Having never dealt/exposed to one how significant are heart murmurs in horses? PPE on potential dressage prospect unveiled one. I’ll be discussing with my home big clinic vet on Monday.
Is it a deal breaker? Can they show up spontaneously or are they inherited? This was apparently a shocking revelation in a 5 year old.
I might have a new story to add ‘Last minute surprises when horse shopping’ post…
It depends on the type. There is one type really common in fit sport horses where it sounds like ‘lub dub lub dub lub…lub dub lub dub’
I can’t ever remember what it is called, but one of mine has it and besides needing a little more effort to build endurance, he is fine. He raced on it. My vet said not to worry unless I planned on running a four star one day with him.
I should also mention it goes away with exercise. If I canter him around and take a listen, I won’t hear it.
I had a gelding with both a murmur and A-fib. The latter is more concerning. He did upper level dressage until 20 and lived to almost 26.
Depending on the vet findings, it might not be a deal breaker. Is the horse fit? In solid work? How old? Any assessment of cause? They could ultrasound the heart and give you more info.
Edited to add: just notice horse is 5. hmmm, more worrisome to me.
http://www.equinews.com/article/heart-murmurs-often-don’t-affect-performance-horses
[QUOTE=StormyDay;8859812]
It depends on the type. There is one type really common in fit sport horses where it sounds like ‘lub dub lub dub lub…lub dub lub dub’
I can’t ever remember what it is called, but one of mine has it and besides needing a little more effort to build endurance, he is fine. He raced on it. My vet said not to worry unless I planned on running a four star one day with him.
I should also mention it goes away with exercise. If I canter him around and take a listen, I won’t hear it.[/QUOTE]
I think you are talking about a 2nd degree AV block which is an arrhythmia normally found in fit horses.
[QUOTE=Beethoven;8859869]
I think you are talking about a 2nd degree AV block which is an arrhythmia normally found in fit horses.[/QUOTE]
Yep, that’s the one. Guess it really isn’t a murmur at all 
However the first time the vet in Washington heard it, he had no idea what it was and called it a murmur. He was so worried he advised a specialist, but I had a second opinion from a different vet who told me it was no big deal.
Point is, sometimes vets are good at one thing and not very well versed in another. I knew a vet who couldn’t apply standing wraps. I think unless you have a diagnosis, it is really hard to tell if it is career ending or not.
When I did a PPE on my 4 y/o off the track the vet said he detected a mild heart murmur. He knew I was buying a horse to event and didn’t seem concerned in the slightest about the murmur. He also said it could go away with exercise too (something which still doesn’t make sense to me because if she was racing wouldn’t she be getting a decent amount of exercise? Whatever.) Another friend of mine passed on an ottb with a heart murmur, and she was looking for a low level hunter/jumper…I think it just ultimately depends on what you’re comfortable with and what the vet has to say about it.
I bought a 3 year old with a heart murmur that the vet mentioned but was not too concerned about. I evented her through training level and it never caused a problem. However, she did drop dead at age 9, probably from a ruptured aorta. I have no idea if the murmur had anything to do with that or not. If I were you, I’d have a more in-depth talk with the vet about it, how bad it is, and prognosis for the future.
A murmur is just a swishing sound. Many times it is normal. See an internal medicine vet for an echocardiogram. They can make sure that the murmur is ok.
Some time back, a friend called with the same issue, though she was the seller. PPE had picked up a murmur, and buyer was nervous.
Seller had been regularly hunting the horse in question, and he had no clinical signs of any cardiovascular problem.
I suggested they take horse in for an echocardiogram and split the cost.
They dd, horse was fine, sale proceeded.
I wrote about this on another thread, but I bought a long yearling who had a murmur. Had a PPE done, by the seller’s recommended vet (yes, I know, bad decision). She didn’t say a word about it. And there was NO way she didn’t hear it… it was a grade 4-5, and PALPABLE. But that’s neither here nor there.
