Having a bit of trouble starting a studdy, immature 3 yo gelding under saddle... advice?

[lonewolf]

I’m a hunter/jumper rider who has started probably two dozen youngsters under saddle, but this 3 yo warmblood is giving me a bit of trouble and I’d love any advice you may have on how to better work with him.

Horse was gelded about 3 months ago and tends to be VERY mouthy, high energy and distracted. He’s not necessarily aggressive, but he’s pushy and I feel like he has strong rough play instincts and that’s how he’s trying to interact with people.

He longes and ground drives drives fairly well. He knows voice commands but sometimes gets distracted (stops and stares at mares in the field or whatever) and needs a tickle from the longe whip to get him going again (this sometimes involves a burst of energy on his part). He’s getting MUCH better on the ground about respecting me and my bubble, although I admit he needs frequent reminders. The trouble started since I’ve started getting on him and am not the main one handling him.

Usually after getting on a horse for the first time, I do a couple sessions of getting led around until the horse is comfortable before I start to be longed. This didn’t go well with this guy. He didn’t mind me being on him but he won’t walk in a straight line and just tries to fall into and bite my handler (farm doesn’t have a round pen). Eventually I started using the reins to keep him off the handler which I think confused or frustrated him, because he started planting feet/mini rearing (This was my 3rd time on him).

I got the barn owner to help me at that point. He sent me forward, longing on a circle, which went pretty well and he trotted nicely forward after a couple little leaps. The next two sessions with other handlers also went OK, although we had to immediately let the horse trot a few circles as soon as I got on, right around the mounting block, because he got excited and we want to instill forward. Once those first moments are done he’s always been good and has walked and trotted nicely on longe.

The last two times were less good because he started making one big leap/semi rear as soon as I got on each time. Handler was able to get him going forward and, as usual, he was ok once that happened. This was a less experienced handler who is not very assertive, but she didn’t do anything wrong that I could see.

I know part of my problem is that I don’t have a consistent person handling him on the ground. I have to use whoever is working that day, and it’s not always a person who can really take charge of him. I’d give anything for someone who can just take charge of the horse while I hold mane.

Now the horse has had two weeks off due to wolf teeth removal and I’m secretly dreading getting back on him, (although I won’t let it show.)

My questions are: 1. What kind of exercises or techniques can I use on the ground to make this horse more respectful? I’m usually really good with babies, but my strength is in getting them to relax and trust me, and this guy isn’t so interested in that. I’ve thought about trying to get my handlers (instead of just me) to longe or drive him a bit before I get on.

2. How do I transition that (hopefully newfound) respect to under saddle? Or do I just need to accept that I’ve been spoiled in the past by super sweet babies, and that riding through a couple leaps is just part of the job?

I’m happy for any words of wisdom, advice, or reassurance that I’m not doing an awful job.

[joiedevie99]

Whoever is going to be your ground person should do the in-hand and lunge work that day before you get on. Or you should stay on the ground and put someone else on him. The person on the ground needs to earn his respect in order to keep the person on top safe, until he knows enough about being a riding horse to take all direction from the person on top.

[no.stirrups]

It sounds as though he is overfed. What is he eating?
Obviously you want to confirm the fit of the bit, bridle, saddle, and any other equipment used on him. Discomfort makes it impossible to concentrate.
Last but certainly not least, there are several signs of respect issues. Such as, he shouldn’t get distracted because you as the trainer should be the most important thing in his world, and “falling into and biting his handler” should not even be options on his horizon. So it isn’t just you, he doesn’t respect people in general and that needs to change. Once he does, you shouldn’t even need to be longed or led after 3 rides, since he understands voice commands and driving. I would do away with the extra handler as it is dividing his attention.

[CBoylen]

I almost never have a handler on the ground to help me start. Most people are at best worthless and at worst actually a hindrance. I will say it helps a ton to leave the halter or a rope halter on under the bridle, and carry the rope with your reins in your left hand. Babies are used to being led and used to corrections from a halter. They panic more as you’ve found with correcting with a bridle when the bridle is new and things are going wrong. The halter makes a nice emergency brake and helps reinforce the steer. Add a dressage whip and you can correct all parts from the saddle, no handler needed. There’s about zero people I would trust to lunge me on a youngster.
If you have a nice barn aisle, use it to get your fundamentals down. A lane between paddocks works great too, particularly if it’s gravel.
And if you are having issues right after mounting, lay over and send him off a step about 20 times until he’s bored to tears before you go all the way up. A few leaps is to be expected at some point, leaps in the first few steps is going to turn into a big hole.

[luvmyhackney]

Go find the Warwick Schiller videos (I know I probably spelled his name wrong, spellcheck). His relationship building course is solid gold for this.

[lonewolf]

Interesting. I’ve always started on the longe but I have wondered with this one if I might be better off just going off on my own (but was scared of skipping steps). I don’t have a great space for it but maybe I’ll try. He certainly focuses better on just me.

[moonlitoaksranch]

From the horse’s standpoint he’s most accustomed to you handling him. Then, an unknown person handles him differently when these strange things are happening on his back. His awareness of you as a rider doesn’t seem to be there. His trust in the handler is important with these new experiences and he’s having to rely on strangers to get him through. Working alone seems logical. It would be good to have someone around, for safety reasons, though.

[theresak]

I didn’t have the exact same problems with my young horse, but having a person on the ground to help wasn’t actually that helpful and he found it super distracting. I couldn’t get him to trot under saddle more than 2-3 steps and then he’d start spiraling smaller and smaller and get stuck.

I started leaving the lung equipment in the middle of the arena and when he wouldn’t go forward, I’d get off, pop him on the lunge and send him forward, then get back on. I had to do it several times per ride for about 4 rides and then he figured out going forward and staying close to the arena rail was a lot easier.

