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Have You Ever Dealt with Horses or Ponies Showing Aggression Toward Children?

Off Course
#43

At the time I am quoting this, this post has 31 likes, and counting more. That is a lot of likes for COTH. Clearly many knowledgeable people endorse this summary of the situation.

So I’m putting it on view again at this point, just to emphasize that IMO @dags has given us a good guide/tip for any parent of any lesson student. Especially parents who have a less broad experience with horses.

I recently had a conversation where we talked about not using terms such as ‘naughty’ with a horse problem. Although the behavior may fit that description in that the horse/pony is not following what it has been trained to do, the reason for the transgression is not ‘naughty’. Because horses don’t have a brainscape for that.

The behavior is reactive to what is going on in the moment. Horses are highly reactive animals – that’s how, in the wild, they have survived as a species in a world of predators.

Emotion-laden terms such as ‘naughty’, ‘aggressive’, even ‘dirty tricks’, can lead the humans away from the most appropriate, best approach to what is, in the end, an instinctively-driven natural behavior in the horse.

Those words do identify what we humans are experiencing in the moment. That’s ok. But we have to remember that this is not the way to diagnose a cause and a remedy.

The behavior is never unique to just one horse. Whatever the horse is doing is something that horses do, in response to certain situations. It is up to us to understand why the horse did it, what was the situation that the horse was reacting to, and why that reaction was prompted from the horse’s instinctive brain.

IMO that level of equine behavioral analysis is too much to ask of a beginning rider in the moment. Or any rider still learning foundational stability on the horse. That is something we can absorb much better after we have some more solid basic skills and less fear that everything that happens could cause a fall.

7 Likes
#44

As has already been repeated, that’s not aggression. That’s a horse (pony) defending itself against bad hands.

This is a very common behavior in riding lesson programs for beginners. Many beginner lesson horses do this as part of virtually every lesson.

The lesson horses aren’t being aggressive. They are just getting relief for their hurting mouth. And trying to stop the bother.

Often if they are ridden on a loose rein, they stop ducking their heads. The head ducking is a classic sign of bad hands. And a history of bad hands, that has created expectations in the horse. Horses do learn from repetition.

Your daughter is over-horsed for her level of riding.

Another situation that is very very very common with well-intentioned parents. (Yes I’m emphasizing “very” three times.)

The pony is better on the line because the instructor is in control, not the learner rider. The instructor is giving the pony the consistent inputs that the pony expects and reacts to well.

This is also very common among lesson horses. It is why the line is used so much for lessons with less-skilled riders – take the control issues out of the equation, so the rider can focus on just their seat and position.

What the parent sees as an existential riding crisis for their child – and they are not wrong about that, considering – is business as usual in a lesson stable. Where it is handled well on a daily basis. (In a good lesson stable it is handled, well.)

My advice is that it is way too early to limit your daughter to learning on just one horse (pony). My advice would be a lesson program with lesson horses and instructors who handle these situations daily.

Not a horse (pony) of her own. That limits her learning scope to just that one. Way too premature for that.

But, that isn’t what many parents want to hear. We envision the future of a happy child rider on a happy pony. Without realizing the amount of time, the vast number of incremental learning steps, that come first. To reach this future goal.

IMO … “Aggression” is a parent deflecting from the real issue of too much, too early, for their child. Blaming a pony that is only reacting to a rider that isn’t ready for what this pony needs. A rider who needs a much more gradual, safe, and predictable learning environment. Just an opinion.

IMO it is much better to more realistically frame what is happening to figure out what will lead to a positive change.

7 Likes
#45

One question that I don’t think has been asked is if the kid likes the pony?

Obviously, the kid loving a pony who is dangerous isn’t sufficient grounds alone to keep said pony. But even if the pony could be corrected with more training, if the child isn’t motivated because of affection for this particular pony, it might be best to move the pony on. Maybe have a conversation with the child to see how the child perceives the situation? (For example, if selling the pony is mentioned, is the child’s reaction, “no, I love the pony, I’m going to try harder,” or one of relief.)

