Has anyone found that natural horsemanship training messed your horse up? How does this happen?

[danhelm441]

I think we agree on the fundamentals - as flight animals, horses are bound to experience stress over new things. And we agree that stress is counter productive to learning so something needs to be done to manage the stress and reduce it. I’m saying that R+ is a very effective and easy way to reduce a horse’s stress levels when new things are being asked of it, because they learn that learning can be fun for them, and it’s enjoyable rather than scary.

All I can say is that this doesn’t bear out in my experience with R+ — with dogs or horses. Even my very food motivated rescue dog, when I first got him, was so anxious that he wouldn’t eat treats offered to him, let alone perform a behavior to get the treat. He still often won’t accept treats from strangers. And I’ve had the same experience with my horse. He’s happy to perform all his clicker trained behaviors on nice, sunny days in a familiar place. And yes, for specific things that used to trigger anxious behaviors, like pawing at the mounting block or throwing up his head for bridling, clicker training was able to strip the anxiety out of those experiences so that he is eager to show off those skills. But that’s because, in addition to using the clicker to countercondition a response, I was also able to consistently reproduce the trigger until he was pretty well desensitized to it and even had a positive association. Unfortunately not every circumstance you find yourself in with a horse is as easy to reproduce as bridling or standing at the mounting block.You need more tools in the toolbox to safely manage and redirect anxiety than just waving treats and consistent exposure to the environments that seem to put your horse over threshold.

[sportyspicepony]

I’ve said it probably ten times but I’ll say it again. Using A training method that doesn’t involve stress and aversive tactics doesnt automatically mean that your animal will never again be stressed or anxious in their life. Training via R+ instead of R- involves a lot more than waving treats so whenever any of y’all use that as a synonym it honestly just tells me that you have no idea what you’re talking about. It just really irks me how many people are willing to come on here and say that something definitely doesn’t work when it’s very clear that you just don’t understand it.

[Eclectic_Horseman]

I have never used a clicker or waved a treat in front of a horse, so…

Positive reinforcement is used in systematic, step by step training which lays a solid foundation of trust and eagerness to please. It starts by teaching the animal what learning is, and how to do it. Animals don’t start out understanding that the human wants something from them, and if they can figure out what the human wants and do it, then they will be rewarded.

If you have an inattentive horse, the way to get the focus back on you is to change the conversation. Do something that is within the horse’s comfort zone but will take his full attention. Once you have the attention back, then carry on in baby steps.

If this happens frequently, there may be some holes in the basic training that you need to go back and address so that the horse understands what you want. Obviously, there are also potential health issues and rider/horse temperament/ability mismatches that need to be ruled out.

[sportyspicepony]

The fundamentals of natural horsemanship are actually negative reinforcement or pressure and release, not positive reinforcement. If your R+ training is creating a pushy horse, that actually means that it’s not being done right… and I’m not trying to neg on you or your friends training skills, because it’s definitely a journey and I’m DEFINITELY no expert. But it’s a common misconception that R+ training creates treat mugging horses when that’s just not true if it’s done correctly.

[Ajierene]

@sportyspicepony

You would train the horse to respond to your leg cue just like normal, but using R+ instead of R-. I promise it’s doable and there are actually a lot of articles and videos out there on this if you Google “applying R+ to riding”. You train the desired behavior first , and then add a cue once the horse understands what they’re supposed to do. It’s just like teaching any other behavior

Leg cue is R-. It is taking away pressure to reward the horse for doing what you want. That’s in the R- quadrant.

The R+ quadrant is ONLY give reward for desired behavior. In order to train a horse to ride using ONLY the R+ quadrant, you would have to sit on the horse immoble, constanstly saying say “walk” and reward the horse when they step forward. Which begs the question on how to train going left or right.

You can also slip into P- and P+. Both are meant to extinguish behavior - horse tends to fall out of the trot, you give leg or tap with crop until horse is willingly going forward. You are adding pressure and taking it away when the behavior (falling out of the trot) ceases - that’s P+.

There is no issue with using all 4 quadrants - yes, you should definitely reward as often as possible and I have seen many horses go a lot better with just a verbal “good boy/girl” during training and encourage verbal and tactile rewards during riding.

