Heavy weight / weighted fulmer snaffle.... why?

I’m studying French Dressage and will use it with my new youngster, since it suits her temperament/build. Seems loads of Traditionalists recommend the fulmer bit for greenies, including the Spanish Riding School and the Cadre Noir of Saumur (obviously any tool is only as good as the hands it’s in). So I’m following their lead and ordered a fulmer to fit my girl. She’s got the final say about what bit she goes in… but heck, I’ve got to start somewhere. (For anyone unsure, a fulmer bit looks like a full cheek snaffle except each cheek has a loose ring to attach the reins and bridle)

The fulmer I received says “heavy weight” on the tag, but the ad didn’t mention that. Other places market the exact same bit as “heavy weight” so I assume the weight is some kind of… feature? I understand the purpose, function, and action of the fulmer, including how it differs from a “standard” (fixed ring) full cheek bit, and also that fulmers are usually heavier than full cheeks because of design-- but why call it a “heavy weight fulmer” unless it’s specifically heavier than normal fulmers? But heck I don’t know, maybe they’re just trying to point out it’s not a hollow mouth or something? My feed scale says it weights a bit over 500g (1lbs)! So can anyone shed some light on the “heavy weight” thing? Intentional for function or byproduct of design? If it’s intentional, my best guess is the weight adds stability (loose rings can cause unnecessary/distracting movement). I obviously haven’t used the bit yet and won’t until I have a better understanding. I’m concerned it’ll sit too heavy in her green mouth and be uncomfortable. I often wrap my bits in Sealtex, especially since it’s getting cold out… but obviously that won’t make it lighter.

It’s worth mentioning the hand is used differently in the French style versus the German/FEI. The bit isn’t pulled back onto the bars of the mouth, instead the hand is lifted so the bit acts on the corners of the lips. I’m definitely not looking to start a debate about German vs French Dressage or anything like that (tbh the first time I saw French training I thought they were high or “tetched” in the head), I only mention that in case it’s relevant to the weight thing.

I think your idea that there’s a distinction between the German and French “schools” is an old one, and not very accurate. Take a look at this article, and then think about how much weight you want to put in your horse’s mouth: “https://dressagetoday.com/lifestyle/find-the-bit-that-fits-32028”. I’ve had very good responses also with Neue Schule’s Salox Gold bits, which are very light, and very friendly - many horses with contact issues improve in the NS bits.

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I think the idea was to create stability. In reality I imagine you get a quite mouth because the tongue is weighed quite heavily. Personally, I love the newer bits that are narrower but fairly light and anatomical. I respect the experts from the past but also feel strongly that with things such as bit and saddles that “old school” is often less comfortable for the horse.

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As you say, the horse is the final decider in what’s right. My experience with a fulmer was on a horse who had recovered from a mouth injury. The pain he experienced from the injury made him very distrustful of bits in general. After trying a variety of bits, the horse appreciated the fulmer , maybe for its lack of movement next to the cheek where the injury had been. The fulmer was a stage in restoring his trust and it worked very well for that. Then we moved onto the modern bits. As GraceLikeRain said, narrower and anatomical.

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Weighted bits are meant to create a « headset », it gets quite heavy and the horse has to hold itself in an unatural way (not through real training). Since it’s heavy, some used it to solve head tossing problems.

The horse has to hold the bit and close it’s mouth on it, so it is also used for horses who open their mouths.

The action on the corners, bars and tongue is also way stronger with heavy bits. Less rein action is required because the bit is doing half the job.

There’s heavy and heavy. I don’t particularly like hollow bits and prefer full 16mm ones. I would never put a bit that weights more than that in my horse’s mouth.

I’ve seen 2lbs bits.

Yours at 1lbs is milder but still quite heavy.

Not sure how you could achieve the true lightness you are looking for if the bit fakes it for half of it.

Having not seen the bit, I might be wrong, but that’s my opinion. :wink:

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I’m curious to hear why you feel the distinction between the French and German schools “is an old one”? Having studied both (though admittedly with more experience in the German/FEI school), my experience has been that there are significant differences-- in priorities, methodology, and technique. But I’m always interested in other opinions. Perhaps you’re referring to the fact FEI Dressage is becoming increasingly more prevalent in France and other Western European countries? If that’s case I can see where you’re coming from, however I’d disagree that the German school becoming common in France is the same as it becoming “the French school” – the names aren’t meant to reflect what’s currently ridden in a given country, but rather to distinguish the styles, regardless of literal geographic location. The names really can’t be taken literally… after all, the most famous center of French Dressage-- The Spanish Riding School (to add another country to the mix)-- is in Austria, a Germanic country. However I’m only taking a stab at what you meant, and could be mistaken. As I said, I’m always curious to hear others’ view points, and I wouldn’t want to put words in your mouth.

