Have to Brag - And Question About "Overachievers"

Pardon the proud mom moment, but I have to brag a little about my mare’s awesome mind. She’s 6 rides into a 30-day tune-up (after about 5.5 years of little to no work - long story involving a lease gone bad), and I was very impressed with her progress when I visited her today. Khali is a purebred Arabian, and my goal for her is to show her in some ranch pleasure and western dressage classes this fall and next year before breeding her in 2018 (already have a stallion picked out, too…). Her trainer has been extremely complementary, even though he admitted today that he usually doesn’t like Arabs. :smiley:

Here are some pictures and videos of today’s ride (they’re on Facebook but should be publicly visible:
Photo 1
Photo 2
Photo 3
Trot Video
Canter Video

My question is this: Like a lot of Arabs, Khali is a bit of an overachiever. You can see in these photos and videos that she is ducking behind the bit off and on, not because her trainer is asking for it but because, when he asks for a little give, she responds with, “Oh! I know how to do that! HERE!!”. Ditto for lateral work - if a little is good, a lot must be better, right? She even gets herself a little worried sometimes because she tries so hard to please and then is confused when too much is the wrong answer. My Half Arab gelding was a bit like this, but not to the extent that she is. Have any of you ever had any experience with this type of horse? Any tips for how best to shape that kind of work ethic? She has three more weeks with the trainer before she comes home, but I’d like to be prepared with some tools in my toolbox in the event that this continues to be an issue.

Thanks in advance for your input!

Lovely mare! (I like Arabians.)

But I don’t get your comment about her “over-achieving.” She looks over-bent to me, and bumping off the bit a little, but that’s not surprising only 6 rides in, especially after 5 1/2 years of no work. And I would imagine that is the trainer’s doing, not Khali’s. She is going to need a lot of work and time to get her topline built back up and her muscles back in shape. I don’t see her as “trying too hard” but as trying to figure things out at this point. Less “Oh, I know how to do that! Here!” and maybe more "What was that you said you wanted? Let me try this … " She is giving the trainer what she thinks he is asking for. Good work ethic on her part.

Do you ever ride her yourself? With a trainer? How does she respond when you ride her?

Thanks for the compliment!

The trainer is actually trying to push her forward into the contact. Khali’s favorite word/concept is “whoa” and he has been working (fairly successfully) to teach her that not every movement/breath by the rider means she should slam on the brakes. He has complained to me that when he is asking for connection, she is either overreacting to the rein pressure and ducking behind the contact (as seen here) or slamming on the brakes (which is already getting much better, only a few rides in). He isn’t asking for any kind of “frame” at all - this is just how she goes. When he asks her to move off of the leg, she either shoots sideways several feet or slams on the brakes and tries to back up. None of this comes from her disobeying him, he feels (and I agree), but from her trying a bit too hard to do what she’s being asked. I’m looking for strategies to deal with this mentality. Like I said, this is definitely an Arab “thing”, but my older gelding wasn’t quite as black-and-white in his reactions as Khali, so I’m interested in hearing from others who have dealt with similar horses.

She’s currently about 1.5 hours away from me. I sent her off because my work schedule doesn’t allow me to get home early enough in the winter to have time to ride her before dark. Once she comes home, the days will be longer, and I’ll have time to pick up where he has left off. I just wanted to have someone who is more fit than me dust off the rough edges. :slight_smile:

How much ground work did he give her before riding her? How much longeing? That could help her build back her muscles without having to balance a rider at the same time. After 5 1/2 years I would think start all over as if she were a baby. She probably remembers her previous training mentally but the physical performance is another thing entirely. (Of course, I have no idea what her training was previously. If not dressage, she is having to learn a whole new skill set.)

I’ve been doing ground work/longing with her for almost a year since I got her back after the lease debacle last March. I’ve also ridden her (very) occasionally in the last year, with experiences similar to what the trainer is reporting to me. Her initial training as a 2/3 year old started from a Clinton Anderson base. I think this is where the constant desire to slam on the brakes originated. I have always had problems keeping her forward. As a 3 year old, I had her w/t/c on light contact (in hunt seat tack), jumping 6-8" crossrails, etc. Her lease period is a mystery. I have suspicions, due to some odd ground behaviors she acquired, that someone tried to show her at halter. I don’t believe that she was ridden much, other than the occasional trail ride. My first ride on her after she returned felt remarkably like my last ride before she left, when she only had about 120 days total of under saddle work on her. So she is VERY green, despite her age and physical development. I haven’t decided yet whether that is a good or bad thing!

She is a lovely mare. I wish you success with her!

I also suggest you consider cross-posting this thread to the Dressage forum, since you are considering western dressage with Khali. I think there are some people there who can’t quite get their minds around the idea of “dressage” in the same phrase as “western,” ;), but there are plenty of people there who know a lot about dressage and can make more knowledgeable comments about your question and photos than I can. I know what I know, but I am by no means an “expert.” I have done western dressage as well as “English saddle dressage,” and I remember what I was taught, but you might get more responses in the Dressage forum. Just an idea …

Thanks so much! I started my horse ownership journey in “traditional” dressage, actually, but my HA gelding preferred the hunters, so we spent most of the last 16 years in that venue. Khali is a nice mover but lacks the carrying power and lift associated with traditional dressage, but I think she is correct enough to do very well in Western dressage. We shall see, I guess! I’m going back up to check on her next week; hopefully I will be able to get additional photos/videos at that time that are appropriate for the Dressage board.