I took a quick look at the link provided but don’t have time right now to look more but will later today. Overally, though, this whole R+ idea just seems a grave misunderstanding of operant conditioning and how it relates to training.

[Ajierene]

Can you point to some sources for this?

For clarification, I never stated that horses purposely position themselves to be herd learder - that is not in their cognitive wheelhouse - but some are leaders and once they are there, they take on that role until a more dominant horse comes along.

[eightpondfarm]

@Ajierene

There is no issue with using all 4 quadrants - yes, you should definitely reward as often as possible and I have seen many horses go a lot better with just a verbal “good boy/girl” during training and encourage verbal and tactile rewards during riding

well now, i agree with you. When i say i train R+ i mean it. Most of the time, and for sure all of my focus is toward training without stress. Nuanced movement away …even an eye squinch…hopefully i will notice and back off/start over from the beginning/change directions/try something else and come back. The world is not all black and white. We are not doing horses in a sterile environment and we are not robots. When i tell folks on here i train in R+ they get all strange and purist and black and white. It’s NOT like that. It’s real world. But the focus, the goal, the method is to train a horse by keeping that horse in a calm happy state of mind.
You do not get to negate the process by trying to tack it down around the edges.

But there are lines in the sand. >>>What i do NOT do is move the horses’ feet to get her to recognize i am alpha<<<that is not part of it at all.

[sportyspicepony]

Sorry but what you’re saying is very wrong about how you would apply R+ to this situation lol I posted an article that explains one way to do this, I encourage you to read that. You are the one who has a grave misunderstanding which is totally ok but I have to tell you that your interpretation is not correct

[sascha]

@eightpondfarm

the method is to train a horse by keeping that horse in a calm happy state of mind.

And when the horse does not start in a calm, happy state of mind? Walk away and come back tomorrow? Leave the horse fretting in bad weather at the gate?

I am ALL for putting and keeping horses in a calm and happy state of mind, but sometimes they just don’t start there, don’t want to go there, and like it or not, every time we handle a horse we are training it

[eightpondfarm]

@Ajierene

@eightpondfarm

NH training and making a horse move to signals… yes, i do that. In fact, i had to move a bunch of horses around today due to incoming storms. When i got to the new one that is just barely beginning halter training i initially tried to move him with arm signals. Adept as he is (and most mustangs are pretty much slam-dunk with free lunging because they are really attentive to body language) well, he didn’t understand my ask. Was trying to direct him off the circling around stuff and through the front part of the barn to the back half where i had some alfalfa waiting. He just didn’t ever turn in. I turned on the light trying to make it more appealing, still no go. So i picked up a big handful of alfalfa from the next corral and presented it to him near the barn entrance. He approached, i let him have some and then made the ‘go back’ hand/arms i give to the dogs when directing them. And, horse GOT IT! Well, i thought that was pretty cool.

I always bristle when I hear people say things like “I only use R+ training” because you know what, the above was mostly P-. The punishment - or pressure if you prefer - was the hand signals and body movement. Getting into the horse’s space, as it were, to move the horse. The negative (remember, this is math not emotions) was the removal of that when the horse did what was asked.

See…here you misconstrued what i said. Did i say “I only use R+ training”? No, i did not.

Secondly, “was the hand signals and body movement” did i say i used body movement? No, i did not.

There was zero punishment in the event i described. None. Not an iota.

I raised an arm, i moved an arm out to my side… i was oh, 30 feet from the horse AND moved away when he was doing a circle…i backed up. i moved further from his space. Did not want him to trot around in a circle, i wanted him to go inside the barn. He thought he was doing what my arms were (ignorant arms!) asking… I continued to ask him to go into the barn in several different ways…and it wasn’t until i offered him the alfalfa that he understood he was to be fed and that feeding was inside. It was a communication event. No pushing, no pressure… it was me, trying to learn what would work to let him know that inside the barn was what i wanted, and that what was inside the barn was a good thing. In retrospect, what i SHOULD have done is go way back inside the barn, pick up a flake of alfalfa …show it to him and ask him to come with me to get it. To follow me in. I am learning…just.learning. The goal of course is to get the horses to do what i’m asking without pressure or strife.

