Has anyone found that natural horsemanship training messed your horse up? How does this happen?

[findeight]

Think OPs problem lies with the practitioner, not “NH” itself. The term “NH” is nothing but a marketing term anyway for common sense methods that have been around forever useful in developing horses as willing partners.

Where NH went off the rails, IMO, was when big marketing and flashy salesmen took it over. It was originally used in getting horses “broke” to be willing and trusting by people like the no nonsense Buck Brannaman (sp?) somehow now seems to appeal to mostly middle age women who are afraid to ride.

That’s just from what I have observed. No offense intended. IME horses are reactive, they are not initiators. They need specific direction and consistent, thoughtful correction. IMO, too much assumption about how a horse processes information and too little specific direction and inconsistent or no correction the horse can easily understand can confuse a horse…they don’t know what is expected or how to do it, they don’t like that and unhappy, confused horses can be unpleasant. They are not lap dogs. Surprised more of them don’t get fed up with it. If I was a horse with some of these people, I’d let them have it.

Think in OPs case, the trainer working with her horse was not practicing sound NH principles and surrounded by brainwashed clientele who don’t know any better and don’t dare ask any questions or simply say no.

OP can probably rest easy here though, decent trainer can erase the crap installed by last guru and turn him back into a willing, trusting partner.

[cayuse]

NH did not mess up my mini who needed big help when I got him, but the lessons were kept very short and I had an instructor whose timing was impeccable and she knew “when to quit”. In less intuitive hands, I could see it going south with him quickly. She was also my driving instructor so the lessons involved more than groundwork and kept his mind fresh.

[Texarkana]

Echoing what so many have said.

Natural horsemanship didn’t mess up your horse. A bad trainer messed up your horse. It happens in every discipline.

There are unfortunately a lot of underqualified trainers out there, regardless of what “brand” training methods they employ. But sometimes you just have horse/human personality conflict, too, where a capable trainer’s methods just don’t work for a particular animal.

I don’t blame you for wanting to burn your rope halters and yatch ropes. But keep an open mind. You don’t need to become a Parelli fan, but you may find some of the NH teachings pertinent and helpful when delivered in a different manner.

[Gardenhorse]

I think a huge part of effective natural horsemanship is being able to read the horse and time the release of pressure correctly. If a horse is trying to do what is asked, but doesn’t get the pressure released immediately for a try, then they can get very upset because they literally have no idea what to do to release the pressure. The really effective trainers have impeccable timing and reflexes in recognizing and rewarding the try.

[shiloh]

You absolutely hit the nail on the head.

I have been at several barns where we had devotees of “Natual Horsemanship” and um, no - just no. They could not read their horses and just kept doing the same silly exercises over and over again even when the horse was clearly over it and no longer responding. But man oh man could they talk a good game. But funny how they could never ride.

[Jackie_Cochran]

I have not had much exposure to NH, but one thing I noticed with Parelli’s video set someone lent me was the total, total, total lack of EXPLAINING stuff to the horse.

I got through the first part of the first CD, then there was this elderly Arabian mare who was trying to understand why her owner was repeatedly bopping a big bull snap HARD on her delicate lower jaw bones. The mare was not even given a chance to try and obey, the handler got more violent with her instructor yelling for her to get even harsher, and I almost broke down crying for that poor confused mare. That poor horse was not even given enough TIME to start obeying, it was just bam, Bam, BAM. And then, when the mare finally did what the instructor said she had to do was everything stopped and the mare praised? NO, it was back to bam, Bam, BAM but the instructor (Linda Parelli?) was yelling at the lady to do it even harder.

Way to train a horse, punish the horse severely for obeying you.

I have no doubt that there are decent NH trainers out there, but these people would probably be pretty good at other training methods too. But the people who think bam, Bam, BAM is the proper way to train a horse? I would never let one even get near a horse I owned. Because of the sheer brutality suffered by that poor Arabian mare that I saw in the first part of that CD I lost all interest in NH.

I got my first horse, 5 year old Anglo-Arab gelding, just gelded, when I was an elementary level rider (I had trail ridden.) I followed the Forward Seat method of training on him mostly from reading the books by Vladimir Littauer, mostly without any instruction, and he did not kill me and he ended up being a truly fabulous riding horse. If I had tried the Parelli method of NH on him he probably would have killed me rather rapidly, remember he had just been gelded as a 5 year old.

