Has anyone found that natural horsemanship training messed your horse up? How does this happen?

[sportyspicepony]

@Ajierene

I always bristle when I hear people say things like “I only use R+ training” because you know what, the above was mostly P-. The punishment - or pressure if you prefer - was the hand signals and body movement. Getting into the horse’s space, as it were, to move the horse. The negative (remember, this is math not emotions) was the removal of that when the horse did what was asked.

Yes, there was a little break there where the alfalfa was shown to the horse and the horse approached, but then back to P- as above

Sorry, not trying to be nitpicky, but negative punishment means that you’re taking away a favorable/pleasant stimulus in order to reduce an undesirable behavior. The above is an example of negative reinforcement, which is the removal of an aversive stimulus to increase a desired behavior. The aversive stimulus would be the hand and body movement, and the horse moves away from it to make it stop.

@Ajierene

I touched on this in my previous post, but the only way to never stress a horse out is to never do anything with it and never go anywhere with it. All training will involve a certain amount of stress, even if it is just at the beginning.

I’m not sure if you’ve ever tried positive reinforcement, but if you do you might realize that this is actually not true. The learning process can be fun and exciting for the learner.

However, I’m also not saying that a horse’s life should never involve any amount of stress or fear. The point is just that when you are training, you don’t have to incorporate stress and fear into the process in order for the animal to learn - and it is in fact counterproductive. No animal is learning when they’re under stress. I’ll repost the great snippet that @scislandsprite posted earlier in the thread:

When Praise is Not Enough
If your horse has some very bad habits, and words of encouragement are not enough to set a platform for a friendly working relationship, then it goes without saying that you have to be firm. You might even have to sharply reprimand your horse to get his attention, stop the behavior and show him who’s in charge.
This brings up an important point regarding the prefrontal cortex and the dopamine reward system: Once you have completed the necessary correction, your horse’s brain is now in a fear-based mode. Although he initially acts more alert and becomes more obedient, this occurs at a cost to his intelligence. With his recent mistake at the center of his attention, he becomes more fearful and concerned about the events that just transpired. At this point, he is not in a position to learn anything. Fear can stop a mistake, but it will not help him learn an alternative form of behavior and, most importantly, develop an intimate, respectful bond with you, the rider.
Here’s the brain science behind the process: After a harsh reprimand, the horse’s prefrontal cortex gets turned off and the amygdala, the fear center, takes over. Since the prefrontal cortex is crucial for developing a sense of self as well as motivation, intelligence, creativity, alertness and learning, having it shut down is problematic. With the prefrontal-cortex function impaired, the amygdala gets activated. This smaller, almond-shaped group of cells is programmed to respond to any unpredictable or dangerous experience by preparing for flight or fight. So, when a horse goes into fear mode and the amygdala is turned on, he becomes temporarily more alert, but less intelligent and less able to learn.

Brain-Based Dressage

[Ajierene]

@sportyspicepony

Sorry, not trying to be nitpicky, but negative punishment means that you’re taking away a favorable/pleasant stimulus in order to reduce an undesirable behavior. The above is an example of negative reinforcement, which is the removal of an aversive stimulus to increase a desired behavior. The aversive stimulus would be the hand and body movement, and the horse moves away from it to make it stop.

My mistake, I was writing in a rush and my brain likes to mix and mash the quadrants sometimes. Though I think we can both agree that R+ was not used.

As far as your comment about positive reinforcement and “training can be fun” - stress does not mean training is not fun. The first time you take a horse away from it’s herd/mother there is going to be a level of stress. If you do not address that stress, then you are not going to have a fun session.

Most people don’t realize they are using factors to alleviate stress - everything from talking to their horse, to petting, to brushing, etc. can all be stress reliefs.

But there is also redirecting - pulling the halter so the horse stops looking at what it’s looking at and starts looking at you or getting into it’s space and moving it when it’s in the round pen. A lot of these things we do are not R+ and are establishing that we are alpha.