Thank you for the article-- I don’t think it related much to my particular question here, and most of the information was pretty basic and at this point in time well known, but still it did have some interesting tid bits. I found the discussion of bitting metals especially interesting. I suppose I always knew there were various metals used in bits, but hadn’t given much thought to all their unique properties. I’m not sure, but I suspect you shared tge article on the assumption my fulmer bit is “heavy weight” because it’s got a thick mouthpiece? Which is certainly a fair assumption. Surprisingly, the mouthpiece isn’t terribly thick-- though I’ll still be sure to carefully assess how it fits my girl’s unique mouth. Most of the weight seems to be reinforcement on the cheek pieces themselves, although I never explained that.

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Just google « horse weighted bit » (or a combination of those words)

Usually it’s the cheek pieces that are weighted. Mostly use in the western disciplines.

The heavier the bit, the more weight on the poll, which might cause a horse to drop its’ poll. I think this is often the case when horses are introduced to the double bridle; i.e. the weight of the two bits.

I don’t think there is much if any difference between French dressage and German. French ‘Classical’ is in a class by itself (SRS, P. Karl, etc.). jmho I’ve never seen a Fulmer in any competitons I’ve attended nor in any training barn I’ve been in.

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Interested what German School did you study?? Are you talking about the School around Schultheiss? Or the School around Klimke, or the School around Egon v. Neindorff???

Funny, I had a chance to spend a weekend with a well-known French (Saumer) BNT. One of our group asked him about the differences in the French and German schools. He stated there were no differences – they are all the same. Steinbrecht, he noted, studied Gueriniere.

Steinbrecht was a student of Louis Seeger, who was himself a student of Max von Weyrother of the Spanish Riding School. It comes full circle. So, good riding is good riding, never mind “nationality”. There are only good, bad, better or worse interpretations of how things are done. JMHO, that last bit.

I hope, OP, that you aren’t confusing Baucherism with the French School? I won’t go there…

But back to the original topic. Many years ago, I had a teacher who had a few of those nice old heavy Fulmer bits. Too narrow (4.5" to 5") for any horses we were riding, and all of them were single-jointed bits with fat mouthpieces. IMO, the very fat mouthpieces are not necessarily comfortable for many horses, and most of the horses I’ve ridden in the last 30 years go better in double-jointed mouthpieces. We have learned much about the anatomy of the horse’s mouth. That said, I can see and understand the usefulness of the full-cheek/Fulmer bits in some situations.

Excellent insights everyone and definitely a lot of food for thought! I appreciate everyone who’s taken the time to weigh in (no pun intended). I reckon I’m no clearer on the “heavy weight” fulmer, but it does seem the general consensus is it’s not an ideal but for starting a horse. I suppose I’m still unclear why it’s recommended/used by so many traditionalists, such as The Spanish Riding school, but as I’m not in a position to ask them, I reckon the prudent choice is to start with one of my “old faithfuls” that greenies seem to like and that’s likely to fit her, and move on from there.

I AM surprised to hear the prevailing view seems to be there’s no difference in the German and French schools. I suppose much of it may come down to which trainer one focuses on, and at which period of time they were practicing. To be honest, when I speak of the German school I’m referring largely to FEI Dressage, the rules of which were based on The German Calvary Manuals (1 & 2), which partially intended to codify German Dressage. Obviously, many would say modern FEI Dressage is no longer an apt representation of the German School. That said, I still obverse a great deal of differences between the methods of the two schools, but perhaps it’s just an artifact of the teachers and reading material I’ve personally experienced. I’ve always understood the differences in the schools to stem from the historical difference between the Baroque horse and the heavier historic Germanic horses, so that the German school evolved as more “heavy handed” (meaning, the rider must influence the horse to a greater extent, in proportion to their historically more phlegmatic and more horizontally built horses) with a greater emphasis on creating impulsion in the horse, whereas the hotter and more compact Baroque horse lead to a system which emphasized lightness of the rider and utilized the more adjustable balance of their compact and more upright horses.