Anyway, he’s 4 and a half now, and it’s pretty much gone (it may be like a level 1 when he’s been worked REALLY hard, but I haven’t listened in a while). He’s outgrown it, which is common. Did they tell you what grade it is? I took my guy to the big vet hospital, and they did a full cardio workup. They said that at most, it would prevent him from being ultra competitive. Otherwise, he would be fine.
This article helped me decipher what the vets said:
http://largeanimal.vethospitals.ufl.edu/hospital-services/cardiology/heart-murmurs-in-horses/
My horse was diagnosed with a grade 2 murmur when he was 6. Ultrasound confirmed 2 leaky valves. He’s a low level eventer, and we do hunter paces in the fall. Lots and lots of galloping. As of age 11, the vet was unable to hear it, and it hasn’t been heard since.
Any chance this is an OTTB? It’s very common in them and do tend to get better as they get further away from their racing careers.
Vet described it as a grade 3, only heard on the left side not on the right. My concern other than the murmur itself is that this is a barely started 5 yr old that has not been in ‘real’ work as of yet. That makes me far less comfortable than if it was a horse in regular work already.
Not an OTTB or TB, warmblood. At this point to me it’s on the onus of the seller to investigate/ultrasound it as it is a major concern to me as a buyer and I’m not interested in burning more money than I already have on the excursion.
The problem with murmurs is that most vets don’t do a good job classifying them. They don’t say if it’s systolic, diastolic, holosystolic, etc. At least they told you left sided so you can narrow it down a little bit. But without knowing if the valve is leaking or stenotic, or which valve it is it’s hard to make a decision.
With a grade 3 I would tell the seller that it’s a no until I can see the results from an echo.
Grade 3 on a young horse not in heavy work…I would pass.
I would want it specific diagnosis before making up my mind. Grade is pretty much meaningless, there are some LOUD murmurs that are harmless and some quiet murmurs that are very serious. The cost to get a diagnosis is high, so I would have to really love the horse to go to that length to get a firm answer.
If you don’t want to spend the money to get a full diagnosis, and if the owner is unwilling to do it, then I would pass. There are many quality horses out there.
I had an OTTB that was fine on PPE at 16. 4 yrs later he was suddenly and dramatically ill - heart murmur w/ a ‘thrill’. You could feel it with your hand resting on his girth area. He was unsafe to ride so we retired him. I always wondered about the genetic aspect; we didn’t do diagnostics because why did it matter if it was the valves or something else- the outcome wouldn’t have changed for him.
[QUOTE=Write&Ride;8860805]
I had an OTTB that was fine on PPE at 16. 4 yrs later he was suddenly and dramatically ill - heart murmur w/ a ‘thrill’. You could feel it with your hand resting on his girth area. He was unsafe to ride so we retired him. I always wondered about the genetic aspect; we didn’t do diagnostics because why did it matter if it was the valves or something else- the outcome wouldn’t have changed for him.[/QUOTE]
What genetic cause would you expect to manifest at age 20?
Ghazzu, I didn’t mean a congenital defect per se. I wondered if a certain TB bloodline was more apt to develop this - I don’t know how common it is for horses to suddenly have this occur at any age. Someone else commented that OTTBs might be prone to murmurs but less so the longer they were away from racing. This horse was 17 years past his brief career. The horse was fairly lightly used so maybe it was destined to happen and would’ve occurred earlier if he’d been an eventer or jumper.
At the age of 20, it would not be surprising that things might be wearing out or there might b damage from events over the horse’s lifespan.
I have a horse with a loud 3 murmur. To really know the implications, I’d have to get an echo done, which I have not.
My vet explained it to me that the volume of the murmur doesn’t really mean anything - it could be a small defect in a high-pressure area or a large defect in a low pressure area.
A vet student recorded it an discussed it with her professor - he thought it wasn’t actually a murmur but rather a valve that was not closing all the way (I might have some terms wrong here), creating a “flutter” at the peak.
Horse is upper level dressage, age 13. I’m careful working when it’s really hot - I make sure to get his heart rate down throughout a ride and as fast as I can after.
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