Has anyone, while out riding, ever run into a pack hunting deer?

[pAin_t_Misbehavin]

Hunting deer with hounds is legal in my area, and very popular. So I bet I will encounter a pack at some point this season, now that my riding horse lives on my farm.

I want to make it a positive experience for all concerned. Because I like hounds, and because I hope one day to hunt Houdini, so I don’t want him to have any hound-related trauma.

I thought I’d probably just turn Houdini to face the hounds and keep still and the pack would go on about their business.

But I don’t know that for sure. Do deer hunters generally train their hounds so they don’t run riot on other kinds of cough large hoofed herbivores? Such as the one upon whom I will be sitting?:eek::winkgrin:

I know this is not the deer Hunting Forum, but I thought I’d probably get more knowledgeable answers by posting this question here rather than in Off Course.

Naturally, I’m not planning to ride where people are hunting. But I will be riding on dirt roads and in fields and woods which are posted “No Hunting.” I expect, given the literacy rate among hounds:winkgrin:, that I’ll encounter a pack at some point between the beginning of September and the end of December.

So I thought I’d ask y’all for any advice or experiences you might care to share.

[secretariat]

No hound experience, but several years ago my wife and I were trail riding in brushy country. Along a ridge, a deer jumped up perfectly underneath my wife’s horses legs (a big, tall ASB); he knew something was wrong, spooking in place but never saw the deer. When he was looking one way the deer ran off the other and a MAJOR wreck was avoided. My horse, on the other hand, saw it and ran off but in a safe direction - no problem getting control.

Deer and horses don’t mix!!

[whicker]

JSwan, your thoughts, please

Since it is legal where you are to hunt deer with hounds, you have some options.

I think I would ask the game warden if he could help you with an introduction to some hound folk that he thinks highly of.

If you are near a fox hunt club, you could call the Master and ask who he/she would suggest. The huntsman usually knows who are the good hound men. In our area, the night hunters, farmer’s packs and the huntsmen all know each other and spend time shooting the breeze. We are part of a much bigger fraternity than we normally think. Jswan knows this aspect well, so she is a good one to pm.

Do the deer hunters ride, drive their 4 wheelers, or sit on the side of a mountain with a jug by their side?

The idea that I am leading up to is to arrange an introduction to a pack of hounds under more controlled circumstances. You will need to ask for an invite, explaining with great curtesy that you want to have your horse understand that the hounds are after someone else, not him. It would be helpful to know what the command is to stop the hounds from running riot, (chasing the wrong quarry, for example, you)

[JSwan]

Deer hunting with hounds. It’s a southern thang, for those of you not fortunate enough to be born in the South. :winkgrin:

It developed in the South due to the need to push deer out of the extremely brushy, dense thickets found in our lowlands and bottoms; pushing them into areas where they can be safely harvested. There is also a historical and cultural aspect of this form of hunting which is pretty interesting for those folks who follow such things.

They aren’t hunted the way stag is hunted overseas. This is more like driving. You can use a man to drive the deer (like a beater for birds), or you can use scent hounds. Some clubs use bird dogs to drive the deer out of lowlands. There is a club near me that uses bird dogs.

When you encounter a pack of hounds working this way, it may or may not be like encountering a pack of working foxhounds (for a mounted club). You may just see an odd Walker Hound or two puttering about following a line. Or you may see a pack in full cry.

You do what you do when you encounter any pet or working dog. You turn your horse to face the hound; and if you’re concerned about your horse kicking a young/curious/stupid hound, you drop your whip behind you (if you have a whip). Don’t be afraid to announce your presence. The hunters aren’t behind the hounds - the hunters are in front of them - the hounds are pushing the deer out of lowlands and towards the hunters.

These hounds are trained to follow a deer line, so they should not be rioting. They are also trained to avoid livestock (including horses). If your state allows a hound training season (I don’t remember so you have to look it up - if you can’t find it let me know and I’ll help), you may encounter a working hound sooner than you’d think. And that hound may be young and more curious - but he won’t be aggressive. They’re kind tempered hounds.

The hound may or may not be wearing a training collar; and he may or may not have a number on his side (field trials). The hound may be wearing a radio transmitter. Some houndsmen feel strongly about the safety of collars and don’t use them.

