Headset advice wanted

[buckskin1]

Hello,

![]('d love some opinions on a few issues.

First of all, I’m working with mare and I’m running into to quite a few problems. She’s has so much energy, she’s fine at the walk and mostly fine at the jog, but get her into a canter and all she wants to do is run. She sticks her head in the air, but will even give to pressure she just keeps that head relatively high.

I’ve been training her in a snaffle and working a lot on flexing and also vertical flexion as she was resistant. She’s coming along, she’s soft in her mouth, at least more than she was.

Now, excuse me jumping around from topic to topic, but I’ve been following Clinton Anderson headset DVD, Clinton’s methods have work very well with my other horse so I wanted to try his headset advice with my mare and he basically just says to flex, flex and keep flexing and then move on to vertical flexion without disregarding lateral flexion. He says then the horse will begin to soften and most all of the time their heads are lower.

Anyway that’s what I have been doing with my mare, and I’m just not seeing progress, she still will give to the pressure I put on the bit but her head is always carried really high especially at the trot. I’m kind of at my wits end with her. Does anyone have experience dealing with an insanely fast horse with lots of energy, and getting them calmer and lower in their headcarriage without using artificial methods? Now that being said, I would like to know other opinions on artificial methods like draw reins and surcingle’s? I love this horse and would love to show her in ranch or some English, but she’s way to high in the head for anything English. Also, I know this isn’t a substitute for advice from a professional, but there are no trainers in my new area and I am currently doing the best I can with DVD’s and such. I’ll try to attatch a picture of her head at a trot , this was when I was back using the Kimberwick.

[IMG]http://i67.tinypic.com/jkcc29.jpg)

[dog_amp_horsemom]

I use Clinton’s method and alot of flexing and then holding until she gives and then you give should do the trick - but - for one short necked quarter horse I did also use draw reins - not to get him into a headset but to maintain the headset that I got by pushing him into the bit. for curing that same horses desire to run at a gallop - I asked for a canter - cantered one circle - stop - back up 3-5 steps - ask for canter other direction - repeat same steps about a million times and then he had the nicest canter! good luck

[Palm_Beach]

Love her! Send her to me!!!

I’m not a “Method” person, but if she is too fast, you use a 1 rein stop, flex in both directions. Then go again, and if she starts to pick up speed, 1 rein stop.

Be very very clear and deliberate with your cues, and slow them way down. That gives her a chance to acknowledge what you are doing and react. Your cues need to be exactly the same every time.

[Rackonteur]

I don’t see anything wrong with her head carriage. It certainly is not what I was expecting to see when you said “really high.” The pic took ages to load before and now I can’t get it to load at all, but to me your mare looks happy. She doesn’t look like she’s trying to bump off the bit, resisting. She’s not poking her nose.

I come partly from a gaited/saddle-seat background and this is what I call high head carriage. : )
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddle_seat#/media/File:Equitation_Class_(2797696553).jpg

Correct head carriage is not acquired by using a certain bit (though it can be lost with use of the wrong bit), but by having your horse being through and forward, propulsion coming from behind, and how you ride this, keeping her balanced and through and between your seat and legs and hands. Work on this, and as she develops self-carriage, her neck and head position will improved naturally.

After all, you don’t want this, which is just as inappropriate but at the opposite extreme (the grey)! Scroll down for the bay, who looks much better.
http://braymere.blogspot.com/2010/07/hunter-under-saddle-quarter-horse-style.html

And since you are doing hunt seat, I think this looks good to aim for (the grey in the first “baby green” pic) – http://www.horsechannel.com/english-horse-training/baby-green-blues.aspx

ETA: I hate the word “headset” as do many other dressage riders. It sounds artificial. Horses acquire balanced head carriage through schooling and learning self carriage. It has to come forward through the spine, and that comes with propulsion and being through and in balance with the rider.

[TheHunterKid90]

When you talk about your horse carrying her head high - a horse can’t be “high headed” if their back is lifted.
I do a lot of backing, steady pressure on the face and bumping their bellies to make them step better and lift their back. Also, a lot of steering in and knocking them off their feet into the circle to maintain speed control when they want to get fast and to align and bring their shoulder underneath themselves.

With that being said, once my horses back is up, I let them determine how “low headed” they want to go. Every horse is built different. For some horses the correct way of going for them isn’t as low as others. Some literally hang their heads on the ground when their back is up. I don’t think draw reins help in most circumstances aside from making your horse lean on your hand and learn to cram his face while going in an artificial frame with their back still hollow.