6 Likes
#46

An anecdote from the other side of the table, a horse with his own opinion who was assigned to a job as a lesson mount …

A very long time ago, at a much earlier point in life, I had a small horse that was going beautifully at the 2’6" level. He was such a reliable ride. He won a lot on a small circuit. But, life changes that are normal for younger people were happening for me. I was no longer riding much and was needing to move on from horses for a time.

My trainer and I tried to make a lesson horse out of this amiable, rideable star. But we forgot to ask the horse if he wanted to be a lesson horse. He did not. He would not. He was not having one inexperienced rider after another on his back.

My brilliant small horse, recommissioned as a lesson mount, was awful. He refused to turn where steered by a lesson kid. In fact he pulled hard away in the opposite direction. He ducked his head to take away the reins (never once did that before). He balked and refused to move. Or else he was trotting erratically away to the back of the property with a lesson kid hanging on for dear life. He made every lesson kid cry.

After a few times of this, my exasperated trainer got on him “to see what the problem is with this horse”. With the trainer on board, the horse went beautifully and consistently. As my trainer told me, “there is no problem with the horse, the horse is fantastic, the problem is with the riders”.

Horse was fired from the lesson program for horribleness with lesson kids, which satisfied the horse perfectly. My trainer worked his sales network for a good placement.

Found a providential new home who bought the horse. A nearly-grown small rider who wasn’t greatly experienced, but had a reasonably good riding background to that point. The elusive ‘intermediate rider’ who was a good size for this horse. And had a decent trainer to help.

This was a better, more comfortable and cushy home than the horse would ever have had with me. Horse maybe knew that? Horse apparently decided to make this deal work, because he carried this mistake-prone but otherwise reasonably competent rider through many courses to ribbons and championships. Horse corrected many of her mistakes, as they sometimes will with a good partnership. “I know you meant that I should canter here.” “Bad approach but I will jump this anyway.” Rider came to think that she was much better than she was! But she never had as much success on another horse. Years later her family gave the horse a wonderful retirement at their farm.

About a year after this rider (family, actually) bought the horse, my trainer and I were at a show watching their round. We were both gobsmacked at how well the horse was treating her. The rider steered a crooked approach to an in-and-out, horse jumped, landed, corrected the angle and finished the out, pretty much on his own. The same horse that had made all the lesson kids cry.

Anyway. Expectations must be adjusted to realities, as reality unfolds. Changes can then be made appropriately for a better outcome. :grin:

22 Likes
#47

It’s like buying the best piano, thinking that will turn an early-days piano lesson kid into a good pianist.

There are a thousand incremental steps to learning anything. Especially anything as deep and layered as riding. There is no shortcut. A schoolmaster horse/pony can help, but the rider still has to go through all of the learning steps. It is about the journey more than the destination.

5 Likes
#49

@luvmyhackney - totally agree here, coming from a pony farm and in laws that breed 15+ ponies a year. I currently have 5 ponies and have started and sold many different ponies over the past 20 years. I have never once put anything on them, maybe a standing martingale (which is not very often and even a new coach of mine loved that I’m a minimalist as I don’t usually add any tack unless its needed) and lunge in side reins to get an idea of contact. Almost all of them go in a comfort Myler (some don’t like that mouth piece then they go in a french link or something similar). Not all ponies are tricky or “evil” or need any devices or harsh bits.