If deer doggers are poaching - turn the SOB’s in. Your game dept should have a poaching hotline. I know SC had a study on hunting recently - but I don’t remember what the outcome was. Chances are there were changes to regs at least. Hunting regs and laws rival the IRS in their complexity - so if there have been recent changes the hunters may not be aware. Could be innocent or not.

In my state, this method of hunting accounts for about 40% of the annual deer harvest and is only done east of the Blue Ridge (long story but if you’re interested I’ll tell you why there is a deer dog line). Chances are in SC, these folks are doing a good job keeping that deer population down - without them your deer population would be worse than it is.

Anyway - you’ll probably see what appear to be Walkers driving deer. Just sit there and let your horse look, and allow the hounds to pass. Praise your horse if he stands still, then continue on your way.

If you encounter a hunter, let him know which way his dog was running and wish him good luck. (unless he’s poaching; in which case wish him good luck and then turn him in:mad:)

As always, if you’re in the woods during hunting season, you should wear an article of bright (not white) clothing, something neon is good. Just a basic precaution to keep us all safe on public and private land.

Hope that helps.

Oh - if you ride during the rut you better keep your wits about you. Has nothing to do with hunting season and everything to do with stupid bucks OD’ing on deer Viagra.

I’ve seen people taken out by deer. Deer going through store windows. Deer plowing into horses. They’re freakin’ crazy during the rut. A couple of years ago I was at a check - just sitting there in the woods. Guy in front of me was minding his own bidness. Hounds were far away.

All of a sudden this buck jumped out of nowhere - taking the guy out on his horse. WHAM. Guy was on the ground with a broken shoulder. That was the 4th time that had happened to him. Holy Moly. The deer was huge. Gave no warning. Just WHAM, went right into the guy, knocked him off his horse, and kept going. Horse was ok - just spooked.

[retreadeventer]

Good on any hunter legally taking down some pesky deer. (I suffer in my area from them, they are terrible around here.) Thanks for the very informative stuff!

[jawa]

Great description of deer hunting with hounds by JSwan!!

Just one added note, because bird dogs won’t open (speak) on a scent line alot of deer hunters will put small cow bells on them. This lets the “stand” hunters know where the dogs/hounds are moving.

My husband uses our bird dogs to “push” the deer at the end of the season when they tend to move less. He likes using our labs because they move the deer, but not necessarily into the next county, and they tend to not be pushed as fast as a deer hound would move them.

[JSwan]

Good point, jawa. The club near me uses bird dogs for that reason. I don’t think they use bells, though. Most of them are Spaniels (Springer?)

I know some houndsmen use beagles but I don’t recall seeing beagles except for rabbit (gun dogs). (where I live)

I’ve been fortunate enough to see this type of hunting up close and I think it’s terrific. The guys I know donate most of the meat to Hunters for the Hungry.

When it comes to strange dogs around horses - I am far more concerned about someone’s pet pookums than I am a hunting dog.

Your husband should write an article for Garden and Guns magazine. Too cool about your Labs hunting deer.

[fivehorses]

JSwan, thank you for the very informative and educational review of hunting deer with dogs.

Coming from the northeast, I thought prior to reading your post, how horrific and barbaric. But, after reading your post, it made total sense to me…our hunters do the same thing…drive the deer, but on human foot.

Not wanting to get into it, but the way things are done in different parts of the country/world has a base for its reasoning. I had a similar experience with building…my northen builder did a pad one way, the southern guy did it another…and both were upset with each other for not understanding the ‘why’.

Paintmisbehavin…only thing I can add is to emphasize to wear some neon orange or green or something. I also put flagging tape on my horse’s mane and tail if I ride the trails in hunting season.

Now, goodness, off to the one day vaca to the beach…and checked in here and learn something new…love it.

[JSwan]

fivehorses - glad you liked it. I’ll emphasize that driving deer does not result in some sort of mayhem of stampeding deer running amok through the woods.

This is pushing/driving. Deer like to settle and hide in very dense lowlands. They sit there and won’t come out. Hounds do not know where the deer are, and the ethics of Fair Chase are observed. (not cutting off escape routes or engaging in tactics which gives the hound or human an unfair advantage.)