Keep in mind there are stress levels that are not as obvious as bouncing around on the end of a lead and if the stress level is low enough, the horse may not exhibit any signs of stress. That does not mean they are not feeling a level of stress.

Of course stress, visual signs, and how a horse reacts to stress comes down to their training or lack thereof so many may not be obvious on a well schooled horse but more obvious on a younger horse or horse with holes in their training.

[eightpondfarm]

@Ajierene

Though I think we can both agree that R+ was not used.

were you there? no.
You decided that what i did was to push and chase. I did not.

@Ajierene

A lot of these things we do are not R+ and are establishing that we are alpha.

why do that? why establish dominance? Why not instead establish that together we can do things that are fun and make us happy?

[Ajierene]

@sportyspicepony

However, I’m also not saying that a horse’s life should never involve any amount of stress or fear. The point is just that when you are training , you don’t have to incorporate stress and fear into the process in order for the animal to learn - and it is in fact counterproductive. No animal is learning when they’re under stress. I’ll repost the great snippet that @scislandsprite posted earlier in the thread:

I think you are misreading this article. This article does not, to me, say to NEVER stress your horse, but to focus on rewards. The horse in the example that was a “limo trying to turn into a Volkswagen Bug” was did not shut down because he suffered stress. The horse shut down because he was OVER stressed.

The part you are quoting is the first paragraph of a section. It goes on to state that after a “harsh reprimand” you need to bring the horse back to a better state of mind. The article does not state that “harsh reprimand” is wrong, but that it’s aftermath needs proper approach. The article goes on to state that consistentency is key - both in reprimand and praise.

Nowhere in this article do I see “never stress your horse out” but be mindful that some things are stressful and how to work through that stress.

Two things that I preach that are discussed in this article.

One is to focuse on the reward/positive. This is especially important with have anxious horses or riders, one thing I discuss is if you have a day that is going downhill, find a way to end on a good note - even if that good note is just standing for 2 seconds. Then focus your memory on that good note that it ended on - it helps in the future, both for you and your horse.

The other is increments - you want to push the envelope, not tear it. So if your horse isn’t good at something, break it down into steps and reward each step accomplished and build on that. Again, this doesn’t mean your horse isn’t going to experience any stress because you broke a big step into 10 little ones, but it will experience a low enough amount of stress that it will be able to work through. The more small increments of stress you can work through with your horse, the better it’s capability to work through larger amounts of stress and the better everyone is for it.

So yes, you want to focus on reward, focuse on positive as much as possible but stress happens and learning to deal with it is important as well.

[sportyspicepony]

@Ajierene

But there is also redirecting - pulling the halter so the horse stops looking at what it’s looking at and starts looking at you or getting into it’s space and moving it when it’s in the round pen. A lot of these things we do are not R+ and are establishing that we are alpha.

I don’t disagree that things things are not R+. I do disagree that it’s not possible to train a horse without “establishing that we are alpha”.

[sportyspicepony]

@Ajierene

Nowhere in this article do I see “never stress your horse out” but be mindful that some things are stressful and how to work through that stress.

I have also never said to never stress your horse out. I’m saying that it’s possible to teach a horse new things without resorting to forceful or aversive methods.

[sportyspicepony]

I think we agree on the fundamentals - as flight animals, horses are bound to experience stress over new things. And we agree that stress is counter productive to learning so something needs to be done to manage the stress and reduce it. I’m saying that R+ is a very effective and easy way to reduce a horse’s stress levels when new things are being asked of it, because they learn that learning can be fun for them, and it’s enjoyable rather than scary.

[Ajierene]

@sportyspicepony

I don’t disagree that things things are not R+. I do disagree that it’s not possible to train a horse without “establishing that we are alpha”.

It depends on what you view as being the alpha, I suppose. The herd leader- alpha - protects the herd. That’s what I do, I protect and defend the herd so the herd doesn’t have to worry about things. It is not a show of dominance, but establishing leadership.

