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Have You Ever Been Questioned About Why You Want to Cap?

Hunting
#21

Dear XXXX MFH,

I am with XXXX Hunt in XXXX. I am interested in expanding my hunting opportunities by riding with other hunts over new terrain. I have been hunting with XXXX for 0000 years/months and have been riding for 00000 years/months. I would be very interested in capping in with your Hunt on X day/X week*. Would this be possible? I can provide a written letter from my MFH at XXXX.

I do not own my own horse at this time/cannot ship my own horse in [whichever applies]. Does your hunt have horses available for non-members to rent, or have members with horses available for a day lease?

Thank you,

Your Name Here.

There may be some terminology issues as I’m only just getting into this myself, but THAT looks like a polite inquiry that shows you’ve done some research (so far I haven’t run into any Hunt websites that don’t have at least a tentative schedule) and was written by an adult. Your e-mail is too casual, doesn’t seem to include a name (Dear So and So is a lot more polite than Hi, Person Whose Name I Didn’t Bother To Read On the Website), doesn’t say anything about what kind of experience you have, and “expand my horizons” is post-college first-job resume kind of language that means nothing.

I think their reply WAS rude in sniping about whether or not you have a horse–your financial and personal reasons for not having a horse this instant aren’t really their business. For all they know your horse is lame, sick, or just died. However, unless (rather like my current situation) you haven’t been riding a while and need a horse who is…more laid back than some for safety reasons…I would not be asking for a first-flight horse. Just A Horse, full stop. Beggars and borrowers can’t be too choosey.

So yes, they were rude in part, but your e-mail was not the sort that makes the recipient think you’re experienced or serious. I can’t blame them for wanting to see proof from your hunt’s Master.

#22

I have only capped a handful of times.

But I have always understood (since I am not a member of another hunt) that I need to FIRST find a current member of the hunt who can vouch for my, and have him/her ask the SECRETARY for permission for me to cap.

I suppose in some circumstances I would email the Secretary. But not the Master, unless the listing in the COTH hunt roster specifically said to address “requests to cap” to the Master. (It isn’t clear to me who you sent the email to)

The stuff about dedication in the reply was uncalled for, but you had already breached the formal ettiquette.

#23

Thanks for the constructive criticism, Danceronice, and Janet. I will apply these rules when I contact future hunts. (However, the part about knowing a member with another hunt, I can’t understand. Hunts around here can be 200 miles apart, and I’m very unlikely to know anyone.)

#24

Our hunt has a few horses that are available for lease. Our MFH has also been known to check around with some of the members who have made horses available in the past. So it does happen that some hunts have horses available. I don’t think it is that farfetched to ask if there is a horse available.

I, too, would like to know which hunt this is so that i never try to hunt with them.

Such rudeness is uncalled for under anything but the worst of circumstances, and only serves to perpetuate the snobby and elitist image that we foxhunters are trying to disassociate ourselves from.

#25

But since you ARE a member of a hunt, you ask YOUR MASTER to to ask the secretary of the other hunt.

#26

I think, having done 5 minutes of research, I’m going to disagree with JSwan here. The hunt’s response was rude, plain and simple. Wanabe’s email references his home hunt- easy enough for MFH or Secretary to give that hunt a call to verify if desired, if they want to check the legitimacy of the request. Asking a potential guest for a note from his/her Master is pretty silly- this hunt’s web site says they try to make guests welcome, and their hunt roster entry says ‘visitors permitted to hunt’- NOT ‘visitors who are members of other hunts are permitted to hunt with a note from their Master.’ Nor should Wanabe have to ask his MFH to call the other hunt, everybody knows that MFHs are pretty busy already, facilitating capping away for individual members is NOT what they need to take on as an additional task.

While Wanabe’s phrasing in inquiring about a horse to rent is a little awkward- the more typical question is, ‘is there someone you can recommend that hires horses out for hunting?’- but the question is nevertheless a pretty standard one for people (self included) who are hunting away from home and cannot bring their own hunter.