[scislandsprite]

Yes I will link some. Also just wanted to clarify, I wasn’t trying to imply that you specifically were pushing that notion or even anyone in the thread. This is genuinely just what I’ve heard from NH trainers and followers! Not that their training is ineffective or doesn’t do anything, it just works for a reason that’s different from what is being said and the idea of dominant alphas doesn’t have much of a role in the equine world.

1. Position statement on the use/misuse of leadership and dominance concepts in horse training (2017) Sorry this one is a tad long, if you scroll down to “Take Home Messages”, that has some of the key points in a more condensed format.

2. Dominance and Leadership: Useful Concepts in Human–Horse Interactions? (2017)

3. Preliminary Investigations Into the Ethological Relevance of Round-Pen (Round-Yard) Training of Horses (2008)

4. For clarification, both Remote-Controlled Cars Used to Study Round Pen Training (2012) as well as Researchers urge rethink of ‘Monty Roberts’ horse training method (2012) both refer to join-up and the same study.

[scislandsprite]

@sascha

@eightpondfarm

the method is to train a horse by keeping that horse in a calm happy state of mind.

And when the horse does not start in a calm, happy state of mind? Walk away and come back tomorrow? Leave the horse fretting in bad weather at the gate?

I am ALL for putting and keeping horses in a calm and happy state of mind, but sometimes they just don’t start there, don’t want to go there, and like it or not, every time we handle a horse we are training it

I think you can still train if they’re not starting off in the ideal mindset regardless of what quadrant(s) you’re using. If you were planning on having a dressage ride but your horse is not in the right state of mind then it’s likely that you will just work on something that is less stressful for the horse that they are already confident with. The rider can change the ride to focus on lateral movements and serpentines etc instead of doing something that could amp them up like flying changes and extended gaits. Those could be saved for the next day.

[scislandsprite]

@Ajierene

@sportyspicepony

You would train the horse to respond to your leg cue just like normal, but using R+ instead of R-. I promise it’s doable and there are actually a lot of articles and videos out there on this if you Google “applying R+ to riding”. You train the desired behavior first , and then add a cue once the horse understands what they’re supposed to do. It’s just like teaching any other behavior

Leg cue is R-. It is taking away pressure to reward the horse for doing what you want. That’s in the R- quadrant.

The R+ quadrant is ONLY give reward for desired behavior. In order to train a horse to ride using ONLY the R+ quadrant, you would have to sit on the horse immoble, constanstly saying say “walk” and reward the horse when they step forward. Which begs the question on how to train going left or right.

If you wanted to use R+ under saddle, you could definitely use “New cue, old cue” for the walk cue that you have already taught on the ground. Assuming you have taught walking on the ground via R+ already, you would touch them with your legs, and then use old cue for the walk. When the new cue always comes before the old cue, they can connect the behavior. It’s not R- unless you are using pressure & release for the leg aid by holding it until they walk on. Ideally the leg is never being introduced as an aversive stimulus so they wouldn’t see it as aversive pressure.

On the flip side of old cue new cue, this is sometimes how the piaffe is taught via R- and it’s how I did it. I taught it on the ground and always used a specific vocal cue. Then in the saddle, I would give the new cue (just my seat & leg aids really) and the old verbal cue after. After, I would get the piaffe with just my seat & leg without the verbal cue.

R+ is not the only viable method for riding but it is possible. Of course anyone can use as much or as little R+ as they would like! However, to say that it cannot be done goes against operant conditioning.

[B_and_B]

[quote=“eightpondfarm, post:148, topic:771493, full:true”]

@KBC

@eightpondfarm

called bad trainers ‘cowboy trainers’. This is what i mean…macho. As-in: I AM MAN. YOU WILL DO WHAT I SAY.
[/quote]

Well say abusive, not Cowboy then!

There are good, bad, and many indifferent trainers in every discipline, and wearing all sorts of different clothes.

hmmm. nope. when i envision the type in my head: they are western men, jeans, cowboy hat and microphone. Looking pretty cowboyish …and why they all have a drawley way of speaking, even the ones in missouri! beats me.

