Heart Murmurs In Dogs

[altermetoday]

My dog was recently diagnosed with a grade 4 heart murmur. He also had pneumonia at the same time and I really thought the end was near, but he pulled through. My vet told me that he was not in congestive heart failure which is good. His murmur is the type that the medications are going to cost me several hundreds of dollars per month. I recently lost my job and that is going to be tough… But, this dog also has a host of other problems on top of being 14 years old (he’s a big dog on top of that).

The vet wanted to wait to see if he pulled through his recent round of issues so I guess now I need to figure out if I have to put him on the expensive meds… He is very comfortable, alert, eats and drinks now and is overall for his age doing really well even with the murmur. No coughing at all. I did notice the last couple days that he seemed to sleep heavier or maybe more, but everything else is ok…

Has anyone chosen to not use heart meds and if so, what happened, why did you choose this and could you share anything? I’m feeling like I really should consider it, but at the same time I’m weighing how many issues he already has and my financial picture…I’m not sure what to do…ugh.

Would love any thoughts you have… I kind of feel like I’ve done a ton for this dog. he has bounced back 3 or 4 times this year when I thought that was it…just not sure how to proceed. thanks

[Sswor]

Unless the dog has gone to a cardiologist and had an echocardiogram, it is impossible to say what condition his heart is in or what the murmur is doing or not.

You can listen with a stethoscope but the sound is useless as a diagnostic tool for heart murmur. A giant, gaping hole can be almost silent while a pinprick can be “screaming”.

If you do not have funds for diagnostic tests you can wait for symptoms. Congestive heart failure has a distinctive cough associated with it, especially at night or sometimes following exercise. The blood “backs up” in the aortic artery and puts pressure on the trachea/laryngeal area making the dog feel like he needs to clear his airway. So he coughs.

My dog survived for a long time with HUGE quality of life on congestive heart failure meds. They are miracle drugs. The dog did not die of CHF, not even close. His heart was almost completely non-functioning when he developed the cough. I sobbed in the Dr’s office when the ultrasound revealed his heart was nearly 4x the normal size and the top 2 ventricles were completely non-functioning. I thought he was just “getting older”. No. His heart was almost completely unable to pump blood anymore. I started him on the meds immediately and the improvement was also almost immediate. Within hours really.

There is no shame on being short of funds. I will say that I did not pay hundreds of $$/month. Not even $100. I did get some meds from my horse vet at cost (because he was a sainted man) and some from the human pharmacy, as they are the same meds people take. Lasix is very very cheap. The Vetmedin is expensive and this is THE most important drug that will keep dogs very happily alive for a long long time with CHF.

CoQ10 and Taurine are OTC supplements that may help a great deal. You would have to research the doses for your dog’s weight.

You have to decide if you can afford any treatment but I would say once the cough develops it’s either treat or euthanize. It’s a terrible way to go if not treated. It is not fast and they will suffer. Basically drown as fluid collects in their lungs.

If you have the money, CHF is nothing to fear, in my experience. But if you do not you do have to be fair to the animal, consider their suffering. Lack of circulation affects a myrid of other little things, things you may or may not notice, but that affect the dogs quality of life and what enjoyment they still get out of it.

I’m sorry you have such a difficult situation. Perhaps talk to your horse vet and see if they can help with Rx filling, and perhaps schedule diagnostic echocardiogram on credit. Best of luck to you both.

[S1969]

Agree with the above about cost of meds - what exactly is “his type” of murmur and what drugs is the vet recommending?

[altermetoday]

I think it is pimobenden? Or something like that…I don’t remember what type of murmur right now. We were dealing with a whole host of issues on top of the murmur at the time. I think he needs to go back in for another checkup soon or I need to at least call them for an update. I can ask then.

In hindsight, I now wonder if I should have put him down when all this happened… but once the pneumonia drugs started working, he was doing really well… now I’m second guessing this because he’s sleeping a lot more and it makes me wonder.

I think we are at the point that if starts having some additonal symptoms it will be time to let him go though. When he’s awake, he seems pretty happy and engaged in the activities in the house. He’s just got so many other issues on top of this combined with his age… I think if he was younger or didn’t have so much against him, I’d consider finding a way for the meds… as of a few days ago though, he was not in congestive heart failure…

[Sswor]

Honestly, a lot of dogs get age-related heart murmur found with basic stethoscope exam in their later years. I wouldn’t be so quick to assume it needs to be treated at all.

Or–it’s possible the “pneumonia” is related, after all CHF causes fluid to build up in the lungs as it progresses.

He may be sleeping more as his body recovers from this latest ailment. Fighting illness takes a toll and the body needs to rest to recover.

I do not think you should feel guilty for “wait and see” or hospice type care for your dog. A big dog making it to 14 and “pretty happy and engaged in the activities in the house” is wonderful. I also don’t think you should second guess your decision re: treatment for the pneumonia. Quality of life is what it’s all about and it sounds like your dog has good quality and is enjoying life.

It’s so difficult watching them age and having to make decisions like this but it sounds to me like you are doing right by this dog and I’m not sure I’d be quick to throw a lot of money that you may not really have at treating a stethoscope diagnosed heart condition. Again, that “sound” the vet heard doesn’t really mean anything.