Really- over the years, and still today, when I see a potential hunting opportunity due to travel, I don’t hesitate to call the hunt in the neighborhood and make inquiries as to hunting with them, including the prospects for hiring a horse. While I have referenced where I’ve hunted in the past, I’m a total stranger on the other end of a phone- they don’t HAVE to give me the time of day- but I have yet to have such an inquiry received in a less than friendly and welcoming manner. In fact- on my most recent foray- I was somewhat embarrassed yet honored that the MFH furnished a horse for me at no charge AND refused to accept my capping fee (so instead I slipped some cash onto the clipboard holding the liability releases, for hound feed).

This hunt’s web site offers contact info via email- which Wanabe used- so really, if they aren’t prepared to handle email communications appropriately and/ or have concerns about harassment via email from antis- it’s easy enough to change that to provide phone numbers for whomever they wish to be contacted with requests for hunting. But sheesh- don’t make claims as to how welcoming you are on your web site, and then send a response like THAT!

#27

I completely agree with Beverly. Many foxhunters tend to be more casual than formal and that is NO excuse to be totally rude. I hunt in the midwest and have met many hunters from TX, and generally in this neck of the woods, people are more casual and friendly than they might be in VA or other east coast hunts. That’s how I like it and I agree, I wouldn’t want to hunt there either and it’s a shame that this Master is their contact for people making inquires, because they most likely won’t get any new members that way.

#28

I think I’d tell you yo F— off too !

1.) You did not say you are a member of any hunt.
2.) You are doing them no favour by showing up.
3.) You may not be a suitable person to rent any horse to, let alone a valuable one.
4.) An MFH is not expected to make arrangements for caps.
5.) You have in no way convinced said MFH that he would like to meet you.
6.) One should be invited to hunt with another pack not invite yourself.

#29

The MFH responded as if you had a membership with the East Oil City Hunt, and quite frankly, the email does sort of illicit that response. I think I would have tried a phone call instead of an email. :yes:

#30

We’ll have to agree to disagree, Beverly. The MFH’s response was not diplomatic, that I agree with.

But if I received a request like that I’d be very suspicious and not inclined to open my land and/or barn doors. Kind of reminds me of the people who call private stables and ask to rent the horses - swearing they know how to ride because they rented a horse at the beach.

Having fielded many calls like that - it’s hard to remain polite after the 20th call.

He’s a stranger from out of the area - he’s the one who needs to put his best foot forward. It’s just good manners.

And what is also good manners is obtaining permission from the writer before posting or emailing private correspondence over the Internet.

Call me old-fashioned.

Now I know why some clubs don’t want to create a website.

#31

[QUOTE=xeroxchick;4492123]
Much more like troll.[/QUOTE]
That word is thrown around way too much.

The MFH was rude, surely he’d know of someone with hirelings?

#32

Equibrit- the opening line ‘I’m with xxx hunt’ is an indication of membership! Yes, the potential capper IS doing the hunt a favour- cap fees are an important revenue source, and good grief, we are a ridiculously small minority, we need all the new interest in our sport we can get! If the MFH doesn’t want to field on line inquiries regarding capping, then he/she should not encourage those by providing an email encouraging contact on the hunt’s web site.

JSwan- Wanabe didn’t give any public clue as to the origin of the email, I think the question appropriate in this forum- I asked for the info, got it privately, and don’t intend to share it publicly.

As a former hunt secretary myself, and more recently as Western Challenge organizer- I’ve fielded hundreds of inquiries via mail, phone and email. I don’t find it hard at all to remain polite after the zillionth request- my motivation being love of the sport and wanting to share it with anyone and everyone. Honestly- I don’t find Wanabe’s original email inquiry to be rude, maybe not as eloquent as some requests I’ve seen but all foxhunters are not Pulitzer Prize level writers. As noted above- and while I agree that suspicion of ne’er do wells is generally well placed- our sport needs to bend over backwards to be welcoming.

#33

JSwan–I agree it has to be more professionally written, but my assumption would not be antis, but a kid with bad internet writing habits. I’d probably say “no” or politely suggest they refer their request to the correct person and provide proper proof of identity, and be moderately annoyed.