There are better ways to train a horse.

[sophie]

@shiloh

I have been at several barns where we had devotees of “Natural Horsemanship” and um, no - just no. They could not read their horses and just kept doing the same silly exercises over and over again even when the horse was clearly over it and no longer responding. But man oh man could they talk a good game. But funny how they could never ride.

I have seen this as well.
Mostly with middle-aged women / re-riders who seemed afraid of their horses and never rode, but had soooo much to say about how to train a horse…

That said - I have ALSO seen horses whose owners used NH methods well, and it worked for them.
Bu you can achieve the same thing with no-nonsense, consistent, “normal” horsemanship, IMO.

[Scribbler]

@danhelm441

I recently left a barn (felt a bit like leaving a cult) where Parelli-style natural horsemanship was the main technique used with the horses. I was suckered in by the rhetoric and felt like I was philosophically on the same page as the trainer. It wasn’t a show barn and, in fact, not a lot of riding went on. As far as my riding goals were concerned, I saw plenty of red flags early on (plenty of flags in general, if we are being honest. My horse and I would happily never see a flag again), but the training was affordable, and the facilities and turnout were nice. I thought I would just give it some time and see how the trainer did, try to keep an open mind and learn something new. My horse needed a better foundation, and a slow and careful restart from the ground seemed like a good judgment call.

Over just a few months, though, I felt that my horse went from being merely “difficult” to outright dangerous. The trainer had 2 months working 1-on-1 with the horse, then began to involve me in weekly lessons. When I saw how significantly the horse’s behavior had deteriorated, I was shocked. But the trainer explained that things often get worse before they improve, that the horse was previously shut down due to abusive training measures, and I shouldn’t be surprised if he needed to re-learn everything as if for the first time.

To me, it felt like Groundhog Day, where the horse and I were repeating the same “discussions” every time I asked for something. Those discussions escalated to arguments, and the topics of those arguments increasingly expanded to include everything from standing in the barn aisle to walking back to the pasture—things the horse did perfectly well before leaving for training. I was afraid even to go out and hand graze him because he would explode and fight from the end of the lead rope over the most minor things.

All the while, it wasn’t clear to me whether it was my fault or the training. I definitely had a number of long, brooding drives home where I contemplated whether I was the reason my horse’s behavior seemed to worsen week to week, especially since the trainer so often reassured me that her sessions with the horse were going perfectly. Every time I would try to have a frank conversation with her about it, it would naturally circle back to that self doubt and self recrimination, and I would agree to give it another month.

I finally found a new situation for the horse and moved him. A month out of that program, and it’s like I have a new horse. Yes, we had the same “arguments” at the beginning. But the confrontations were virtually one-and-done. We worked through it, the behavior stopped, and we moved on. I don’t see the same bullying/threatening behavior on the ground. Even the spookiness has improved, and that’s despite being on a new property with a smaller turnout… all that to say, WTF was that trainer doing to my horse? Has anyone else experienced these results with natural horsemanship? I’m about this close to starting a bonfire for my rope halters and 14 ft yacht rope, because all I can say is it really did a number on my horse’s sanity.

Proper groundwork requires very good timing, and attention to the whole horse. It also works better if, just as in the saddle, you teach the horse to listen and respond to minimal cues. There is little reason to “send a horse around” with vigor or to shank them with the lead rope unless you are in an absolute emergency situation where the horse is bucking and rearing in-hand. Then you do what you need to do to stay safe. Sometimes letting the horse loose to run it off is the smartest thing.

If your groundwork program had the effect your describe then it failed in either the concept or the execution and timing, and from what I’ve heard of Parelli, likely both.

When I was 14 one of my frenemies showed me how to teach my horse to back up with a plastic bag on a stick. This was long before Natural Horsemanship existed, it was just regular pyscho teenagers grasping at straws. Horse learned to back up but also to spook at every white thing like real estate signs and patches of snow on the ground. I did not know about “desensitizing” and just accepted this as a lifelong quirk. However, it was enough that I am not ever going to use a plastic bag on a horse. The larger point I take away from this is that you do not want to ever scare or upset your horse. They learn when they are calm, and they learn when you are able to apply minimal pressure and release. There is never any reason to physically “scream” at them unless your life is in danger.