Ha! That’s Drew! I know him well! He started my paint many years ago. He is a very nice guy and good trainer :slight_smile: you made a good choice sending her there.

May consider that, if the mare is overworking under that rider, soft and smooth as he looks there, maybe she is trained at a higher level than he can ride, why she is overworking, responding to more than he is able to ride up to.

That will confuse some horses, until they learn the new kind of rider.
That is why some pro horses won’t work for non-pros or lower, or some non-pro horses work for juniors.
It takes a higher level of skills for them to work seamlessly.
Not sure the problem there is the horse, but the horse should learn to respond to the new rider eventually.

Just more to consider there, going for what you are telling us.

Lovely mare. He looks like a nice and kind rider, at least from the videos. Just throwing some things out there, but perhaps she doesn’t like the bit or tack? I wouldn’t call her going behind the bit an overachieving characteristic, but more an evasion - there is something she either doesn’t understand or doesn’t like, is my best guess; or, she was trained in the past with some sort of tie down or mechanical device that “sawed” her head in and so she’s reverting to what she knows…

That’s a nice mare and a nice, sympathetic ride. I do know how to ride this kind of horse, OP.

From what I see of the riding in your post: I’d have the rider ask your mare to raise her head up a bit… no ducking behind the bit because, in part, that lets the horse continue to leave her rib cage low between her shoulder blades if she already wants to go that way. My young HA needed this kind of “forward and out-to-the bit” ride at first. I think ducking behind the bit and being wiggly in the neck is an Arabian thing. And it starts to matter/needs correction when you find that you can’t get this horse to carry herself in an uphill posture because the neck moves so independently of the front part of the rib cage. I hope that makes sense.

The other things I think this kind of horse needs are two things, kind of related.

  1. On the “how to ride it” side: The Arabian needs to be taught to accept the feel of contact in the bridle and, as needed, your leg. So following her head wherever she chooses to put it, but not letting go (and keeping your wrists and elbows soft) in something worth cementing into your horse. With repetition and strengthening, I think these horses can push up into the bridle reliably just as well as any WB.

  2. On the mental side of the same issue, but broadened out to your whole ride. These over-achieving, “if she asks for some, let’s offer her a lot and make a big move” horses need to be taught to wait for directions, not guess at them. So with my wants-to-please-worries-if-he-doesn’t-know-the-right-answer HA gelding, I give him what I’d call a slow and precise ride. That is to say, I ask for his posture to be exactly what I want and I accept nothing less, and I’ll wait until we get that right or correct him as many times as necessary. Same for transitions: We do it right, or we do it again; there is no over-looking some little hop-step up into the trot that I won’t want there in the long run.

If he starts to worry or guess, I think about continuing with my precision (and this is often at slow speeds) until it’s right. I remind myself that I have a very, very long attention span and I can easily not take a break until the horse gets his head back in the game and listens to my directions rather than guessing or worrying. I don’t get mad. I don’t make big moves. I am precise and I stay there. The big deal is that nothing changes and he gets no break/walk on the buckle until the horse takes up the responsibility of listening to my aids. It’s a lot of mental pressure for these guys, even while what you’d ask them to do (say, walk without bulging one way or the other) is physically easy. The mental pressure to “stop guessing and start listening to me” is what you need; it’s the particular skill this kind of horse needs to learn because it’s not obvious to him.

If you ride this busy, clueless-but-means-well mind with the slow, methodical mentality of an old professor who can easily lecture for three hours (regardless of his students’ being bored to tears), you can increase these horses’ ability to wait for direction. Really, it’s riding a horse’s mind in the way you want it to go, just as you’d ride a horse’s body in the way you’d like that to go.

ETA: That last bit is the one idea I might add to this trainer’s way of going about things. He already has “quiet” and “tactful.” But “precision” in what you ask for and the responses you get— which means the horse has to listen and take direction-- takes it up a notch. It’s the notch these horses need and it might not be obvious to a rider who already practices “quiet” as his MO.

The more finished show western horses, especially reiners, you have to keep your leg just right and still and using your energy to keep them going and at what speed to go.

If you forget and let up, if you let your leg get a bit off pushing or even move forward, the horse may stop and even back, which is some of the problems you said she had initially.

To me, it does sound like a horse that is trying now to learn a new way to converse, because what she is used to is not working.
She will get it, she is trained to listen and learn, it will just take a bit to get there with this new situation and if she is ever ridden as she previously was, she will also remember that too and revert to responding to that other way.

Those horses with a great work ethic just never quit trying, they are wonderful to train.

Great input, guys! Mvp, that was an especially helpful post. I do agree that, with patience and consistency, she’ll figure it out. She is currently being ridden in a plain snaffle; I’ve found that many Arabs do well with a French link or other double-jointed bits (they tend to have low palates), so I may try that when she comes home and see if it helps.

I did eventually conquer the rubber neck with my gelding, although he was more likely to evade laterally than longitudinally, which is a bit easier to address as a rider.