It was NOT, however, appropriate to include the snark about their dedication to hunting, satisfaction with their current hunt, or whether or not they own their own horse. The original e-mail says nothing about not having a horse, it just implies (in a badly-worded fashion, true) that they will need to rent one. Again, for all they know, his horse was lame, sick, or he doesn’t have access to a trailer. The slam at the other hunt is also uncalled for–so, no one ever wants to ride out as a guest with another hunt unless there’s something wrong with the one where they’re a member? They aren’t interested in meeting other people with the same hobby from a different area?

I have worked in many jobs that require fielding unsolicited requests from the public, including one that frequently required me to bill customers, including first-timers, substantial sums of money. I may have had people about whom I thought things like that paragraph about “dedication”, but I NEVER would have put something like that in a reply. If I had, my boss at that one job in particular would have sacked me and rightly so. When you have a website inviting public inquiry, you’re going to get public inquiries. If you cannot respond in a polite, mature, professional manner, EVEN IF YOU DON’T THINK THE PERSON MERITS SUCH A REPLY, you have no business being the person who responds.

#34

Wow, I guess that I struck hunt staff as rude and uneducated too. I did my best before sending e-mails, I tried to be educated, but I suspect that my initial inquiries would also not have met JSwan’s criteria.

That would have been a pity as after capping a few times, I joined. I am still a complete newbie. I work to learn proper etiquette, but I doubt that I meet your standards. If this is the attitude of many hunts, then no wonder some have trouble attracting new members.

#35

Errr - no.

#36

[QUOTE=IFG;4492884]
Wow, I guess that I struck hunt staff as rude and uneducated too. I did my best before sending e-mails, I tried to be educated, but I suspect that my initial inquiries would also not have met JSwan’s criteria.

That would have been a pity as after capping a few times, I joined. I am still a complete newbie. I work to learn proper etiquette, but I doubt that I meet your standards. If this is the attitude of many hunts, then no wonder some have trouble attracting new members.[/QUOTE]

AMEN. Had I been treated so rudely upon my initial contact to the hunt, I would probably have never hunted. As it is, I have been a member for 12 years, have served as field secretary, field master, and am now a whipper in. Have attended nearly all workdays, kennel days, etc over the years and done many other extra things.
And am now a member of a second hunt and whipper in there too.

One never knows when the first time capper might become a lifelong foxhunter and defender of the sport.

And you never know to whom you are speaking. For all the MFH knows, wanabe’s great aunt just passed on and left him 1000 acres adjacent to their hunt country. Guess he will never know now, will he?

We, and by we I mean all foxhunters, need to make new people feel welcome, not like idiots who have no business in our country club. There are enough threats to our sport today without killing it from within by perpetuating the elitist stereotypes and being just plain rude.
I know that I for one will never considering visiting that hunt.

#37

I’ll admit that I never knew about the Master sending a letter protocol. When I’ve capped with other hunts I’ve called the secretary, identified myself and asked if I could come hunt with them. Most are very welcoming.

We have people quite often call our secretary and ask if they can cap with us. I am pretty certain no letter from a Master has been sent first. I think if we required a letter from another Master we would be missing several of the new members we’ve gained in recent years.

One thing I have said about hunting is that getting started is the hardest part. Its like finding the secret passage way. We should always be very welcoming.

Once a person is out the hunt can assess the new persons abilities and the abilities of their horse. We had that situation last year. The MFH took the person aside and politely talked to them about the short falls of their horse. It was done well, that person is now a member and riding a different horse.

Foxhunting faces issues from all directions. We need to do our best to be encouraging of people coming out to hunt with us.

#38

I can not even slightly understand how anyone could explain away that email back as anything but rude.

So what if the OPs original email was not written the best it could possibly be written. Someone is not doing their hunt any good by sending out emails like that.

#39

[quote=Beverley;4492600]
. Asking a potential guest for a note from his/her Master is pretty silly- this hunt’s web site says they try to make guests welcome, and their hunt roster entry says ‘visitors permitted to hunt’- NOT ‘visitors who are members of other hunts are permitted to hunt with a note from their Master.’