Anyhow, @danhelm441, you have now learned something important. You need to be the advocate for your horse, you need to trust the red flags, and you need to learn how not to be gaslighted by incompetent trainers. All of us need to know this, and need to have the confidence to pull a horse from training or walk out of a clinic if we feel that it is having a negative effect on our horse. Most of us need to learn this through experience, as we learn what our horses need and can tolerate.

Groundwork does not have to be Parelli.

[luvmyhackney]

Parelli follow really did a number on my pony before I got him. They drilled him constantly and fried his smart little brain into a frantic uncatchable mess.

He can do something once or maybe twice and he has it for life.

I like natural horsemanship and some of the stuff is really useful, but don’t over drill it and it doesn’t work for all.

[mojo7777]

Don’t forget to throw the blue plastic tarp on the fire, lol

[Paint_Party]

@findeight

Where NH went off the rails, IMO, was when big marketing and flashy salesmen took it over. It was originally used in getting horses “broke” to be willing and trusting by people like the no nonsense Buck Brannaman (sp?) somehow now seems to appeal to mostly middle age women who are afraid to ride.

Let’s all have a virtual cocktail, those of us of a certain age, and reminisce about the early days of Equine Affaires, Equitannia and EquiFest. When vendor booths were almost outnumbered by the virgin crop of mass-marketed “horse whisperers.” Ah, those early days, when John Lyons, Pat Parelli, Monty Roberts and GaWaNi Pony Boy would try to outdo each other with their presentations, demonstrations, book signings (ironically most of the books were ghost written ) and an assortment of logo-enhanced doo-dads. Sometimes their booths would be within earshot of each other, all inside the same exhibit hall, and the tension was palpable! Who would glean the most $ from earnest attendees seeking knowledge?

[KBC]

@sascha

Enjoy your bonfire!

Yup, just this…but don’t throw everything out with the bath water, there are, I believe, many many forms of natural horsemanship, and those where no one seems to get around to riding are to be avoided…

[McGurk]

@findeight

Where NH went off the rails, IMO, was when big marketing and flashy salesmen took it over. It was originally used in getting horses “broke” to be willing and trusting by people like the no nonsense Buck Brannaman (sp?) somehow now seems to appeal to mostly middle age women who are afraid to ride.

THIS. This, a hundred times this.

I have described a certain NH practitioner as 50 cents of commonsense horsemanship wrapped up in $50 of marketing.

I suspect what happened to the OP’s horse is that he was Natural Horsemanshipped to death, to the point where he completely shut down and just decided to ignore any and all stimuli under the guise of being “densensitized.” I have seen that particular phenomena before.

Agree that the problem is not NH per se, but an undereducated practitioner.

Glad the horse is out of there.

[anon68314200]

Check with Warwick Schiller

[Ajierene]

I have not problem with the concepts of Natural Horsemanship - it’s the practice/teaching of a particular person that aren’t good.

Case in point, I started working with a couple and their pleasure horses last fall. The husband showed me what he was doing and I was like yeayea all good - the horses didn’t seem happy but I had no need for that so just didn’t even address it on first visit. He was doing something in the round pen with a long crop to get the horse to move in a certain way. I merely told him, with 18 year olds, sometimes that stuff is just a bit lost on them. We continued to talk about how it isn’t bad per se but may be a bit like teaching a horse a new language.

While I was riding them, the one horse would not stand at the mounting block. I don’t know his history, other than he was a lesson horse. But he seemed nervous/worried about mounting. So I used a classic Natural Horsemanship move - pressure and release - step on the bottom step, back off, on and off several times until he settles (with good boys and breaks). Then, gathering the reins was a trigger, and putting your foot in the stirrup. The couple was away for a bit, then winter made riding less than ideal so we started up again a month ago and the couple was very engaged. The horse now pretty much stands at the mounting block and they told me he previously would not only not stand but would rush off once someone was on/half on. Now, we are at the point where we can walk up to the top step, pick up/drop reins maybe 3 times, foot in stirrup and out maybe twice, then get on and he’s good.