Sorry for the derail. Most people have great suggestions on here. I have worked at a few different riding schools with lots of ponies and since I am short, I would ride all the new ones to figure them out before a kid got on them.
I once in a while schooled the ponies, but it really wasn’t needed as they were all very good. They bought their schoolies older, most retired from the A circuit so they were ready for a step down and knew the ropes. If there were any stoppers or ponies with tricks, they were sold on. Kids need confidence and a good pony to get them going. Leasing or selling this one would be the best idea and find something older that is a saint and loves its job. Now we did have a couple of ponies that would go to the middle if they knew they could, but they were for the kids that have been riding for a little bit and knew what to do. It was good for the kids to learn how to steer and keep rein contact. But thats a different story and now what you child needs right now :slight_smile:

3 Likes
#50

Then there was Pete who was retired as show horse who had been around for a long time. He had a built in stop watch. Lessons were to be 30 minutes according to his timepiece. At thirty minutes he stopped no matter were he was. Rider needed to dismount then remount if they were to continue

Overall to me there is a considerable difference in the behavior of the large ponies verses the smaller ponies. Over the years we have had five 14h to 14.1+ “ponies” that all even though officially are ponies their of registration considers them as a Horse. None of these ever exhibited any poor behavior if used as a child’s mount.

1 Like
#51

I get it, I used to be crunchy and think gadgets were the devil. But in this situation it might be a tool to try for a brief period until the pony is less green or whatever and the child is more balanced and not hauling on the mouth.

Most of the time I see rooting it starts when a child pulls back to balance in the posting trot or is trying to pull with the inside rein to steer. Then the pony gets pissed and roots.

It’s really hard to make a judgement call on this situation without seeing a videos. If the child’s hands are really unbalanced well - that will cause rooting and a “connection” issue because no horse or pony likes something irregular on their mouth.

Of that’s the case I would tie the child’s upper arms/elbows with a polo wrap loosly and that will help stabilize the child’s arms. You can also do games like can the child trot balancing a whip in their hands without dropping it.

If that was the case and it was unbalanced hands bad connection then I would use a kinder bit but the 10 ring will help keep the contact even and stabilized and steady for the horse so combined this would improve the connection. It will also improved the steering because the child won’t be able to go like a monkey with their hands- so it would stabilize things and make life happier for the horse through the turns.

This is not forever - it’s a tool to get through a phase until the child’s hands are better and the pony feels better about the contact. Or even in a lesson- the 10 ring is so convenient because you can just unbuckle your reins and ride normal.

How old is the pony? And is it a mare or gelding?

Absolutely there are amazing ponies and riders out there that don’t need this - but some kids on a budget have to make or train their ponies too.

2 Likes
#52

First, OMG the picture upthread if the kid on a draft then kid getting ditched by Pony looks like its a LEADLINE CLASS with adult still holding the line. What a little stinker.

Anyway…So, you bought this Pony, 13.2, 10 years old and a background as a school Pony exhibiting similar behavior with children for your 7 year old on advice of your trainer? Who wants you to continue working with it? And you have used some type “tack” to prevent it like anti grazing reins or an overcheck?

Several thoughts come to mind. 7 is still young to expect to perform a sport independently and likely still just is not strong enough or big enough to wrestle with a 6-700lb Pony trying to drag her forward out of the saddle when she rides off the lead line. She probably can’t sink her weight into her heels because her legs are still too short and she can’t sit back hard or far enough in the saddle to anchor her body so over she goes. Pony knows that. Stronger rider who can anchor themselves against the rooting gets on, Pony knows that too.

IMO and IME, (and I was in a barn that showed Ponies for many years) this is just not the right Pony for this 7 year old right now and it is not doing her confidence and self esteem any good right now either. It is too expensive to continue down this road. There is a difference between being challenged to get better and risking injury on an unsuitable animal beyond her size, strength and skill set.

Another thought. Know very little about the situation, just what was shared and there may be a very good reason why trainer has kid on this Pony and wants the 7 year old to keep wrestling with it. Would love to know what trainer is thinking here. You might want to think on that too….this does not sound like an ideal learning situation.

On the Pony itself did you get a PPE when you bought it? Not to defend the little devil BUT Ponies age and years of work take their toll. Maybe Ponies physically last a little longer then larger equines but they suffer arthritic wear and tear in feet and joints just like horses. Sometimes if its not severe pain, horse/Pony will go better for a stronger rider because they are more respectful (or maybe a bit afraid) of the rider correcting misbehavior then discomfort from the condition or injury.