[altermetoday]

Sswor - thank you for your kind words. Very reassuring to me. He was just up for a bit hanging out for scratches and a little walk outside. Love this dog… during all this, I keep thinking of the old dogs people dump and wonder how they could do that to their pets. As hard as it is to see all this… and pay for it quite frankly… I wouldn’t have it any other way.

You might be right that he’s still recovering too. And it may be that he’s having some super good days and some days he wants to sleep more…

Thanks again!!!

[Foxtrot_s]

A lot of breeds come with inherited heart murmurs (Boxer’s included - almost standard) We have a Boxer and although she came from the most unlikely place, her heart is good, and so are her hips. Nevertheless, our vet told us to limit her exercise to moderate so as not to put an enormous strain on her heart or body.

I see some people use those chuckers on their obsessive dogs and they just don’t quit - you have to tell them it is quitting time.

Makes sense to me.

[rubles]

Altermetoday,
there is a website devoted to Cavalier King Spaniels based in the UK you might find helpful because a high percentage of the breed have mitral valve disease leadingbtomcongestive heart failure and death. Other posters with the same situation were a big help to me regarding another disease (syringamyelia) and Becausevof their help I did not have my dog euthanized. Just a thought.

[S1969]

But a cardiologist is necessary here. Lots of dogs have murmurs and many vets don’t pick up on them until they are severe. It doesn’t really matter if the defect is congenital or not. Without an echocardiogram you really can’t tell what’s going on.

[Sswor]

@S1969

But a cardiologist is necessary here. Lots of dogs have murmurs and many vets don’t pick up on them until they are severe. It doesn’t really matter if the defect is congenital or not. Without an echocardiogram you really can’t tell what’s going on.

Yes but OP does not have the available funds for the specialist testing.

[altermetoday]

@Sswor

Yes but OP does not have the available funds for the specialist testing.

That … and this dog has a whole host of other issues combined with being very old…so the struggle is balancing quality of life, his other issues, and my finances. I think at this point I’m keeping him comfortable and monitoring how he is acting… for instance, this morning he was up playing with me and the other dogs… he’s passed out now, but this morning he had a really good morning.

[S1969]

@Sswor

Yes but OP does not have the available funds for the specialist testing.

That wasn’t my point. rubles was saying you could get help via a Facebook group that had experience with breed specific congenital defects. It’s not useful for someone to tell you how to treat a mitral valve defect if you don’t know if your dog has a mitral valve defect. To identify the issue you would need more diagnostics from a specialist.

It’s one thing to choose not to treat it, and quite another to get your treatment from Facebook groups. I had a cat with a heart condition and tried all kinds of ways to medicate her and all were unsuccessful. She ended up hiding under beds all day so we didn’t try to give her a pill. My vet agreed that her quality of life was important and we agreed not to medicate.

[Romany]

We have an energetic little rescue who’s around 10yo now and she was diagnosed with a heart murmur a year ago by our vet when I took her in to have her teeth checked - a cardiologist didn’t even come into the conversation! Very rural. I didn’t know it was even an option! I will certainly look into seeing if there’s a veterinary cardiologist in the next city.

Our vet sold us VETMEDIN (Pimobendan)* for her but she’s already neurotic, and they sent her right over the edge, poor girl - she was just pinging off the walls - so we stopped. She has awful teeth, and they should really be pulled imho, but the vet won’t operate because of the heart murmur. No coughing though, and she isn’t showing any signs of slowing down. Bit of a vicious cycle, really.

We had another elderly rescue, Pekingese this time, who had a helluva heart murmur, but it didn’t slow him down for a second. No coughing, no symptoms whatsoever. He thought he was a professional greyhound, and lived life at full tilt. Died from an unrelated cause.

Good luck with your dog!

• Just musing … I now have a canister of useless Vetmedin sitting here - anyone want it? Can I even do that? Will rescues take it, I wonder?

[Sswor]

And THAT^^ is why you MUST get an echocardiogram on a dog before starting any kind of treatment. It is the only way to know what’s going on with the heart. It cannot be said enough that stethoscope diagnosis of heart murmur is next to useless.

Glad to hear your dog is feeling well, OP.

[Sswor]

@Romany

• Just musing … I now have a canister of useless Vetmedin sitting here - anyone want it? Can I even do that? Will rescues take it, I wonder?

Most rescues will take it, yes. Your vet should take it to donate to the rescue of their choice, at least most vets do. Beside the point–I’m making faces at your vet for Rx-ing Vetmedin for the described dog based on stethoscope diagnosis.

[MsM]

My dog has a murmur. It was found when she needed surgery for an intestinal obstruction at 9 yo. It is MVD (of course, she is a Cavalier!) but the echo showed no heart enlargement or need for medication. Her heart is still functioning well a year later. (Though she has other issues)

[Romany]

@Sswor

Most rescues will take it, yes. Your vet should take it to donate to the rescue of their choice, at least most vets do. Beside the point–I’m making faces at your vet for Rx-ing Vetmedin for the described dog based on stethoscope diagnosis.

THANK YOU. I’m going to ask for a referral to a veterinary cardiologist.