I agree. If a hunt clearly states on their website that they WELCOME newcomers than perhaps they should act in such a manner.
I would be completely put off by the response wannabe received.

Granted, I do agree the request to hunt via email could have been a little more formal but I hardly think a casual inquiry deserves such a snotty response from the MFH.

Nor should Wanabe have to ask his MFH to call the other hunt, everybody knows that MFHs are pretty busy already, facilitating capping away for individual members is NOT what they need to take on as an additional task.

Exactly.

FWIW, I am not currently a member of hunt. There is one local hunt that I have capped with a number of times and I have helped in arranging new hunting fixtures for them. The only reason I am not a member is because I just don’t have the time nor funds at the moment to commit to BEING a member. If I had to bother the MFH of said hunt to get permission to hunt with other area hunts (that state they welcome newcomers) I probably wouldn’t even waste my time with the other hunts.

Incidentally, I recently inquired with a different hunt about coming to cap. I DID contact the MFH of that hunt via email because I had met her at a clinic in the past and was told I was welcome to cap at any time. I received a prompt and friendly repsonse from the MFH via email welcoming myself and a friend to come up and hunt. I receive this hunts weekly fixture invites via email and it always states “newcomers welcome”.
I would not expect to receive a rude response if the hunt makes a point of welcoming newcomers…

This hunt’s web site offers contact info via email- which Wanabe used- so really, if they aren’t prepared to handle email communications appropriately and/ or have concerns about harassment via email from antis- it’s easy enough to change that to provide phone numbers for whomever they wish to be contacted with requests for hunting. But sheesh- don’t make claims as to how welcoming you are on your web site, and then send a response like THAT!

Couldn’t agree more.

#40

Nice try, IFG. But I’m not staff, just a measly former Secretary. I also spend most of my time making sure sportsmen are not legislated and regulated out of existence.

I’m also a landowner - and if people want to continue hunting you best remember that it’s the landowner who permits hunters to traipse on their land and risks damage to crops, property or livestock.

We also risk a lawsuit - no matter how well written the statutes are. We also want some assurance that members and guests are checked out - whether by references or other means.

What I don’t like seeing is members of clubs posting details of private conversations or disagreements on the Internet.

Both people were rude and ignorant - and those are attributes NO landowner wishes to see present in those who hunt on her/his land.

I don’t excuse the MFH for her writing. But I also don’t excuse the OP for his - or his decision to air the grievance publicly when discretion is called for. Do you think landowners and/or the general public want to see that? This landowner doesn’t.

I’d be ticked at the MFH for her response - but I’d ban the OP from my land.

Foxhunting is not elite or snobby. No form of hunting is. People who believe it’s elitist are going to believe that no matter how much we grovel.

My “criteria” is that the President or leader of the club I permit to hunt on my land does their best to ensure I’m not placed at risk or my property damaged.

If that means they exclude people they’re not sure about, or if they require references - that is a GOOD thing from my perspective.

I fully expect the leader to be polite but firm (the MFH’s response doesn’t qualify)- but I do expect the club to screen guests.

I’ve got several groups of sportsmen that hunt on my land and contiguous parcels. If one of them screws up - they know they may lose rights to hunt on all of the land. And I also don’t want to catch wind of any infighting.

I rely on them to err on the side of caution and be very careful who they extend invitations to.

They can do that and be good ambassadors for their sport - and I’d rather this MFH had worded her response differently - but sometimes the answer is still going to be No. In the OP’s case - the answer wasn’t “No”. The MFH informed the OP how they screen their guests. As far as I can tell - if he is properly introduced to the new club they might be more forthcoming with information about club activities and associated businesses - though I don’t blame him for being turned off by the club.

[QUOTE=IFG;4492884]
Wow, I guess that I struck hunt staff as rude and uneducated too. I did my best before sending e-mails, I tried to be educated, but I suspect that my initial inquiries would also not have met JSwan’s criteria.

.[/QUOTE]

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