That is probably one of the most offensive posts I’ve seen in awhile. Go back and put any other gender or cultural group in place of men in western clothing and read it through.
Having said that. I’ve seen two truly abusive trainers, one was a petite woman who had the delightful habit of beating on a horse with a dressage whip until it left marks. The other was a big man, in the jumper world, he did Not look abusive, but he was big enough and strong enough that the horses had no option but to obey when he was riding them. They were not enjoyable to work with as an exercise rider for him, all coiled anxiety.

[Ajierene]

@scislandsprite

If you wanted to use R+ under saddle, you could definitely use “New cue, old cue” for the walk cue that you have already taught on the ground. Assuming you have taught walking on the ground via R+ already, you would touch them with your legs, and then use old cue for the walk.

Use of your leg immediately puts you into at least R- territory - the removal of an unfavorable event (touching horse with legs) after the display of desired behavior (horse walking forward). That you then praise the horse/use clicker/pat, etc. means you just jumped fromR- to R+.

BF Skinner’s study of Operant Conditioning happened in a bubble - the Skinner box had one stimulus (food/electric shock) and one operation (lever). There were no cues, no direction - the rat figured out what to do without any interference. As soon as you add the idea of wanting someone to do something at a particular time, you cannot just stay in one quadrant. If Skinner wanted the rat to press the lever every 5 seconds, he could do something like shock him at every 5 seconds (R-) and when the rat presses the lever the shock goes away (R-) it gets the food (R+) and then if the rat presses the lever prior to 5 seconds, either no food or next food isn’t given (P-).

Or he could just give food every 5 seconds but that doesn’t guarantee the rat won’t keep pressing it (see studies by BF Skinner and others on Reinforcement Schedules). So, we have food every 5 seconds (R+), coupled with no food other times (P-), then maybe coupled with shock if the rat waits to long (R-).

That’s why Operant Conditioning is called operant Conditioning, not operant training.

[sascha]

@scislandsprite

I think you can still train if they’re not starting off in the ideal mindset regardless of what quadrant(s) you’re using. If you were planning on having a dressage ride but your horse is not in the right state of mind then it’s likely that you will just work on something that is less stressful for the horse that they are already confident with. The rider can change the ride to focus on lateral movements and serpentines etc instead of doing something that could amp them up like flying changes and extended gaits. Those could be saved for the next day.

Right, but that’s just good training and horsemanship.

The real question is what do you do in real life scenarios where you don’t have a choice and the horse is already in an unproductive mindset? Do you open the gate, get the hell out of the way and hope the horse makes it to their stall and not down the lane and out into traffic? Or, do you do what you have to do to ‘break through’ the panic and get the horse into the barn without R+ methods?

[Scribbler]

@sascha

@scislandsprite

I think you can still train if they’re not starting off in the ideal mindset regardless of what quadrant(s) you’re using. If you were planning on having a dressage ride but your horse is not in the right state of mind then it’s likely that you will just work on something that is less stressful for the horse that they are already confident with. The rider can change the ride to focus on lateral movements and serpentines etc instead of doing something that could amp them up like flying changes and extended gaits. Those could be saved for the next day.

Right, but that’s just good training and horsemanship.

The real question is what do you do in real life scenarios where you don’t have a choice and the horse is already in an unproductive mindset? Do you open the gate, get the hell out of the way and hope the horse makes it to their stall and not down the lane and out into traffic? Or, do you do what you have to do to ‘break through’ the panic and get the horse into the barn without R+ methods?

I heard a story years ago about a dedicated R + trainer that sat in an arena space for over an hour at night waiting for her horse to choose to exit the arena back to his field. She didn’t want to force him. I don’t recall how it ended.

[scislandsprite]

@sascha

@scislandsprite

I think you can still train if they’re not starting off in the ideal mindset regardless of what quadrant(s) you’re using. If you were planning on having a dressage ride but your horse is not in the right state of mind then it’s likely that you will just work on something that is less stressful for the horse that they are already confident with. The rider can change the ride to focus on lateral movements and serpentines etc instead of doing something that could amp them up like flying changes and extended gaits. Those could be saved for the next day.