If this was a horse rooting so hard and pulling your DD ( darling daughter) out of the saddle, you would have many replies about horse trying to lighten the back end to protect a sore back end, needing hock and suspensory imaging to diagnose arthritic changes or suspensory injury. Many are guilty of assuming Ponies don’t suffer these things with lighter riders, lesser workload, lower jumps and such. Wrong. Especially with Ponies in regular work for years as this one sounds like it has.

One other thing you would have been told if this was a horse, check saddle fit. Ponies are notoriously hard to fit saddle wise and no matter how light the rider, it can hurt. Easy check here to start with. Just put your hand flat on the Pony’s back right where the cantle of the saddle sits. Press down. Most will drop down from the pressure of your hand because it hurts because most saddles are too long for Pony backs ( Arabs too).

Somebody in my barn paid high mid 5 figures for a top of the line Medium Pony coming off a successful Green year with an extensive PPE. Maybe 6 months in, it started stopping and running out. Tried everything, no luck. Farrier was trimming it and happened to lean on it right where the back of that saddle sits and Pony dropped to its knees. Problem identified. Not solved, continued to be difficult to fit but at least they knew what was wrong. Sometimes we get so caught up in Pony attitude we neglect other causes.

Back to OPs Pony, there may be something going on behind a vet should look at and maybe the saddle does not fit and hurts and needs changed or creative padding. BUT the evasive behavior of rooting has been ingrained and even if it was pain related, it has become a habit for life, especially with smaller, younger riders.

Lots to think about.

4 Likes
#53

Lots of good stuff in this thread (especially about not forgetting to check teeth and feet and saddle) but I wanted to point this out too. Ponies (and horses) who have learned that yanking the reins out of the rider’s hands gets them what they want (a break, grass, to go stand with friends, the end of the ride) will always have that in their toolbox. And it’s hard for small kids to correct just due to physics!

I’m not against daisy reins. Actually, I quite like them because they take away the back and forth with the rider’s hand so that kiddo can practice on a looser rein and not abuse the mouth. Likely this is why the pony is better on the line as well - ground person is in control and kid can let off the reins a bit.

We aren’t there so who knows what the trainer is thinking in this situation, but I also wouldn’t have bought this pony with a history of shenanigans for a 7 year old who isn’t already confident and scrappy. Maybe it’s lesson horse time, riding the pony only in lunge line lessons (which would be good for kiddo it sounds like!). Or maybe it’s time for a different horse that doesn’t mind glueing itself to the rail and letting kiddo learn.

7 Likes
#54

Another thought … this description makes the pony sound like a calculating evil villain. Who probably spent his time in stall or pasture thinking up this dastardly deed, guaranteed to put his rider at risk of a fall.

“tries to unseat her”, “destabilizing her” … the pony has no idea exactly what happens to the rider, only what his own result will be. Relief from whatever is annoying him, even causing him discomfort. Animals repeat behavior that they perceive as giving positive results – to them.

The pony may not ever know why that relief came about, only that it did, when he behaved a certain way. And he wants that relief again, does the same thing again, and yes he got the relief again.

So that will be a cycle of what is, to us, negative behavior. That is perceived by the pony as positive because it resulted in less pressure and/or less work. That is the only result the pony comprehends.

It is not ‘aggression’. It is simply learned behavior, due to a positive result from a particular behavior (from the point of view of the pony).

Ponies/horses aren’t born knowing these ‘tricks’. Ponies/horses learn the tricks. From us.

Horses/ponies are relentless data-gatherers. If they do something two or three times and it gets a particular result, that is registered in their future behavior.

And this is why it is very easy to inadvertently teach a horse/pony something that we would rather they not know! It is not about ‘why’. It is about what happened before, in the horse’s experience. Behaviors that get a reward will be repeated.