Maybe you have a negative connotation with the concept? Maybe another phrase or word would be better?

@sportyspicepony

I have also never said to never stress your horse out. I’m saying that it’s possible to teach a horse new things without resorting to forceful or aversive methods.

You and I can agree on that. I am not sure where I ever said anything about forceful or aversive. Perhaps you can point me to where I stated that so I can clarify.

[Ajierene]

@sportyspicepony

I think we agree on the fundamentals - as flight animals, horses are bound to experience stress over new things. And we agree that stress is counter productive to learning so something needs to be done to manage the stress and reduce it. I’m saying that R+ is a very effective and easy way to reduce a horse’s stress levels when new things are being asked of it, because they learn that learning can be fun for them, and it’s enjoyable rather than scary.

All I am saying is R+ is a great tool but if it the only tool in your toolbox, you are only going to get so far in training - like never riding because riding a horse, by definition is not strictly R+ and never will be.

That’s the crux of why I bristle at people that state they only use R+.

[Ajierene]

@eightpondfarm

were you there? no.
You decided that what i did was to push and chase. I did not.

R+ is reward to continue behavior - that’s it. That is all that quadrant does. Tell me how you did not use any of the 4 quadrants. Explain to me how your actions did not touch on any of the other 4 quadrants.

[scislandsprite]

@eightpondfarm

@Ajierene

A lot of these things we do are not R+ and are establishing that we are alpha.

why do that? why establish dominance?

Just wanted to clarify something! The whole notion of an alpha, or dominance theory, is not true with horse training.

The idea of an alpha was originally introduced by Dr. David Mech in his research with wolves. Later he corrected himself but as false information spreads much faster than the information correcting it, the concept of alphas is still very common to hear about.

Edit: Typo

[LilRanger]

@sascha

@Libby2563

I think there can be some degree of things getting worse before they improve

I’m having trouble trying to come up with a scenario where this would occur. Can you help me out?

Maybe I’m thinking too much in the box/from personal experience because I can’t get around thinking that there is almost no handling scenario when I’d be ok with the horse getting worse before it improved, previously shut down or not.

I think the term is “extinction burst” where unwanted, but ingrained behaviour/ response to stimulus reaches a crescendo before being replaced with the desired behaviour/response.

[Ajierene]

@scislandsprite

Just wanted to clarify something! The whole notion of an alpha, or dominance theory, is not true with horse training.

The idea of an alpha was originally introduced by Dr. David Mech in his research with wolves. Later he corrected himself but as false information spreads much faster than the information correcting it, the concept of alphas is still very common to hear about.

I never heard of Dr. David Mech before so I looked it up and got this:

One of the outdated pieces of information is the concept of the alpha wolf. “Alpha” implies competing with others and becoming top dog by winning a contest or battle. However, most wolves who lead packs achieved their position simply by mating and producing pups, which then became their pack. In other words they are merely breeders, or parents, and that’s all we call them today, the “breeding male,” “breeding female,” or “male parent,” “female parent,” or the “adult male” or “adult female.” In the rare packs that include more than one breeding animal, the “dominant breeder” can be called that, and any breeding daughter can be called a “subordinate breeder.”

From this website: https://davemech.org/wolf-news-and-information/

While I appreciate he appended his original teachings, I do not see how this has anything to do with horse herd behavior. Can you elaborate?

[sportyspicepony]

You can definitely use R+ to translate to riding and a lot of people do it! It’s just a matter of teaching tactile cues for the gaits or movements that you want.

[Ajierene]

@sportyspicepony

You can definitely use R+ to translate to riding and a lot of people do it! It’s just a matter of teaching tactile cues for the gaits or movements that you want.

what do you do to get a horse to move off from the mounting block once you are on?

Remember, I am not saying NEVER use R+, just that it isn’t your only tool and never will be - is not the only tool in any kind of training/teaching.

