Heels too Far Down

[Satirical]

So I’m kind of in a slump. I decided after auditing many clinics to bit the bullet and finally ride in one. I felt that my horse and I had really progressed and after being demo rides for a big fair could handle it. Well, it didn’t go too well. I don’t regret doing it–learned a lot–but it’s embarrassing when your typically well minded horse acts like he isn’t even broke. This horse has traveled extensively so it wasn’t the low key atmosphere. However, there was some talk that his fitted saddle may no longer be fitting him anymore–so I’ll be posting pictures of that momentarily.

One of the many takeaways I got from this ride is that my heels are too far down. After many years of taking hunter/jumper lessons, it is a challenge to keep my heel further up. I’m wondering how I can get past this mental block. My heels aren’t hyper extended in the least bit. I actually took a jumper lessons a few months ago and was consistently yelled at to keep my heels further down. Now, I’m told they need to go up–THE MADNESS!

Thoughts?

[SaddleUp158]

I have the same problem. What has helped me is to think more weight across the ball of your foot/stirrup, even weight in toes (even though it isn’t, it just helps me counteract too deep of heels). I am told that when I have my heels down it locks my ankle. I will say, my mare is much softer and relaxed when I manage to keep my heels “up” and weight across the ball of my foot. Think flat foot through the stirrup. I started off in hunter jumpers, and even though it was only for 3 years that is ingrained in my head (over a decade later, lol).

[mvp]

I have been told by a dressage trainer (but not another one, lol) that my heels were too low. Here’s the bottom line: You want no tension in any joints in your leg. All of 'em, ankles, knees hips, do their part in absorbing shock as you sit on the moving horse underneath you. I don’t quite get it, but I think it’s like letting the motion of the horse that really influences your pelvis ripple out down your leg.

So! Lots of dressage pros and (wrongly) think that raising your heel is the answer. And, I suppose, taking a macroscopic look at your equitation, that makes sense. But you can have your heel lower than your toe and do the job… so long as your ankle and knee are soft. I like to feel for a bit of a spring in my foot off the stirrup. When I can feel that at the sitting trot, I know I have all the joints of my leg relaxed.

The dressage pro who yells at you for a low heel is right if your heel is wedged down. And FWIW, I think the leg-as-shock-absorber works the same way in jumping tack. The wedged-down heel might be something that looks forced and fixed (because the rider has allowed so much of her weight to sink down into her stirrups). But really, that low heel in a position based on a two-point (and lighter posting) is accomplished the same way the dressage rider does it: All of the joints in the leg have to relax in order to have a good heel that’s low and not forced.

The dressage pro who liked my heel OK (and judges who have commented on my nice leg) call my foot “settled in the stirrup.” So really, the long leg with a heel that’s low is cool (especially on a spooky horse), so long as you don’t have tension in your leg.

[TheHotSensitiveType]

I am sorry your clinic ride did not go as well as you had hoped! Big hugs, and I hope the next one you attend goes better.

When I glance in a mirror, and see my heels are too low, I immediately notice that I am ‘forcing’ my weight down into my heels (i.e. I can feel tension down my whole leg). If I focus on letting my legs hang, voila! My heels go to where they should be. If only I could always remember this…

[see_u_at_x]

I struggle with this as well, so I try to make sure the stirrup is placed WAY at the front of the ball of my foot. And I mean almost underneath my toes. My entire right side is tighter than my left (I have to really make sure I’m not bracing and straightening my leg too much on that side), so placing the stirrup there does seem to help. Also, how long are your stirrups? I had been riding with mine a smidge on the shorter side because my horse is young and I felt like I had more security that way. When I did a clinic on Dec. 26th, the clinician, who didn’t want to overface me with too much change all at once, said to my instructor, “See if you can get her to drop her stirrups a hole.” :lol: So, my instructor waited a couple of days and then made me drop them a hole which has helped tremendously. My feet are a lot more level now and I don’t feel like I’m purposefully jamming my heels down like I used to do.

[Mondo]

“After many years of taking hunter/jumper lessons, it is a challenge to keep my heel further up. I’m wondering how I can get past this mental block.” For dressage, you need to ride with more of a horizontal foot. That said, I prefer a rider with the weight in her heel to a rider who’s heel is continuously higher than her toe. How you get past your “mental block” is easy. Ride without your irons as often as possible. It is impossible to force your heel into an exaggerated “heel down” position without a stirrup to press against. Relax your leg and let it hang long naturally, don’t try to hold any “leg position.” Also point your toes at the floor, rotate your foot and loosen up your ankle. Good luck.

