Have you ever seen an Arabian halter class?

[findeight]

[QUOTE=JLR1;8240371]
First let me say I own and adore an Arabian. I love the breed but feel it is the halter classes that have lead to the negative stereotypes that as a dressage rider I try very hard to dispel.

The handlers are purposely standing too close to each other to try and create a stallion rearing/striking show down. Unfortunately this image of the crazy eyed halter horse is what many people believe all Arabians are like.[/QUOTE]

Um…no they don’t intentionally create fights between stallions in the ring. Every discipline has those with questionable practices, they don’t represent the majority and don’t deserve to be lumped into a blanket judgement about what “they” do.

I’ve seen and heard of some really appalling things in Dressage. I don’t consider its just what “they” all do and post condemning the whole discipline.

[roseymare]

You can point out halter horses who have successful performance offspring and still people tell you it doesn’t happen.

[gaitedincali]

[QUOTE=roseymare;8240899]
On other discussions, I have seen the same people complaining about bagging halter horses who drink the NH koolaid…
Don’t you think if they are bagged at every show and at home they just get used to it. And even if it is just at the shows, they would eventually get used to it. It is just a cue for them to get ready for the class.
Now I do agree that sometimes perception is reality and if it is truly scaring off people then it needs to be toned down as is happening.
Also agree there are bad eggs out there.But they are in every discipline and breed.

People seem to love to hate on conformation horses of all breeds.[/QUOTE]

Yes, the bag is a cue. My half arab (National and Scottsdale Top Ten halter horse, no ginger, no whipping, no shanking, TYVM) knows to put on a show when the bag comes out. Snorting, tail over the back, dancing in place.

Take him out on the trail and he’ll walk calmly past a flapping bag or tarp on the trail. He’s hardly terrified of bags. He’s so “nuts”, that when he came home from Nationals I broke him to ride and he was going down busy urban bridle trails within a couple weeks.

There is abuse in the Arab halter ring. But no more than I saw when I had appy halter horses or Morgans, or with the flat-shod TWH, or when I showed MFT. If there is a prize to be won someone is going to be willing to make a horse suffer for the sake of winning it.

[beowulf]

My only comment was that those are some porky ponies :lol:

[roseymare]

I don’t understand why many people don’t see that there is training involved in halter classes, whether it be Main Ring Arabian, Sport Horse,Stock Horse or others. And just like any other discipline a horse who is switched needs to have some more training for the new discipline. One wouldn’t expect to be able to be able to pop a dressage horse over a few fences out of the blue.
Halter horses can do other things when the are trained for them.
Thanks to those on this thread who have pointed out that these horses are trained.

[rugbygirl]

The Arabian I showed in halter (who would have been much more successful with a better handler, I might add) went on to four years of open circuit shows (pleasure, equitation, that kind of thing) with an Adult Ammy, and started his endurance career this year with a few LD finishes so far he’s doing great, and I am thrilled that his owners keep me a little in the loop, the only reason I sold him was that even at a true 15.3, he was too delicate for me to ride without feeling ridiculous.

His breeder has not only won in the main ring at Scottsdale, but now has three homebreds competing at FEI in Endurance, including one with a Junior, headed to Pan Ams. One of those FEI horses won in MR halter AND WP before he and his owner found their true love in Endurance. One of the others is competing in the Middle East after a very successful career in Canada, a former national team horse.

[JLR1]

[QUOTE=roseymare;8240899]
On other discussions, I have seen the same people complaining about bagging halter horses who drink the NH koolaid…
Don’t you think if they are bagged at every show and at home they just get used to it. And even if it is just at the shows, they would eventually get used to it. It is just a cue for them to get ready for the class.
Now I do agree that sometimes perception is reality and if it is truly scaring off people then it needs to be toned down as is happening.
Also agree there are bad eggs out there.But they are in every discipline and breed.

People seem to love to hate on conformation horses of all breeds.[/QUOTE]

Bagging can hardly be called a training “cue” it’s merely a technique to elicit a fear response. You can’t tell me the yearlings in particular aren’t scared to death by being chased by flapping bags. The same fear technique is used by some saddleseat people who use firecrackers and fire extinguishers to generate motion in their horse. I have no tolerance for using the fear response in any form of animal training.

Bad apples yes there are, but it seems the most successful handlers are often the worst. David Boggs comes to mind…suspended for 5 years by AHA for unethical behavior that involved liposuction on the throat latch of Magnum Psyche. Boggs claims it was not cosmetic but for cribbing.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnum_Psyche

[rugbygirl]

The Boggs Boys in no way represent a majority in the small Arabian world, and most people would be thrilled to not have to associate them with the breed at all.