[sportyspicepony]

You would train the horse to respond to your leg cue just like normal, but using R+ instead of R-. I promise it’s doable and there are actually a lot of articles and videos out there on this if you Google “applying R+ to riding”. You train the desired behavior first, and then add a cue once the horse understands what they’re supposed to do. It’s just like teaching any other behavior

Can You Ride With R+?

[scislandsprite]

Yes sorry for any confusion! IME, it’s incredibly common for trainers, especially the more popular ones in NH, to push the idea that the person/owner/rider etc has to be the leader/alpha of the horse because that’s how it is in the wild.

However, research about herd dynamics has shown that this isn’t how horse herds operate at all! It’s very fluid and horses do not purposefully try to position themselves as the leader. Horse herd behavior has a very fluid dynamic so any “pecking order” observed is not actually a horse going out of their way to be dominant or establish leadership.

The only reason I mention it is seeing it pop up so much, commonly when a trainer is giving reasoning for why they are using/teaching a certain training techniques. The training technique can still be effective but it’s not because the horse thinks that the trainer is now their alpha.

Example: The concept of join-up. I was once told to use the join-up technique in a round pen and that the reason is because the horse would see me as the alpha/lead horse. However, researchers replicated the join-up technique with a remote control car and saw the horse responded the exact same way in traditional join-up with a person compared to using the remote control car. The horse was responding to the join-up technique because it uses pressure & release (R-), not because the horse thought the person or remote control car was their alpha.

Additionally, trying to act as an alpha horse doesn’t make the horse sees us as an alpha horse as they are aware that we aren’t horses but besides the point

[scislandsprite]

@Ajierene

@sportyspicepony

You can definitely use R+ to translate to riding and a lot of people do it! It’s just a matter of teaching tactile cues for the gaits or movements that you want.

what do you do to get a horse to move off from the mounting block once you are on?

Remember, I am not saying NEVER use R+, just that it isn’t your only tool and never will be - is not the only tool in any kind of training/teaching.

You could use a target, either handheld or stationary (such as a cone) if you’d like to not use a verbal cue!

Hannah Weston with Connecting Training does a lot of R+ training both under saddle and on the ground. Connection Training has lots of information on their website, YouTube, training community, and book.

Georgia Bruce has represented Australia at both the 2004 and 2008 Paralympic games and bases her training off both R- & R+. She has YouTube videos showing her clicker training while riding, even during flying changes and the piaffe. I don’t train with strictly R+ but her videos are super interesting!

[sportyspicepony]

@Ajierene

You and I can agree on that. I am not sure where I ever said anything about forceful or aversive. Perhaps you can point me to where I stated that so I can clarify.

Sorry for all the separate posts, I was on my phone before so wasn’t able to quote. Just catching up here - But in this context I’m using “aversive” in the training stimulus sense, which is just anything involving pressure, that evokes avoidance behaviors in a horse, aka any stimuli used with negative reinforcement training. And this was in response to your statement that any training is inevitably going to involve stress.

So I’ll clarify this by saying, it is possible to train a horse with fully R+ training and you don’t have to mix it together with R-, although this is admittedly rare in the horse world because it’s not what we’ve all learned. I’ve personally barely scratched the surface in terms of my own R+ training with my horse, and since she’s already been trained with R- it complicates things. But other people more experienced and knowledgeable than me have been pretty successful with it.

Even though I am definitely very far from being an expert, I can’t resist stepping in when I see commonly held misconceptions about R+ training because once you learn more about it, it really does make a ton of sense.

[Curly_Feather]

This is my horse too. He is a joy to work with, but at one point during our trailer-loading journey (which was never bad, I just wanted to work on self-loading), I said to my NH friend who was helping me that I don’t feel completely safe with the R+ training. We were using clicker training with food reward, and it just made a normally very confident horse over-the-top pushy.

We worked with pressure/release with a dressage whip from then on, with a much calmer horse and a much safer handler.