[MissAriel]

This was something I had to get over as well. As mvp and others have said, it isn’t so much the position of the heel, but the fact that when you force your heel down, you often tense the whole leg. In my case, I tensed all the way through my tush, causing me to pop out of the saddle.
Longe lessons, no stirrup work and focusing on riding with my leg from hip to knee, and with my seat all really helped. Imagine your legs draping over the horse and reaching for the ground with your whole leg, not just the heel, so that if the horse poofed out from under you, you would be standing. I never spent much time worrying about my heel position, but it did become more level as I have gotten better at relaxing my leg.

[MissAriel]

@Mondo

It is impossible to force your heel into an exaggerated “heel down” position without a stirrup to press against.

I have to respectfully disagree with this. I spent plenty of hours going around H/J lessons, with no stirrups and STILL heels down. It worse than jamming your heels down with stirrups, because you are just lifting your toes with the muscles over your shins, but it is possible.

[TresGauche]

Me too, Miss A!

[Mondo]

Yes, you two. I’ll grant you that. BUT - it is easier NOT to do it without the irons to press against, yes?

[Satirical]

Thanks everyone for the great advice–very helpful. I guess my biggest issue (especially after years of riding hunter/jumper) is the posting trot. My gelding is only schooling TL and First. And while we do a little in the sitting trot; I try to stay off his back because he is still getting strength. Plus, the winter is always rough and he isn’t in the best shape. It seems when my heels aren’t slightly down (not hyper flexed) I find myself pinching my knees. How to a lift in the posting trot without added weight in my heels?

[sammy14]

Something that may be happening is that your toes are pointing out, and that you’re leaning a bit ? For me it’s physiologically difficult to have jammed down heels without the toes going out and the body tilting or the back losing flexibility,so if that is corrected the heels will be more ideal. It’s a question of balance versus security ie the security from leg and body you need going into a x country fence versus the balance in motion that allows the horse to use his whole body in a swinging bouncy way. So, if you fix the angles and bring alignment back, the too deep heel will go away maybe.

[netg]

I have had multiple trainers tell me not to put my heels down so far because I have the hunter heels down thing, but I also have the middle aged and injured tight hips thing, so the heels down push my feet way in front of me besides tightening everything, instead of well balanced like I used to be as a teen.

For me, two feelings have helped. Thinking of weighting the toes is now a mental signal to my body, because putting my weight into my heels eliminates the give I need to have in my heels to move with my horse. My trainer and I discovered by accident one day that if I adjust my stirrup on my foot I relax all the muscles in my leg, and it stays looser and more draped. So he has me think of trying to keep my stirrup/pick it back up (even though I already have it), etc. I can invisibly fix leg tension by playing with my toes in my boot now. It works quite well.

[TresGauche]

@Mondo

Yes, you two. I’ll grant you that. BUT - it is easier NOT to do it without the irons to press against, yes?

I can’t speak for anyone else but the “heels down or die” mentality of the H/J world over rides anything. To the point that stirrups or not I “ease down” into my heels upon getting on the horse, every time. Every single time. Keep in mind that although some dressage riders may ride without stirrups occasionally, those of us who jump spend hours without stirrups (and reins!) not just at the w/t/c but also over fences and lines of fences and grids of gymnastics. So no, not easier with or without stirrups.

[Satirical]

I actually don’t pitch forward at all–my former competition pony mare taught me that the hard way. Both “sit back” and “heels down” are ingrained into every fiber of my being. My toes don’t point out either. I’ll try to take a video sometime soon so you guys can rip me apart. I don’t feel my leg stiffen when I put a lot of my weight into my heels, but the issue I’m having is with the posting trot. I just have a hard time figuring out what muscles I need to use to rise since I’m not supposed to put the amount of height I am into my heels.

I’ve done a ton of no stirrup work–half seat, full seat, posting, the works. I’m just having a hard time visualize how I’m to post the trot in a dressage saddle with even heels. I’ll use a lot of the visualization you guys have given me next time I ride.