“Rooting” or diving down with their head, thereby jerking the reins away from the rider, may get a big tug on their mouth at first, but then gets a period of relief from the rein pressure … and maybe the pressure on the saddle lets up as well! Maybe the rider stops giving commands as well! Reward reward reward! ‘I’ll do that again!’ is the limit of the pony’s understanding and thought.

We need to assess horse behavior objectively. What is the reward, as perceived by the pony/horse? It will be something very basic and uncomplicated. Stopping work is a big one. Stopping pressure from some source is another.

An example, sometimes a lively horse learns that its rider won’t put the leg on if the horse is constantly acting as if it is speeding up. So the horse goes as if it is always increasing speed, thereby retaining more independence of the rider’s commands. Something most of them can be trained not to do, if managed correctly, as the horse learns that a steady pace is actually less work.

Horses may act in ways that seem emotional to us, but really, to the horse, it is all self-serving, usually lessening pressure / work.

It used to be that horse people used the term “ruin the horse”, which puts the blame squarely on the rider. Haven’t heard “ruining the horse” in a while, though. Meaning that a rider repeatedly making the same mistakes, and the horse learning the mistakes and incorporating it into their habitual behavior, is “ruining” the good manners and rideability of said horse. Making the horse more difficult to ride because of new negative behaviors. Not for nothing, devaluing the horse monetarily and making it harder to sell. Lesson horses can be very subject to this phenomenon. The rider may be the cause, but of course an inexperienced learner is not intentionally ‘ruining the horse’. They are just still learning what to do when a horse does this, or does that. And a learner’s own strength and maturity is a factor as well.

7 Likes
#55

Does anyone have a picture or video of this piece of equipment in action on a horse?

1 Like
#56

My trainer has used grazing reins to prevent the rooting. On some ponies you may need to add a crupper to prevent the saddle from being pulled forward. One of the ponies needs a crupper, one does not. The ponies don’t need it for every child rider.
As far as age my trainer teaches really young children. I think that currently her youngest is a tiny 4.5 year old. She is in a group lesson. Her older sister 7 and has been riding independently. When she got her pony 1.5 years ago he needed a crupper and grazing reins. He is no longer in grazing reins. Being in them a few months broke the habit.
Trainer has 2 pony jocks she can put on ponies that can kick butt occasionally but aren’t adult sized.

1 Like
#57

image
image1200×996 383 KB

Here ya go. This is a random sales ad. The one I use only has one ring, but the idea is the same. Very common in Arab barns, just adds a bit of control to the snaffle.

2 Likes
#58

Interesting, thanks.

#59

How would you compare it to the way a running martingale works? If you’ve used one. Thanks!

#60

I’ve only used a running martingale a couple of times, so not a great person to give an opinion. :slight_smile: I think this is milder than a running martingale - if the horse keeps its head steady there is light pressure, if any, on the horse’s mouth. Of course this is highly dependent on rider’s hands and which ring you are using and what rider is trying to achieve.

That’s the best I’ve got on the topic!

1 Like
#61

With a running martingale there is no effect on the horse’s mouth if they keep their head below the active point. That 10 ring has a more active effect on the horse with any contact.

A running martingale with rings adjusted to the same length (from centre of chest to the ring) as the 10 ring in that picture would be looped loose as the rings slide down the reins towards the bit. The 10 ring is clearly changing the angle of the reins in that picture.

I knew someone who used one on a horse trained to drive when they were training the horse to trail ride. It seems like the 10 ring kept the rein at a consistent angle closer to what the horse knew from being driven.

6 Likes
#62

This is a 7 year old munchkin with a non horsey mom working under a trainer (or “trainer”). She can, maybe, suggest something to the trainer but it may not be appropriate for this rider and not be appreciated by the trainer….who approved this Pony for this child and has already put some kind of tack on Pony to try to stop the rooting, thats a topic for a whole other thread,

3 Likes

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