Hi! I’m leasing a mare for the jumpers and she has a problem where she tosses her head and resist the reins in downwards transitions (from canter to trot, trot to walk, halt). They had her in this bit: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Showman-Stainless-Steel-Rope-Nose-Gag-BIt-with-8-Inch-Cheek-Twisted-Broken-Mouth/281465741951?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649, and the rope noseband helped to dispel this, except for at the halt. However this rubbed her nose raw, and I would not like to use such a harsh bit. Additionally, I would like to try some equitation so I cannot use that of course. Right now I have her in a figure 8 bridle and a rubber three-ring elevator with a converter and a running martingale (the bridle, bit, and martingale were all given to me with the horse). She still shakes her head and resists me in down transitions, even though I have a very light hand and am applying minimal rein pressure. I’ve thought of using a lighter bit, or perhaps a regular bridle with a standing martingale. I would love your thoughts!
If I was being jumped in a bit like that I would toss my head as well…barrel racing set up there. Back to basics with a french link or other snaffle, and lots and lots of transitions, from the seat not the head.
What do you use to flat her? Sounds to me like it’s too much bit, so she’s throwing her head to relieve the pressure when you pull to stop. It may sound crazy, but some jumpers will actually stop better when you let go of their face for downward transitions, and sit back and deep. I know one horse that will go faster and faster the tighter you hold the reins, so if you want a hunter round out of him you need to have a looser rein, and stopping is as easy as letting go. Definitely try working on using your body for downward transitions on the flat, and try and decide if you can trust her enough to stop if you loosen the reins after a jump. Once she begins to associate loose reins=you’re done, she’ll start coming back to you easier without having to pull as hard. I would also try her in a regular bridle, some horses really don’t need the figure 8, and it puts too much pressure on them so they resist. Hope it works out!
The “barrel racing” bit was actually what stopped her from head tossing. And thanks for the advice, I am incorporating lots of transitions into our flatwork.
Thanks for the advice! I’m going to try her in the rubber elevator with a regular bridle today to see if she prefers that and if she’s still having the same issue I may try her in a rubber full cheek snaffle to see if she likes that.
How are you coming up with what bits to try? Bitting inst just throwing something on willy nilly. You have to examine the mouth, see what fits her exact lips, tongue, bars etc. Read this before you just start throwing things on her: https://dressagetoday.com/lifestyle/find-the-bit-that-fits-32028
This is a training/riding issue, not a bit issue. The horse is not in front of the leg. Back to some basics of working inside leg to outside rein. Do you have a coach who knows how to work a horse to a proper connection? Start there.
Perhaps she was ridden more off the seat, than perhaps you are doing. In your transitions, try just using your seat. Or at the least delaying the use of the hand.
Try it without the converters. Ride with 2 reins, so the curb is only used when you need it.
Also rubber is not always pleasant to the horse, if it’s too drying or fat for their mouth.
There was another thread here not too long ago, I think it’s titled “[solved]”, where NancyM has a good post about (gag)bits.
When you find a suitable bit that fits, and is mild enough to encourage her to reach for contact, and strong enough that she can’t run through it (or that you can through to her when she tries), maybe keep the same one for a while so you can re-train the horse because this is very unlikely to be fixed with just a bit change. I agree with posters suggesting it’s that she has not been trained to stay in front of the leg or go forward properly, and to ask for downward transitions with your leg and seat, rather than hands.
And because it will get brought up: check her teeth also.
Definitely check her teeth! Otherwise, you’ve been given some good suggestions.
The elevator bit came with her and the bit with the rope nose piece was recommended by her owner. I’m not just throwing something on haha! And yes I am working with a trainer and working on that, it is just that it is only a three month lease so we do not have the time to completely retrain her, we just want to work with what we have, while obviously working on improving her a bit.
why don’t you have time? Whats the plan? Showing? Whats more important? A happy healthy horse with proper training or a short cut to the show ring…
Since you only have her for a short time and want to show, maybe paying for extra training rides would help. Your trainer should also know what bit(s) to use/try and why. It won’t fix the problem completely, but if trainer can get the mare forward and balanced, that will help with the downward transitions. You would need to learn what it feels like when she is going properly and then how to maintain that. Nothing which be solved overnight.
For better or worse, it’s very common for trainers to set up clients’ horses. I’m not sure why they would advise you to lease a horse with this issue, though, if you want to step right into the show ring or go in the equitation. But you can focus on improvement and give the mare back with better/more training than when you got her.
I don’t think training at shows is necessarily contradictory either, if you’re realistic about your showing goals. Sometimes this means training in the ring, rather than riding to win, and accepting that mistakes will happen. She WILL get strung out and toss her head, even with training rides and a new bit, until she learns to carry herself better and through downward transitions. It’s going to happen in the show ring, in the jumpers and in the equitation. But you can still practice what you learn at home in the show ring, and further her (and your) training with every ride. Make every transition count, including your very last canter-walk transition out of the ring.