[AnastasiaBeaverhousen]

Find a trainer that starts young horses and leave him there for 30 days. Watch the trainer work with your horse.

A good trainer will encourage you to both watch and participate in the training.

Warwick Schiller is great, but having a trainer standing by to watch how you handle your horse is invaluable.

To me , it is no different than having an instructor watch you ride.

Educated eyes on the ground.

[trubandloki]

@AnastasiaBeaverhousen

Find a trainer that starts young horses and leave him there for 30 days.

I got the impression that the OP did this (trains young horses) and was just asking for some new tools for their tool box because this one horse is asking for something different than what usually works out fine.

[Posting_Trot]

I have no idea what your set-up is, or whether this suggestion would work for you, but it could be worthwhile to have another person in the ring on a very quiet horse, just hanging out while you ride your young guy.

Yes, that other horse-rider combo could be a distraction, but it can also be a role-model/calming influence. Your baby isn’t all by himself with some weirdo trying to get on his back, but instead he sees that another horse has learned how to co-exist with the weirdo on his back.

I went to a Mark Rashid clinic several years ago, and he said that he no longer (at least at that time) worked directly with the horses at the clinic; in other words he wouldn’t personally sit on them or handle them. Instead, he sat on his own horse in the round-pen or arena while he worked with the owner who was working with the horse. Rashid thought that the presence of his own, well-trained horse standing there, staying rock-solid was a calming influence on the problematic horse. I don’t know if Rashid still works this way, but I thought it was an interesting point of view.

[AnastasiaBeaverhousen]

True.
But this horse seems to be a bit more of a challenge and having someone with experience can be a great help.

Videos are great but having in person guidance is the best if you can get it.

Believe me, there are somethings that I wish I had asked for help instead of trying to go on my own.

Nothing catastrophic, but my horse and I both would have been better for it.

Didn’t intend to downplay the OPs skills.

[Showbizz]

We ground drive until they are solid. Then they have a relationship with the bit. Then we get on and go. I would rid yourself of the ground person. If he’s solid ground driving, he’s ready to go it alone and learn about your leg.

[Paint_Party]

@CBoylen

I almost never have a handler on the ground to help me start. Most people are at best worthless and at worst actually a hindrance.

Agree with this. Greenies lack focus and when you have someone on the ground handling them it distracts them from whatever you’re trying to communicate from the saddle. It’s also confusing to the young horse. Which human are they supposed to listen to?

Plus I always dreaded the possibility of me, the handler and the horse getting tangled up in a lead rope or longe line. It’s dangerous.

I’d work more on your ground driving. For this horse, it sounds like ground-driving “fairly well” isn’t good enough. I’d really drive him forward the moment he starts to lose focus and screw around. Playing is allowed when he’s loose. Once he’s tacked up it’s work time.

[WildGooseChase]

More than likely he needs far less hard feed, and shorter, but more frequent work sessions.
Ground drive in a side pull or snaffle until he is SOLID. That means, halts quietly, walks and trots off quietly, steers and gives to the bit pressure quietly. I ground drove my filly 5 days a week for about 5 or 6 months before I swung a leg over, 15-30 min sessions, navigating obstacles, different arenas, trails etc. If this gelding is immature in both mind and body, I wouldn’t be progressing to riding. Does he take and work in all his tack okay? Can you lunge/longline/ground drive in a surcingle and saddle? Does he take the bridle well? Does he fuss with the bridle or is he quiet?

[candyappy]

Why are YOU not lunging him before mounting? He sounds like he has a very immature mind still and is also battling the effects of his stallion urges.

I would back off a bit and just walk on the lunge. Doesn’t sound like he is mentally ready for all you are asking of him.

[lonewolf]

He’s very good to cross-tie and tack up. He doesn’t mind the saddle, bridle or a rider’s weight. He struggles more with focus, and part of my challenge is figuring out how much is fair to expect from a three year old full of beans.

Am really appreciating the discussion so far! Consensus seems to be to make sure his ground driving is solid and then to just get on and ride him loose. I had been toying with that option in my head but have never done it that way (I don’t get longed a ton but do at least a couple times until they’re relaxed with a rider). It’s interesting how everyone develops their own little way of starting them.

[Equkelly]

Sometimes I almost like riding them loose without a round pen or a lunge line that first time because it kind of forces me to nail my prerequisites and go slow, whereas if it’s a round pen or I’m on a lunge line, I kind of have a “meh, I can probably sit it out if they have nowhere to go” attitude.

IMO, as long as nobody else is in the arena you don’t necessarily need to have steering that first ride but you do need to have breaks. I’d just go super slow and focus on relaxation which it sounds like you already know how to do. I don’t really even steer the first 2 or 3 rides, I’ll just go with them. I find it makes them less claustrophobic but more relaxed.

[SuzieQNutter]

I have to go to work so I have not read the replies. Sorry.

When breaking in the person who is lunging and ground driving is not the person who hops on to start with. The lunger and ground driver stays on the ground and in control of the horse. The horse moves forward with the voice commands to start with. Aides are added later.

The horse should be worked and going perfectly and quietly before anyone gets on.

Yes you want forward but not at the mounting block, you have taught him to go at the mounting block and the jumping, etc is coming from anticipation. You teach him to stand at the mounting block and to stand after being mounted. Eventually play with stirrups and stuff before walking forward, not going straight into trot and canter.

Think of sport horses at the start of gymkhana events and how they act waiting for go. That is what you have been training him.

[lonewolf]

Thanks Suzie. He does stand at the mounting block. It’s when we ask him to walk away from it that he gets excited. I wish I had someone else who could get on while I longe, but I’m going to take everyone’s suggestions to tweak my approach.