[CHT]

What if you tried putting your heel in the stirrup instead of your toe? I have not tried this, but it might be an interesting experiment to stop you from dropping too much into the heel.

To post, just pretend your leg is chopped off below your knee. Post down into your knee. Let your lower leg be independent of the posting motion. That image worked for me when converting from hunter/jumper to dressage.

[netg]

@Satirical

I actually don’t pitch forward at all–my former competition pony mare taught me that the hard way. Both “sit back” and “heels down” are ingrained into every fiber of my being. My toes don’t point out either. I’ll try to take a video sometime soon so you guys can rip me apart. I don’t feel my leg stiffen when I put a lot of my weight into my heels, but the issue I’m having is with the posting trot. I just have a hard time figuring out what muscles I need to use to rise since I’m not supposed to put the amount of height I am into my heels.

I’ve done a ton of no stirrup work–half seat, full seat, posting, the works. I’m just having a hard time visualize how I’m to post the trot in a dressage saddle with even heels. I’ll use a lot of the visualization you guys have given me next time I ride.

It’s more putting your hips forward than posting as you think of it in hunters. I’m finally starting to get it to seem natural after years, and I have found it much harder to keep my hands still posting in dressage until recently. But I’ve even seen Charlotte post with her hands, so I don’t feel too bad about it.

[theresak]

I’d check that the saddle fits you - I wonder if the stirrup bars might be in the wrong place or your stirrups aren’t long enough.

[Pocket_Pony]

I was also going to comment on pointing toes out versus pointing toes forward. That actually comes from the hip with the whole leg being rotated.

I grew up doing h/j and was constantly picked on for heels down. It is very annoying since most trainers do not understand or give a hoot about a person’s own conformation and what that allows their bodies to do or not do. I cannot do heels down. Nor can I do a deep grand plie in ballet. My body just isn’t built that way.

OP, it may just be that you are hyper flexible and that is how your body goes. And it may be that by trying to change it you are actually creating more tension because you are going against what is natural for your body.

But, back to the toes out / leg out. In dressage the leg position is more of a toes-forward position which, as I mentioned above, comes from the hip. See if you can adjust your leg when you first get on. It might help if you have someone on the ground “show your leg the way” by manually adjusting it. Lift your leg out and away from the horse. Rotate your whole leg inward, starting with the thigh so that your knees are pointing forward. Relax your leg against the horse. Just let it sit there. Don’t try to put your toes down or heels down, just let it be. Sit on your horse for a moment and don’t move. Scan your body. See if you can recognize a place where you are holding tension. See what you need to do to let that go.

Now walk forward. Did your body change? Did tension creep up? Did your leg rotate back to it’s “normal” position? Did your heels go down? Stop your horse, pull your leg away again, toes and knees forward. Start over. When I switched from h/j to dressage, my new dressage instructor did this to me every lesson at the beginning of the lesson, multiple times. I couldn’t even make a full circle without being readjusted.

It sounds very tedious, and it is, but when coming from a h/j background, your seat/leg/heels are used to being in a different position and your muscle memory wants to take over. You need new muscle memory.

Another thing to consider is your seat and how it sits in the saddle. In h/j there’s more of a “bum out” position as you hover over the saddle in two-point (think squats). That position is good for maintaining your center of balance as you are semi-squatting in the saddle. It also facilitates heels-down. In a dressage saddle you want more of a “belly button forward” position, which allows your leg to hang/drape more straight down and don’t necessitate or facilitate a strong heels-down position.

Related to the above, saddle fit for the rider could also be a big issue. Where do the stirrup bars hang? How comfortable is the seat (how deep or shallow, narrow or wide, steep rise or not, etc.)? Where does your bum fit in it? How do the thigh blocks help or hinder your leg, etc. There’s lots to consider and it helps to sit in a lot of saddles to determine what fits you best and makes it easier to ride. I know when I found a dressage saddle that fit me well, I was like “so that’s the secret!” A saddle that fits you well allows you to just “be” and you don’t have to fight to put any part of your body anywhere, it all just clicks!

I know it is a scary proposition to post a video, but someone may see something that helps you out a little bit.

[TresGauche]

Wow, Pocket! Helpful post!! Thank you!!

And I so identify with you and your heels. I do not ride heels up by any means, always had a slightly lowered heel but the forced down heel I seem to have now (even though my body just goes there now) has created a very tense lower leg.