I can certainly understand how, when practiced correctly, both systems should produce similar end results, assuming that all correct Dressage strives to develop the maximum natural ability of the horse. However in my personal experience-- which is obviously limited to certain influences I’ve encountered and excludes other influences I haven’t, but others have-- the approach to reaching that ultimate goal are often different, to varying extents, although there’s also significant overlap. However, differences certainly exists, which lead to the concept if “French Dressage” or “German Dressage” etc, rather than simply saying “Dressage”. Clearly the distinction was significant enough (certainly in the past, if less so now) that it warranted the title of different schools, rather than similar enough that just sayin “Dressage” was sufficient to explain the training. In my mind, it makes sense that horses of different builds and temperaments will respond better to certain methods, and that some variation in standard technique would naturally arise when regions work primarily with horses of very different strengths and weaknesses. It makes sense to me that these styles would emphasize developing certain things which are more difficult for the average horse in that region, and which would utilize and build upon their natural strengths. But I’m not implying a certain style can only suit or develop one type of horse, only that even if the end goal is the same, it’d be bizarre for masters in different regions with different horses to use absolutely identical methods, and completely fail to evaluate their horses’ unique needs and adjust their general methods accordingly. Of course this is probably most accurate if one looks at the time period where the idea of a “national breed” was well established.

Just a long ramble on my understanding. I just like to put my thoughts, understanding, and experience out there, and any and all are free to chime in with ways I’m mistaken or where my logic msy have faltered. Then I get the opportunity to delve into something more and gain a better understanding.

As for the person who clearly doesn’t think much of Baucher, I’m curious if you’ve had the chance to look into his “Second Manner”? Baucher sustained a serious injury later in his career and, having lost much of his ability to manhandle the horse, reevaluated his" First Manner" and himself renounced it and declared it wrong. His Second Manner is very different to the First, and inspired many classical riders and the sport of Dressage as a whole. It was extremely influential to the sport. I have huge respect for Baucher. First, because it speaks highly of his character that he could examine his own ideas and reject the wrong he saw-- most people can’t, or won’t, do that. Second, because when he sought a new and kinder way, he did so in such a prodigious way that he altered the very course of the horse world. Now, it’s very in vogue to deride Baucher tgese days. Unfortunately, generally speaking those who do are only parroting popular sentiment and have never actually read the Manner which Baucher himself didn’t disown.

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I follow French classical dressage (train with someone in the PK school) and I very much like fulmer bits as have most of my horses. Unfortunately, my current horse really prefers the Micklem bridle and I couldn’t get the fulmer bit to work with that bridle, so I have had to switch bits. However, I am not a fan of the “heavy weight” ones - I bought the “normal” ones. IME, the “heavy weight” fulmers have 16mm mouthpieces while the regular ones have thinner mouthpieces (e.g. 13mm) so the thickness of the mouthpiece is the main difference between them. My horse has a low palate and fleshy lips (so not much space in her mouth), so a thinner mouthpiece is more comfortable for her. Horseloverz.com sells both a heavy weight and a regular fulmer.

Back in the “Dark Ages” (1970) when I started riding seriously, Fulmer bits were popular with the British Instructors (BHSI) I got my first horse from.

They liked the Fulmer bit (usually Eldonian, hollow mouth single joint) because it could affect the horse’s mouth three different ways. Just the Fulmer bit with a regular hunting cavesson, which worked mostly on the lips, the Fulmer bit with bit loops and a regular hunting cavesson which worked on the bars of the horse’s mouth, and the Fulmer bit with bit loops and a dropped noseband which was supposed to sort of replicate the action of a curb bit, minus the leverage.

Because the rings are set off to the side, a 5" Fulmer is stronger than it looks, as the extra length to the ring increases the leverage on the horse’s mouth. My Eldonian Fulmer is heavier than a normal full-cheek snaffle, and much thicker.

A bit of history. No pun intended. Robert Hall, the founder of the Fulmer School of Equitation spent some time at the SRS in the late 50’s or early 60’s. He came home and began promulgating the Fulmer snaffle which was properly called the Austrian free ring bit, which has been used at the SRS, for eons. He also brought back the design for the Turf and Travel Fulmer dressage saddle., an innovation in British, (and American) riding. His wife rode Conversano Caprice, a Lipizzaner for the 1960 British Olympic team.

I fondly remember a comment he made when asked what he was working on now. His answer,“Walk, trot and canter”. A premise that is still true.

So-to the Fulmer Snaffle-I haven’t seen any with a hollow mouthpiece, so they are heavy. They are always used with keepers,as without keepers they will swivel forward and no longer lie properly in the mouth, They are commonly used with a drop nose band. The fact that as with all bits they hang from the crown piece and its attached cheek pieces mitigates it weight.

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I use a Fulmer and it seems as light as any other snaffle.

A fulmer, hollow or solid, is a regular bit. It weights about the same as other ones.

The OP is talking about a weighted bit, not a regular one.