confused. She was moving her butt all over the place but never had a chance to stand quietly. We talked about why her horse was getting confused and the 3-second attention span. Then I told her to ignore the stuff she didn’t want unless it could be dangerous, e.g. biting, kicking. Reward what you do want - love on her. A few days later her horse was standing quietly and she could walk away few steps. Next time I saw them alone in indoor they were standing quietly. They looked great together. Her butt was glued to the saddle at the canter. She asked about using yarn reins - absolutely. She was very soft following her horse’s movements and much softer on the ground without her horse.

I get questions from time to time about how I trained my horse to so many neat things. Someone chimes in: “they’ve been together 20 years”. That’s not it. For the entire 20 years I’ve been telling him he’s a good boy. Ignore what you don’t like. They need repetitions. If you always do something exactly the same way they usually figure it out. Bopping them on the head and yelling “don’t do that” is useless. Be patient. Stay calm inside even if you are pissed off. My horse stands absolutely straight at the mounting ramp. He knows when he is doing a therapy lesson. I revived one I forgot: a light hand on the noseband says head down and be chill. His free fecal water is almost gone. He figured out if spreads his back legs apart I will clean inside his thighs. I did a lousy job last Thursday. I went to his head. When I showed up by his butt he opened it up so I could finish.

I’m a casual rider. I like to tell people I try not to go beyond 15-30 seconds of “formal” planned training. Be consistent and patient. They will figure things out if you don’t confuse or aggravate them. Those are repetitions. You can do 200 repetitions in 200 hundred days or 200 repetitions in 100 days or 200 repetitions in 20 days. A lot of what appears above fits into this technique. Lyons, not Parelli, not NH. Say good boy/girl if they do a nice transition. Don’t pause. Don’t forget. Keep saying it and you probably will get a better horse.

The best piece of training advice on Lyons’ board came up from time to time. A wife would complain about her husband. Experienced people (I’m not one of them) said you can use John Lyons’ method for the husband exactly the same way you do for your horse. Remember to start on page 1 in the ground control manual. Be patient. Repetitions. Remember to say “good boy.”

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I honestly have never found that NH has been all that beneficial regardless of the horse or trainer. Maybe it’s just those specific horses so YMMV but I was never really able to get into it for the same reasons that you’ve mentioned. Pretty much every horse became more stressed and borderline explosive even with respected trainers unfortunately so I think it just isn’t always the right tool. Anyway, I’m glad your horse is returning back to his normal self!

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I too am happy you are finding what helps the two of you click!

I was once an unwilling participant in a Parelli type session with a school pony.

After making the horse trot around us while we stood still, we were supposed to stop it, and then if it came into “our space” we had to send it backward via some move I’ve forgotten because I didn’t care then or now. Well, school pony was perfectly fine chilling there so I was like “Good pony” and stood around waiting.
The instructor asked me why I wasn’t doing anything and I said:
“Oh, he’s just standing here and not getting near me. I thought that was the point?”
Instructor: “Well get into his space and then make him back up!”
Cue my confusion: “So, he’s standing there fine and as a reward I get up in his business and force him away?” They did not like that. Lol.

I’ve only ever seen the unwashed masses doing NH and they are mostly terrible. The high level, overarching principles are great. It’s just the people implementing them are… idiots.

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