But the goal is to cull and to fill the freezer. It is risky to shoot in very dense brushy areas as visibility is poor - so by pushing deer out of their hiding places it is easier to get a safe shot. A safe shot increases the chances of a humane kill.

Good houndsmen take great pride in their hounds/dogs. As areas become more developed, a houndsman may switch to a breed or breed a type that does not tend to travel as far (like jawa’s husband does with his Labs).

Anyway - enjoy your vacation!!!

[danceronice]

Using dogs on deer sounds not unlike still hunting–if my dad has filled his doe/antlerless permit from his blind (which he usually does in the first hour) he’ll sometimes take his buck tag and just go still-hunt our woods–walk through slowly, stopping sometimes, with the object being to flush the deer from where they’re resting mid-day. (Mom says he really just wants an excuse to go walk in the woods all day. )

[jawa]

My husband still/stand hunts for bow season, black powder season and for the first part of regular firearms season. Around Thanksgiving the club he hunts with starts man drives or dog drives to move the deer.

If you understand deer behavior you will understand why this is necessary. During the early part of deer season, the “rut” is what causes the deer to move, no matter the time of day (this is also the time when they are more likely to get hit by vehicles). Their movement is reproductive driven. As the season moves on they become less likely to move during daylight hours (legal hunting time), only coming out in the evenings to feed. If it gets really cold/snow/sleet, they may even “yard up”. Which is basically bedding down in an area in a large group and not moving until the weather breaks.

My husband belongs to 3 managed clubs. (DMAP) They turn in the jaw and other information (weight, sex, hoof rot, milk in does, pregnant doe, size of antlers etc). This information is studied by the Game and Inland Fisheries biologist. They age the deer and determine the health of the herd and then set a ideal number of deer to be harvested. In the past 10 years the 3 managed areas have been given 30-45 doe tags a season. This is on top of the buck/doe tags you purchase when you get a big game license.

It can be difficult to reach the quota if you are just stand/still hunting. Their are blank days and their are days where you see deer, you just don’t have a good shot. Just because the deer are pushed from cover, does not mean that the hunter is guaranteed a shot or that if he takes a shot he will bag a deer. It is still truly hunting. You make a guess as to where the deer might be hiding, the track they will take when moving, and that you will have the timing and skill to make a humane kill.

We stock our freezer and then send the rest to the local processor to donate to hunters for the hungry.

[fivehorses]

I had to laugh when I saw you stocked your freezer.
My parents in their younger day were quite poor, but my father was a great hunter and fisherman, and my mother a wonderful gardner.
So, as they struggled, with a growing family, they mostly ate what they harvested.
It got to the point, where my mom just could not cook deer in any way to change the taste. Please remember, it was their only source of meat for many years while my dad was in college, grad school, doctorate. Until the day my mom died, you could not mention the word ‘venison’ without her gagging, and my father was not allowed to bring any venison into the house. Sooo, he would butcher it outside and give it to friends who’s wives would give him a venison meal…although I think he too was kind of sick of it, but wouldn’t let on.

That thought just came on when you mentioned stocking the freezer because I remember helping my mom do that and how it would make her sick.

Sorry paint, off tangent to your question…

[pAin_t_Misbehavin]

Thanks all for the replies.

Good to know that deer hounds are trained to leave livestock alone.:yes:

I will say that when I have encountered deer hounds on foot, over the years, they have been very nice gentle animals. Many of them are very shy and run like turkeys if you say “boo.” So I expect JSwan is right that I could use my voice to great effect if necessary.

There is one pack though who sometimes stray onto my farm who will come when I call them.:lol: Shocked the heck out of me the first time they did it. They all walked with me, sterns waving happily, till we got to the road - whereupon their “daddy” showed up with the truck (looking like this:uhoh: :lol:) and they all piled into their boxes and left.

So I suppose if I just stop and face Houdini towards the pack, we’ll be fine.

Come to think of it, jawa, I do hear the hound packs more later in the season. I just never knew why. Rut is early in the fall, I guess?

JSwan, I would love to know why there is a “dog line.” Is it to do with terrain?