I showed on horses that were a little bit green, when I had a lot of bad riding habits too. There were a lot of times when I lost the canter or had to do a simple change or missed to a jump because we weren’t straight, etc, etc… We improved because we looked at the shows as part of training, rather than showing itself (or the ribbons) being the end goal.
ETA: Some people will say this is a costly way to train and show, and I would totally agree with them! This is why I say be realistic about your showing goals. If you’re one that wants to be competitive/win right away, I would say this horse is not for you – you may be better off returning her early or not showing while you have her, saving that money and leasing another horse that is more broke to the leg and suitable for showing right away.
I’m working on eliminating head tossing from my mare as well. She’s a very forward, sensitive TB jumper that goes in a 3-ring, plain snaffle single-jointed elevator. A couple of things that have helped me:
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When changing directions, stagger your aids. Tip her nose in the direction you want to go, THEN move your outside leg back as you’re putting your inside leg on to move her shoulders, THEN change your diagonal (at the trot). Do the same at the canter – too many aids all at once is too much information for my sensitive mare to process all at once. Similar method can be applied to down transitioning – you want prompt transitions but without resistance, so break it down into smaller pieces.
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When down-transitioning, I used to encourage the long & low stretch: sit up, sink into the saddle, put a little inside leg on, and let the reins slide out of my fingers and encourage her to stretch down. Now, I don’t always ask for the stretch down, but I’ll do everything except let the reins slide and instead close my fingers – don’t pull – and just hold. The sitting up and exhaling as you sink into the saddle tells the horse to take a breath and relax with you. As soon as she halts or walks or whatever, I drop the reins completely to the buckle.
Of course we want her to be happy and healthy I’m just being realistic about being able to “fix her” in three months. Since the head tossing is only in downwards transitions, it doesn’t really effect how we do in a jumper’s course.
The head tossing doesn’t effect her performance in the jumpers, as she only does it in downwards transitions, so I can still course in and show her in jumpers fine. I agree with you though, I thinking of showing as a training experience as well as competition!
Thanks so much I’ll try that with the downwards transitions. Luckily she doesn’t toss her head when changing directions but that is good advice as well.
You can probably find a combination of bit, noseband, and martingale that will punish the horse for head tossing, so they stop. but by itself, it will not fix the underlying issue, as you found out with this bit, because when you don’t use it, she reverts back to head tossing.
I like @GrayTBJumper’s suggestions. If you keep at it, it is possible to teach a horse to do a downward transition by only breathing like that and sinking into the tack and just thinking “walk” or “halt”. Whether you can get that in under 3 months, I don’t know.
But because not all horses are the same, sometimes that doesn’t work. For a horse that tosses his head because he gets out of balance and doesn’t continue to step under during a downward transition, making them go forward again right away can teach them how to do a proper transition. It sounds backwards, but they need to go forward in order to slow down properly. And you need to be able to do this without rushing or lighting them up. They learn that stepping forward into the downward transition and maintaining contact is easier than hollowing out and head-tossing. Your hands also have to be steady, following the mouth, and empathetic.
When they do a correct transition, immediately praise, rub their neck, loosen the reins, tell them they’re good. I would not try both these methods at the same time, because that will only confuse the horse.
Actually, if you’re going to show regardless, and mare is safe enough to jump around, it might be easier on her not to change her tack from the 3-ring or try too hard to retrain her. If she’s older and she’s gone like this forever, sometimes it’s ok to let them have a training hole, depending on what it is and what you want to do. And if you don’t want to move up to anything that would make this training hole a bigger issue or difficult to ride around.
Retraining can be hard on them, particularly if you want it to happen in a short time. I’m not saying this is ideal/correct or that you shouldn’t encourage less/no head-tossing, but if she’s going successfully with previous riders this way and comfortable the height/track she’s jumping… it’s mayyybe not that big of a deal – I mean, the horse is going back in 3 months. However, it will not improve your abilities as a rider to ignore the training hole. And I would look out for these kinds of issues in your next horse(s), as that might tell you something about your training program.
Thanks everyone for your help. I actually tried her in a rubber full cheek snaffle and the head tossing was more or less resolved. I’ve only jumped her around 3’ with it and she was great, may use the elevator bit if we need it for the bigger heights, but for now she’s super happy in the full cheek! Thanks all!
I’m glad you found a better bit. I would be very unhappy too in that first get up. Curious, on the lunge, what does she do?
I’m guessing that in the downwards transition u/s she’s expecting or experiencing some pain. I would check saddle fit, too. Her back IS going to be sore (just from the experience that you’re describing) just asses the level of sorness. She may need some time off and or/ robaxin doses for a few days and then light work (walk to halt), and possibly some hills if you have access to them, get her to stretch everything out.