There are ddefinitely problems in Arabian showing. High, up halter horses are not the root, nor even a real symptom. Most of them do what they like to do out there, and it can absolutely be trained without fear. I don’t like bagging either, but even I had to admit, going into the ring for regionals, the two horses who were exposed weren’t in a panic.

[findeight]

Im sure there are plenty of people with as bad or worse reputations then Boggs in every discipline, horse killing, barn and loaded trailer burning and murder anyone? I’m sure there are some horrible tales to tell in Dressage too.

No reflexion on the practices of everybody else.

You hate bags, some hate rollkeur. To each their own.

One thing to remember, the horse associations are hobby clubs. They are not law enforcement and have little or no authority to really do anything other then fine/suspend. The deadbeats generally get sued or indicted for fraud by private individuals thru the law enforcement and judicial system of various jurisdictions. IIRC Boggs did jail time but the AHA didn’t put him there, people he defrauded did.

[Sunsets]

@rugbygirl;8240864

My Arabian flagged his tail like a deer ALL THE TIME. I was taught by my mentors that they do it when they are alert and happy. What was really cute was when I had my Arab boarded with my young pinto stock horse. About the most mellow, stock horse stereotype you can imagine. When the Arab and him would get to playing, the pinto started to lift his tail too. Which looked REALLY funny. It just didn’t work on him as well, somehow… Lol

Hahaha! Same thing happened when my friend imported her fancy Dutch warmblood gelding. He was pastured next to the Arab Show and started imitating some of their displays of exuberance. The first time her regular vet made a visit to the farm and witnessed the warmbood prancing around tail-flagging and head-snaking she asked “what the heck kind of breed is THAT thing???” :lol:

Said warmblood is now pastured with one of the Arabs, a lovely blood bay Polish/Egyptian mare, and they are besotted with one another. It’s ridiculously cute.

[roseymare]

[QUOTE=JLR1;8241079]
Bagging can hardly be called a training “cue” it’s merely a technique to elicit a fear response. You can’t tell me the yearlings in particular aren’t scared to death by being chased by flapping bags. The same fear technique is used by some saddleseat people who use firecrackers and fire extinguishers to generate motion in their horse. I have no tolerance for using the fear response in any form of animal training.

Bad apples yes there are, but it seems the most successful handlers are often the worst. David Boggs comes to mind…suspended for 5 years by AHA for unethical behavior that involved liposuction on the throat latch of Magnum Psyche. Boggs claims it was not cosmetic but for cribbing.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnum_Psyche[/QUOTE]

Oh good grief horses are flight animals. Anything can elicit a fear response. It is not as if the are tethering them to hungry lions.

Do you not snap lunge whips either?

And horses can very much be trained to snort and puff up and act all fraidy cat.
And a great many of them enjoy it. Any breed.

[red_mares]

[QUOTE=JLR1;8241079]
Bagging can hardly be called a training “cue” it’s merely a technique to elicit a fear response. You can’t tell me the yearlings in particular aren’t scared to death by being chased by flapping bags. The same fear technique is used by some saddleseat people who use firecrackers and fire extinguishers to generate motion in their horse. I have no tolerance for using the fear response in any form of animal training.

Bad apples yes there are, but it seems the most successful handlers are often the worst. David Boggs comes to mind…suspended for 5 years by AHA for unethical behavior that involved liposuction on the throat latch of Magnum Psyche. Boggs claims it was not cosmetic but for cribbing.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnum_Psyche[/QUOTE]

The Boggs boys were sleazy. I’ve heard many tales much worse than that, long before Psyche was born. There are sleazy folks in every discipline. The Jaynes come to mind in the H/J world. They didn’t liposuction throatlatches, they just killed them for the insurance money. Oops, you didn’t want to hear that any other discipline has skeletons.

The bag really is a cue or an attention getter. I’m one of those evil saddleseat people, and I’ve seen it used a thousand times. It gets a horses attention, even the foals. There may be the occasional horse that gets scared, but the majority are not. They meet it with bravery & bluster. A scared colt is not going to show well. He’s not going to strut with his tail up over his back, which is what is desired.

I’m pretty sure that I could write that the grass is green and the sky is blue & you won’t believe that either.