[BigMama1]

Maybe it’s high for a Western horse but as an English only rider, your horse’s head carriage looks pretty normal given the conformation and not high at all. I would focus more on the hind end than the neck / head, and work on shifting the weight off the forehand, using the back and getting more relaxation. Transitions, transitions, transitions as well as circles, leg yield, shoulder in, etc. will help with all of these, plus the tendancy to run.

[aktill]

Stop hollowing your own back and she’ll follow. You’re basically both doing the same thing in that photo.

[Dee-Vee]

[QUOTE=aktill;8732207]
Stop hollowing your own back and she’ll follow. You’re basically both doing the same thing in that photo.[/QUOTE]

Agree. She is hollow and needs to work over her back. That should help with the headset as part of carriage.

Lovely, lovely horse BTW.

[Plumcreek]

Yup to several comments above. Here is what I see:

1. Mare looks to be built higher in the croup than the withers, maybe not, but you will have to work a bit harder than one built uphill.

2. Take a look at your photo and draw a vertical line up from your heel. It is in front of your hip bone, and should be even or behind your hip bone if you want to affect her hind legs stepping further under. Fix: Stand in your stirrups, weight down in your heels, than sit straight down in the front of your saddle by sliding your knees directly toward the ground and letting your lower leg swing back. Then bring your lower leg forward until the tip of your boot lines up with the front of your knee when you look down , do not raise your knee. You will be unable to raise you heel or bring it too far foward without your knee raising on the flap. Tuck your butt (your back is a bit hollow as others have noted). This is your new basic position, and if you see more of your toe, ever, (unless stopping hard) reset your position as above. You need the calf of your leg (not heel - that is for increased speed) on her rear barrel to ask her to step under.

3. You are currently trying to lower her head with your hands - Nope. Head can only stay lower and horse be light on their feet if the wither is elevated (why rear legs need to reach under). Do this: Get down on your hands and knees on the carpet, then lower your head - feel how this pulls on your shoulders and back - could you carry weight on your back? . Now bring your knees forward so your butt is lower and your shoulders are a bit higher, then lower your head again - it is easier to hold this position and you could carry weight and move off easily with your hands as front feet. So this is what you need to accomplish with your mare.

4. The DVD Guru lateral flexing will accomplish lightness in front, but I like the direct approach using a short curb like a Tom Thumb or a Kimberwicke with two reins. Do it at a walk or very slow jog. Move the mare into a medium walk or slow jog, get a bit of a nose tuck (just a bit) and, using the curb rein, raise your hand SLOWLY straight up a foot or more, asking the mare to raise her neck to follow WITHOUT losing the nose tuck - be satisfied with what the mare will do, do not fight with her. Keep your legs wrapped around her sides well behind your normal position to ask the rear end to step further, and use an alternate leg bump when that foot is in the air. NO SPURS. To raise her front end, she will have to step further under, and if you have any feel at all, you can tell when her withers and front end elevate. At that point she will want to lower her head (feels different than just fighting your hand as it comes from the base of her neck), so immediately let her and return your hands to a normal position, not low, and switch to the snaffle rein. It may take a week or to for her to get to the front end elevation point where she will need to lower her head - be patient. This is the arch principal - when their front end/withers are elevated and their rears are lowered, their necks are more comfortable dropping from the withers to match their rear and form an arch - the strongest form for balancing and carrying weight and most comfortable for her back. Nose can be out a bit, as it is lowering their neck while being up in their front end you want. Draw reins pull in the head downward and only help them elevate when trainers do tons of shoulder yielding and side passing (which is hard to do correctly) or create so much pain on their sides with spurs that they suck up to get away from the spur pain. Then you have a wringing tail problem.

5. She will probably stay in this new frame for only a few strides, then revert, at which point you do it all over again and again and again, until she gains strength and understanding to hold it longer each time and eventually with just a slight raise of your hand and sliding your legs back. Pushing forward with your seat to sit far to the front of the saddle so your legs can be back and active is key, as is not leaning forward. Where your hips and legs are in your photo defeats this process.

6. Visualize sucking her withers up and back into your lap - this helped me. Also visualize always riding the rear end - the front end WILL get out of the way. This is the classic riding back to front.

7. When she can hold this at a jog, ask her to elevate in front and do a few strides of canter, then back to a jog to fix it when she falls apart.

8. Give this at least 3 months to build her rear end strength and get somewhat consistent. Remember, if her withers are not elevated, and she is pulling on your hands or rushing, she is heavy in front, not balanced and you need to fix it. When they are light in front, you can put their neck and nose angle anywhere you want and they can hold it.