Right, but that’s just good training and horsemanship.

The real question is what do you do in real life scenarios where you don’t have a choice and the horse is already in an unproductive mindset? Do you open the gate, get the hell out of the way and hope the horse makes it to their stall and not down the lane and out into traffic? Or, do you do what you have to do to ‘break through’ the panic and get the horse into the barn without R+ methods?

In emergency or urgent situations, of course do whatever is necessary for the wellbeing of both horse and human. As I mentioned earlier, I do not train strictly with R+. Hence why I used I mentioned a training scenario that is common with R- training which is more common since I don’t think R- is bad. With any method of training, I try to keep a horse under threshold since that’s the best mindset for them to be in to learn.

However, as they are flight animals, having them in a calm state of mind is not always a given and I have experienced this countless times. At that point, I would personally do what’s necessary to deescalate the situation within reason. I know that’s vague but each horse probably has something different that helps them calm down and that’s up to the owner to observe and use

[Ajierene]

@sportyspicepony

Sorry but what you’re saying is very wrong about how you would apply R+ to this situation lol I posted an article that explains one way to do this, I encourage you to read that. You are the one who has a grave misunderstanding which is totally ok but I have to tell you that your interpretation is not correct

I looked up that article and they are using more than just R+.

Let’s say you are teaching the horse to walk towards a cone (as someone stated before as a possible objective). You say “walk” and when the horse takes even one step, reward. But you want the horse to traverse the length of the ring towards that cone and that’s ay 30 paces. So, then you without reward (P-) until the next step in conditioning - say two strides and on and on until it will walk 30 to wherever the cone is. This step is P- because you are taking away the reward to decrease the behavior (walking on stride) but then you are moving into R+ when two strides are taken and you give reward.

Then you put a rider on and walk off and say “walk” and the horse walks straight to the cone. Oh but now you want to walk further so you without reward until horse walks PAST cone (P- to R+). And on and on until horse is walking around wherever.

Frome the article:

Then last but not least… you’ll start ONLY rewarding the horse for when you’ve cued the horse with your leg and that’s how you will put the walking forward on cue (aka stimulus control).

So, in the above you are going from P- (withholding reward to cease unwanted behavior of not moving to cue) to R+ (reward to moving from cue).

follow by:

The horse will learn that if they walk forward without a cue, there is no click/reward. However,If they walk forward after the cue, the click/reward will follow… and, we would also teach an alternative cue (such as whoa) to ask the horse to not offer walking forward.

Again, P- (no reward for walking off on your own), followed by R- (leg squeeze/removal of leg when horse moves forward) and finally R+ (reward for moving forward.

From what she said about R-:

We can never be absolutely sure why a horse is responding to a cue if it has R- history, but we can assume that with enough time and consistency and counter conditioning that there will be a point where the cue is no longer an R- cue… but now an R+ cue. That’s the working theory any way, there will be people that disagree with me.

If this individual had a working understanding of operant conditioning, they should know how R- behaviors are created. I looked the person up and she is apparently a “Certified Horse Behaviour Consultant” with the IAABC. Apparently, this is a relatively new area of study but there are several hits for people with masters or doctorates that hold this certification, but not Adele Shaw. Futhermore, a search of the IAABC “find a consultant” website does not yield any results. I am very skeptical of her actual credentials - I am sure she does fine work, I just think her assertions come from a misundertanding of operant conditioning.

In order to only use R+ quadrant, you have to wait until the horse offers the behavior first. Exactly like @Scribbler posted…which is HILARIOUS. Man, my horse would probably find an alternate exit and be off on an adventure…because she’s crafty and loves adventuring.

In other words - training is constantly moving between the quadrants as needed - unlike conditioning, it does not happen in a vacuum.

[scislandsprite]

I definitely agree that a significant amount of training is beyond one quadrant.

However, I am a little confused. With using a leg aid and always pairing it with a clicker, wouldn’t it eventually move into R+ territory since the horse would be moving forward for the reward, not to alleviate the leg aid? Very much a hypothetical situation since that’s not the most common method but would the leg aid be counter conditioned over time with consistent R+?