That’s all Natural Horsemanship I learned.

NOW - counter that with the stick thing. We were working in the roundpen a bit over a month ago (when we first started back up) and they did mention he always seemed tense in the roundpen except when I brought him in. Initially, I had no answer. On another subject, I asked for the long stick to show them something. Horse was already in the roundpen calmly hanging out. As SOON as I walked in with the stick, he just lost his brain - he would run about a quarter of the way around, outside turn, run back a quarter, outside turn, repeat until stick was removed from the roundpen and he took a breath.

We all looked at each other and light bulbs went off - they had always walked into the roundpen with the stick so never noticed the difference. Other horse did not have that reaction (old ranch horse) so it wasn’t the couple, it was something in that horse’s past.

All that to illustrate - it isn’t the type of training, it is the practice/teaching. This couple were fairly novice horse people. They had leased before but not really had gotten a lot of instruction, then bought these horses and kept them at home and no one that taught them the natural horsemanship skills said anything about not all horses needed X, Y, Z; or possible issues.

Anyone worth their salt needs to explain these things - they have two horses with two different personalities and we spend a lot of time discussing how the horses are ridden differently because of that. I see the same issues no matter what methods a trainer uses - if the trainer is unwilling to adjust, then some horses will suffer.

[eightpondfarm]

Glad you divorced yourself from the cult. And the thing that Scribbler said rings true to me:

@Scribbler

Anyhow, @danhelm441, you have now learned something important. You need to be the advocate for your horse, you need to trust the red flags, and you need to learn how not to be gaslighted by incompetent trainers. All of us need to know this, and need to have the confidence to pull a horse from training or walk out of a clinic if we feel that it is having a negative effect on our horse. Most of us need to learn this through experience, as we learn what our horses need and can tolerate.

i do ‘groundwork’ but i don’t follow anyone. I just try to see everything from a horse’s point of view and do what i think they need to see/feel to get them to do what i’m after. It’s important to my way of thinking, that they respond willingly, to as little coercion as possible. That usually works out for me and my horses.

We were attempting a turn on the haunches last lesson, and i hopped off my mare and with my 47" whip, i gently touched her hind legs at the pastern and kept it there (lightly) and moved her a step, then another one toward me. With a lot of praise (big parrty!) Then we walked around a little bit to unwind her brain, and same procedure the other direction. I called it “Turn”. When i remounted, i gave her the same word, but with my rider’s cues and got one step. That was all i wanted and i was overjoyed! I find, with this mare, now that we have a good relationship, is i just need to ask her in a way she understands.

[Djones]

Done well, no. I use a good bit of the basics you’d pull from Buck or Jon Ensign, or the like.

Two cases where it messed up an otherwise solid horse.

Grey mare who ended up entirely void of any respect for humans on the ground. She would just walk through you to leave her stall or whatnot. She was nice to ride, I mean good enough, but her owner had really gone off the deep end of Parelli but had no idea what she was doing. You could NOT get this mare’s attention on the ground. I was offered her for free and I don’t mind a project but she was worthless to me.

Horse #2 the owner was a Clinton fan. Her nice big appendix gelding hated hated hated her insistence on applying The Method to get in hus head?? before she got on him. He would express that hate by sulling, rearing, pinning his ears, angry eyes and muzzle…he was just so effing over it. She hauled him a long ass way to spend 2 weeks at Clinton’s in TX. that poor horse came home with his sides chewed up from spurs. I don’t know WHAT happened, but I do know she leased him to a nice rider who didn’t do Clinton and the horse is now muccchhhhh happier. Nice big gelding with a good brain once he was allowed to have a brain.

[endlessclimb]

I will say that nearly every horse that has had extensive “Natural Horsemanship” ground training has the most miserable, pissed off look on their face. It’s one of the first ways I know someone is into that mass-marketed crap - that, and the “carrot stick” or flag.

[eightpondfarm]

@endlessclimb

“carrot stick”

i use carrots a lot in my training… what is a carrot stick? i might need one

[endlessclimb]

It’s a stiff whip. To me, it feels like the handle and shaft of a golf club. It has a loop on the end where you can attach a lash.

It must have majikal powers, too, because every NH practitioner ever markets one.