Good luck.

[Pocket_Pony]

And here I thought this was a question about what head set to use during lessons so you could hear your instructor…

[Fillabeana]

Bluetooth from your phone works pretty well, especially if you have unlimited minutes.

Otherwise, make sure that what you are listening to is helpful.

If you are looking for a light, collected and athletic horse, the likes of Dr. Deb Bennett and Buck Brannaman are great resources.

Can’t say that I would recommend Clinton Anderson, a broken mouth bit with leverage, a kimberwicke, draw reins or side reins.

But different strokes for different folks, I guess.

[Pocket_Pony]

Your horse is very cute!

I was thinking more about your question and here’s my two cents, fwiw.

So many people get so caught up on “head set,” which depending on the horse’s conformation and its intended use, can range from naturally looking like it is on the bit to looking like an aberration of God’s beautiful creation that can only be created with equipment created for such a reason.

Let’s start with the idea that you just want to ride your horse and have fun and enjoy the process of training her.

Since you posted a picture of you and your horse, and you are the rider and the one who wants to affect a change in your horse, I will offer a few suggestions on what I see.

You look very stiff in the saddle to me. Your back is unnaturally arched (stiff), and your hands are low without a soft and relaxed bend in the elbow (again, stiff). And you want your horse to relax. So, first, you relax - which, I know, is easier said than done.

Maybe start with some breathing exercises, focusing on inhaling and exhaling - see if you can make your exhale twice as long as your inhale. When you are tense in your breath, it affects the rest of your body and especially your head/neck/shoulders (which are connected to your elbows and wrists). Do this while grooming and tacking up your horse and see how she reacts. Slow down your breath, and what does hers do?

Perhaps in this picture you were trying to pose to look good for the camera, but forget all that. Your back is hollow. A stiff and hollow back cannot move with the horse. At the walk what do your hips do? Do you move with the horse? Can you relax that lower back and let it swing with the movement of her underneath you? Is she steady enough that you feel comfortable letting your feet out of the stirrups and letting your legs be like jello? What happens underneath you when you relax your back?

Regarding your arms & hands - you need to bend your elbows and lift your hands. Pulling down on the horse’s mouth does not encourage the horse to lift at the withers, nor does it encourage the horse to drop its head. What do you do when you ask the horse for flexions? Where are your hands - both your asking hand and your other hand? Let’s say you want to create a right flexion. What do your hands do? (You don’t have to say, but next time you are riding, think about it.) What happens if you lift at the corner of your horse’s mouth? Don’t think “pull back,” think “lift” straight up with the rein (and only one rein) gently until you get a change in your horse. Then release. What happened? How did it feel? How did your horse respond?

Getting good work at the canter starts with good work at the walk and then progresses to the trot. And once you get good work at the trot, getting it at the canter will be easier because you’ve built the foundation of what your aids mean. Getting good work at the walk starts before you even get on. You can do flexion exercises in-hand to get the feel for it before you put your butt in the saddle.

So, the canter isn’t just about the canter - it is about all the other work you’ve done before hand. If it doesn’t work well for you at the walk and trot, it certainly won’t work well for you at the canter.

There are way too many nuances to it to be able to write about it in a single post, but get yourself the 7 Clinics DVDs and see if you can go audit a clinic where Buck Brannaman or Bryan Neubert or Harry Whitney or Jonathan Fields or some other good horsemanship trainer is teaching (not a showman like CA or PP).

[Plumcreek]

OP, watch this video of two of the best dressage riders in the world give a clinic (in Dutch, unfortunately). Their goal is to achieve ultimate lightness in their horses, so watch their body positions, where their heels line up with their hips, where their lower leg is when they are asking the horse to step further under behind for changes or more collection, and how their seats are always tucked to be effective. If these guys were riding a western breed horse, they would still use the same methods to get the horses to canter slowly and softly, with head and neck placed wherever they wanted. Also, they could adjust their seat and back a bit and be equitation stars. Effective riding is the same, from reiners to dressage horses.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGgil9VHmCU

[Foxglove]

Wow -lots of good advice here. I have personally worked extensively with two horses on head sets --my horse looked much like yours at the onset. The second started with a lower head set --one factor you may have thought about is basic confirmation --how the neck comes off the shoulder. My horse a ND Ranch bred QH has a head that comes off his shoulder much like your horse. Further, he’s short coupled. Although he’s a great cutter and reiner, (and fox hunter) the “head set” one sees in Western Pleasure (and now some reining classes) is a challenge for him. He WILL do it -but as one poster pointed out, it’s difficult for a horse like him to maintain it for a long time. Even in the pasture, he’s got a higher head carriage than the second horse. The other horse I’ve worked with (for about 5 years) began with a neck that came off his shoulder lower. Unridden, in the pasture, he walks with his head lower, almost with a straight topline ears to withers. His neck and body are longer than the higher-headed horse.