[shakeytails]

It was hard to watch because my computer sucks and the video kept stopping. I’m not crazy about the circle when they come in nor the chain popping as they’re trotting. I’m relatively sure it’s more of an annoyance to the horse than any kind of pain, but it throws off their trot and looks like poor handling. Halter isn’t my thing, but they’re pretty horses.

As for bags- you can choose not to believe it, but it is an “ear up” tool. When they see the bag or baby powder come out, it’s a cue to act like a big bad show horse. They set back, drive off their rear end and power through the “scary” stuff to “atta boy” from their rider and people on the ground. A scared horse doesn’t think straight and doesn’t make a very good show horse.

[PeanutButterPony]

we had ASBs at the horse fair I attended last year. As those horses were readied for the breed parade, they knew the routine and just got taller, and more on their toes, and then taller again, their riders sat quiet and tall on a comfortable rein…and when the trainer made the last passes over them with a rag and a pop on the chest with the flat of his hand, they absolutely blossomed. Let’s do This! Eyes and ears up and forward and let me IN that ring and now.

some horses adore attention and the show ring makes them happy.

[roseymare]

That is why ASB have the Peacock of the Showring nomiker.

[oldernewbie]

A little late to the party, but here goes. I’m going to play the old fart card. I had the misfortune of seeing many an Arabian halter class in the 1980s, the period of really awful horse abuse in the ring. Took a quick scan through this video and I have to tell you that it’s a vast, vast, vast improvement over those days. No welts, no horses buckling over at the knees at the sight of a whip, no terrified quaking and shaking.

I have never been a fan of halter, especially after seeing what was hard to unsee back in the day. But I give 'em credit, it’s come a long way from those days. I can do without the shanking but even what I saw is a huge improvement.

I get that some folks don’t like the dancing around, but just like what you see at the Spanish Riding School is an exaggeration of what the horse does naturally - well, Arabs do like to dance around. As long as someone (speaking of you DB) isn’t beating the crap out of them to get that effect, it’s OK with me.

ETA: I showed my current Arab exactly once at halter at a local show. He was lolling around the make up ring, half asleep. When the time came to go in the ring, all of a sudden he puffed up and charged in, tail up, clearly channeling some ring experience he had gotten before I owned him. That was a surprise! I nearly fell down trying to keep up with him. Since halter was never, ever my strong suit, even when I was at my saddle seat best, I decided to retire while I was ahead!

[newhorsemommy]

I’ve got no issue with the dancing/prancing, etc., or the horses being “up,” or the chains. I think what the OP was disturbed by (as am I) is the horse getting a good smack in the face for no apparent reason. He’s just freakin’ standing there as far as I can tell and the handler smacks him. Did he not look “up” enough?

[JLR1]

Sorry Mares Rosey and Red, like Oldernewbie there are things I have seen, that can’t be unseen. What goes on in the show ring is mild compared to what happens at home or gasp behind the barn at a show. And while Boggs got his hand slapped, he is out there still making money and STILL winning! The top trainers with the top horses are not known for their gentle handling techniques. So while your experiences on whatever circuit you show at may be kinder and gentler, don’t kid yourself that getting to the top at a show like Scottsdale is won that way.

[roseymare]

Well you can pretty much say that for the top in any discipline. Wherever there is money there are shortcuts and often they accomplish the short term goals of winning at the expense of the horse. It is in no way limited to main ring Arabian halter.

[rugbygirl]

[QUOTE=JLR1;8242201]
Sorry Mares Rosey and Red, like Oldernewbie there are things I have seen, that can’t be unseen. What goes on in the show ring is mild compared to what happens at home or gasp behind the barn at a show. And while Boggs got his hand slapped, he is out there still making money and STILL winning! The top trainers with the top horses are not known for their gentle handling techniques. So while your experiences on whatever circuit you show at may be kinder and gentler, don’t kid yourself that getting to the top at a show like Scottsdale is won that way.[/QUOTE]

My trainer won at Scottsdale? If you are privy to this abuse, please do report it. I’m not. I may come from a small region, but the Arab world is VERY small. One of the trainers I know well shows regularly at the big US shows, including Nationals (and wins) and while I seriously disagree with the shoeing practices, I definitely have never seen even a suggestion that he abuses the horses. With another (another popular face at Scottsdale, btw) , I take major issue with his concept of “amateur”… But again, the horses seem perfectly happy and sensible.

There are problems. Beating the crap out of halter horses is NOT the most significant, from what I’ve been exposed to. These trainers you know to be abusing their horses, absolutely, as a person who claims to love the breed, TURN THEM IN TO AHA.