Oh, and I’ve got just the thing to wear.:yes: After I complained about inconsiderate drivers nearly clipping my horse with the side mirrors, a friend in London sent me a neon yellow reflective tabard printed with the words “Please pass wide and slow.” I retired it after my sister observed that, while people were slowing down, they were edging even closer trying to figure out what was printed on my back. But since, as the deer hunters always remind me, “'im dawgs cain read” - I can wear it into the fields with no problems!:winkgrin:

[jawa]

The rut season depends on where you live. Here, in central Va, the rut is in early fall. There is a secondary rut in late fall to early winter, but it is not as active a time.

[JSwan]

It may come as a surprise to some folks but deer used to be kinda scarce. There were no gigantic herds of white tails chomping on the roses in suburban gardens.

As I wrote earlier, using dog or man drives to push deer is a Southern thang. It is really efficient; and harvest rates are higher.

Well anyway… in Virginia back in the late 40’s and west of the Blue Ridge, that wasn’t so fabulous. Deer hunting with dogs was outlawed because of low deer populations and overharvest concerns. (Wildlife management was a bit different in those days) Deer were much scarcer west of the mountains, so the notion of a higher harvest was not so popular. Plus, that tradition really didn’t exist there to begin with as its origins was largely in the coastal plains, lowlands and forests. So the citizens and game wardens decided not to permit it out there. Not a heck lot of swampy lowlands out that way anyway so no biggie.

I think the dog line became formalized in the 50’s or 60’s.* corrected - I think the dog line moved to include some eastern counties during that time period. Memory is fuzzy on that point.

Anyway, it’s why you don’t see this method of hunting west of the Blue Ridge in Virginia. Folks hunt with all kinds of dogs and hounds, of course. Just no deer dogs.

The dog line may move a bit here and there depending on what the biologists observe about herd size, harvest rates, and citizen input; but generally the herds are still smaller west of the Blue Ridge.

They’re gonna get a lot of Elk though, so I’d start think about upping insurance coverage on your car, start insuring your fences, crops… then come the wolves because if you’d got a prey species like Elk running around; the only thing that’s gonna eat it is the wolf… remember ladies and germs you read it here first.

But that’s a story for another day.

[danceronice]

In Michigan, scarcity is not a problem and hasn’t been for a long time. Dad can fill his tags usually just from the blind in under an hour, if he decideds to shoot a smaller buck (usually he won’t fill the antlered as fast.)

Elk on the other hand are EXTREMELY rare and limited to a managed herd. You have to enter a lottery for a tag, and if you get a bull permit, you get that guided hunt, and you aren’t eligible for the rest of your life. Antlerless, you have to wait ten years to apply again.

[JSwan]

Heck, where I live the deer are so bad if we want to fill out quota all we have to do is drive to the store to buy a gallon of milk.

Plays havoc with your car insurance premiums, though. :winkgrin:

[EqTrainer]

Please use extreme caution if you encounter a pack of dogs running deer. IME, at least where I live, the dogs are not trained at all, just released a few times a year. They will run right into your horse, your electric fence, or anything else in their way. Mostly they will be hounds and harmless, but a recent trend here is hunting with very large fighting type dogs who will not distinguish between your horse or a deer.

The thing you need to be really aware of is, where is the road that the hunters are sitting on waiting for the deer to come at them. They will line up and shoot into the woods at the deer coming at them. You do not want to be behind those deer. Your safety depends on their level of sportsmanship, integrity and alchohol intake for the day. All dicey issues LOL so please be very very careful. I have nearly been shot on my own land more than once by people hunting deer with dogs, they usually are not locals and have no idea that there is a house and animals just on the other side of what appears to them to be The Great Wilderness. It will be an accident but you’ll be shot none the less

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=EqTrainer;5031061]

You do not want to be behind those deer. [/QUOTE]

Or in front of the hounds, period. Deer hunting with dogs was made illegal in Wake County when a NCSU professor was the first thing to emerge from the woods where hunters were using dogs to hunt deer.

[jawa]

Jswan, read and article the other day about the coyotes and wolves interbreeding up north. (Article in Scientific American or National Geographic, can’t remember). If you remember a short while back a lady out hiking/running alone was attacked and killed by 3 coyotes in Canada. It turns out they were a interbreed coyote/Wolf. Larger than a coyote and not as wary of populated areas.

It will be something to keep an eye on migration whys!! I don’t think I’d want a pack of hounds to chase a coyote/wolf.