First pix is my horse that has a “naturally” higher head carriage that we work on but will probably never achieve 100% of the time. Notice the set of the neck to the shoulder:

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff31/foxgloveweeks/P9210018_zps39af4944.jpg

This pix is of the other horse, same age, who has a naturally lower head set that was easy to encourage.

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff31/foxgloveweeks/P6150061_zpsb388bd67.jpg

So my point is (rambling) if you want huge success with a lower head set, start with a horse that’s built for it naturally. I accept that my short-necked fellow isn’t going to win any WP classes (not that we show in them), but delight in his ability as a reiner.

Foxglove

[Foxglove]

Wow -lots of good advice here. I have personally worked extensively with two horses on head sets --my horse looked much like yours at the onset. The second started with a lower head set --one factor you may have thought about is basic confirmation --how the neck comes off the shoulder. My horse a ND Ranch bred QH has a head that comes off his shoulder much like your horse. Further, he’s short coupled. Although he’s a great cutter and reiner, (and fox hunter) the “head set” one sees in Western Pleasure (and now some reining classes) is a challenge for him. He WILL do it -but as one poster pointed out, it’s difficult for a horse like him to maintain it for a long time. Even in the pasture, he’s got a higher head carriage than the second horse. The other horse I’ve worked with (for about 5 years) began with a neck that came off his shoulder lower. Unridden, in the pasture, he walks with his head lower, almost with a straight topline ears to withers. His neck and body are longer than the higher-headed horse.

First pix is my horse that has a “naturally” higher head carriage that we work on but will probably never achieve 100% of the time. Notice the set of the neck to the shoulder:

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff31/foxgloveweeks/P9210018_zps39af4944.jpg

This pix is of the other horse, same age, who has a naturally lower head set that was easy to encourage.

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff31/foxgloveweeks/P6150061_zpsb388bd67.jpg

So my point is (rambling) if you want huge success with a lower head set, start with a horse that’s built for it naturally. I accept that my short-necked fellow isn’t going to win any WP classes (not that we show in them), but delight in his ability as a reiner.

Foxglove

[TheHunterKid90]

Here’s three examples of 3 year old reiners I have in training

1. really good shoulders, has an uphill way of going and tends to rise above her wither naturally. But not in a curled fashion - her poll is the highest point.
   https://scontent.fphl2-2.fna.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/fr/cp0/e15/q65/13131742_10156954666930694_4490128156968110052_o.jpg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9

2. this filly is built more down hill and has a tendency to go a little strung out. More of a typical quarter horse. She needs tons of work aligning her shoulders and driving from behind.
   https://scontent.fphl2-2.fna.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/fr/cp0/e15/q65/13131742_10156954666930694_4490128156968110052_o.jpg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9

3. this filly is fairly good shouldered but literally cannot pick her head up off the ground. when her back is rounded, that is how she goes naturally.
   https://scontent.fphl2-2.fna.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/fr/cp0/e15/q65/1276341_10156693407950694_5506675223398875577_o.jpg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9

So most of what we “fight” is how a horse is built. I say you get them to lift their back and push from behind and where their head falls it falls.

Remember, if I chopped your horses head and neck off and let it lay in the middle of the arena you could still ride his body - but you can’t ride a head and neck!!

[Rackonteur]

Thanks for posting that video, Plumcreek! That is great. (And I wish my grandmother had been around to teach me Dutch when I was a child!)

[Man_in_Black]

A lot of a “headset” comes from the riders position/cues. The posts by Pocket Pony and Plum creek definitely touch on that.

Someone also touched on the fact that a horse’s confirmation doesn’t always allow for that typical WP or HUS headset. Using artificial methods can help it, but doesn’t always “create” it.

There’s a lot of really great info in this post! I hope you find it useful and it helps you!

PS. I had a TB that was compact and built uphill. I never worried about a fram or a headset but but instead put emphasis on balance and creating impulsion from behind. He would naturally carry himself so beautifully and was soft in the bridle to boot. To me that is much more rewarding than creating a headset.