Helgstrand, Parra, blue tongues - the list just keeps growing

[IPEsq]

The thing is what is “uncooperative”? Does that include valuing your fourth amendment rights to not consent to a search? This assumption that if you don’t want to be searched, you have something to hide is what drives me crazy. What if you were a POC or a foreigner (getting somewhat back to the horse training relevance) and you were frequently singled out as being suspicious? How many times would you consent to being searched just to be nice when it is your right to refuse consent?

As you said, if something about me or my vehicle or whatever seems to match up with something/someone involved in a crime, LE doesn’t need my consent. If they just want to search without cause, sorry.

[endlessclimb]

Yeah, because I didn’t do anything to warrant it being searched. Period, full stop.

They’re law enforcement, not czars.

[DownYonder]

I hear you, and I can certainly understand that POV.

I do think though that being uncooperative with LE projects an antagonistic attitude toward them, which they are going to remember. It’s generally not conducive to the development of a good working relationship with them. You never know when you are going to really need their assistance.

[endlessclimb]

Not consenting to an unlawful search is not being uncooperative.

It’s thwarting their ability to circumvent the laws they swore to protect, which they may find annoying. Tough cookies. Their title as law enforcement does not mean that they don’t have to follow the laws.

Come to my door and ask to look around inside? Show me a warrant. Want to search my car? Warrant please.

[lenapesadie]

I don’t disagree with that. But it is the way it is.

[sascha]

@DownYonder

I do think though that being uncooperative with LE projects an antagonistic attitude toward them, which they are going to remember. It’s generally not conducive to the development of a good working relationship with them. You never know when you are going to really need their assistance.

The Actual???

You seem to not understand the reverse of your idealized situation. Joe Citizen consenting to unwarranted searches gives law enforcement/government precedence to increase that sort of unlawful activity, to expect it as a right. Then it’s a downward spiral to Joe Citizen losing rights. The world has been down similar rabbit holes and we, as Joe Law Abiding Citizen, don’t need to contribute to that kind of demise again, tyvm.

[Knights_Mom]

@DownYonder

@Bogey2

They must have a warrant to search,

I work with LE in a peripheral role for my job, and according to materials from the Homeland Security Federal Law Enforcement Training Center, LE can conduct a search if you give them permission, or if they have probable cause to believe that evidence related to a crime or some kind of contraband is located in the vehicle.

In one of our training classes, it was stressed that an officer can’t force a search without your permission just because s/he wants to harass you for some reason - s/he has to have a legitimate reason that can hold up to scrutiny by their chain of command and the PD’s Internal Affairs group, as well as by the DA’s office, the media, etc.

I personally would give them permission - I have nothing to hide.

You never give police permission to search. You get that warrant. You never can predict someone planting something.

The rules for searches is pretty universal. What differs is what constitutes probable cause.

I was sitting in listening to arraignment hearings when I worked arraignment. A case came in where a person was caught trespassing (sleeping) on a parked off service bus. Police searched the guy and found drugs. So he was arrested for that as opposed to just getting a summons for the trespass. So it goes to arraignment and the Judge dismissed the case as the trespass did NOT constitute probable cause for the search to be legal.

After thinking about it a few minutes I could finally grasp the concept.

[pluvinel]

Regent Law professor on why you don’t want to talk to the police

Don't Talk to the Police

[endlessclimb]

My mother, lifelong attorney, has advised that if you’re getting arrested for anything, the only word you know is “attorney”.

[Ghazzu]

@Bogey2

They must have a warrant to search

I’d guess that they can make access to the paddock/backstretch conditional on agreeing to vehicle searches. It is, after all, private property.

[MadTrotter]

@fivestrideline

It’s one of the many grey areas around the use of animals in law enforcement.

I am certain these dogs are trained well. Training them goes into the 5 figures around here.

The police officers…I’ve seen some questionable and confusing handling. And of course there’s the plausible deniability angle.

[MadTrotter]

You can be respectful and still assert your rights to protect yourself. “I understand you’re doing your job, and I am not trying to be combative. I would however like to assert that I do not consent to this search without a signed warrant and I will not answer anything else until I confer with my lawyer.”.

Even if you know you are completely innocent, it’s certainly not unheard of to get folded into the cascade of law enforcement actions.

Cops make errors of judgment during fluid situations. All. The. Time. You have cops in your family, I have many attorneys, whose job it is to disentangle people who get swept up.

[IPEsq]

I mean, shoot. We are horse people. What might you have in your vehicle/equipment/first aid at any given time? Syringes, duct tape, baling twine, maybe even a horse sedative. Tarp. Shovel? LOL is it farm life or Dexter?

[DownYonder]

I am bowing out of the sidebar conversation about vehicle searches by LE. Everyone is free to do as they please but I will continue to be polite and respectful of LE, as the vast majority of them are good people trying to do their jobs to protect the citizenry. I am a senior citizen with no criminal history, I do not do drugs or associate with those who do, and I truly have nothing to hide. If police ask to search my vehicle, I will assume they have good probable cause. And I will still be polite and respectful when they come up empty-handed - no smirking or smart aleck back talk. I do understand there are occasional instances where bad cops “plant” evidence, but I think the chances of them doing that to me are pretty slim. There is nothing to gain by targeting me, and again, their actions face scrutiny all the way up to and beyond their chain of command. Other folks may have good reason to not want to consent to a search and that is okay.

And @IPEsq - You forgot scissors; pocket knife, wire fence cutters, a hammer, pliers, whips, a lunge line, a big 50 pound salt block (is that enough to weigh down a human body?), maybe even an electric cattle prod. Very nefarious stuff indeed!

[sascha]

@DownYonder

I truly have nothing to hide.

@DownYonder

If police ask to search my vehicle, I will assume they have good probable cause.

What possible good probable cause could they have if you’re as squeaky clean as you profess?

[DownYonder]

@sascha

What possible good probable cause could they have if you’re as squeaky clean as you profess?

Uh - as mentioned earlier, perhaps my vehicle fits the description of one seen leaving the scene of a crime. No biggie, I will let them do their due diligence and then be on my merry way after they ascertain that I am not the droid they are looking for.

[Graymaresrule]

Maybe I’m a wimp but I was stopped because the sheriff misidentified the sticker on my car.
Nope, not going to allow a search. He spent enough time with my driver’s license and registration trying to justify the stop. When he handed my papers back to me he smirked “you have no idea why I stopped you do you?”

Signed, middle aged white woman in an old Isuzu Trooper

[sascha]

Uh huh. You just really don’t get it do you. That’s super sad. It’s the unwavering compliance of folks like you who make it so much harder for people who get accosted by law enforcement ‘droids’ for being a person of colour.

[sascha]

@Graymaresrule

Maybe I’m a wimp but I was stopped because the sheriff misidentified the sticker on my car.
Nope, not going to allow a search. He spent enough time with my driver’s license and registration trying to justify the stop. When he handed my papers back to me he smirked “you have no idea why I stopped you do you?”

Signed, middle aged woman

Same apart from the car. Mine was very distinctive. I have a pretty good feeling I got pulled over for those jackasses to prank their buddy who drove the only other matching very distinctive car in my area.

It was a hell of a wake up call for me and made my “respect” for law enforcement plummet. It won’t be earned back anytime soon. I think of that incident often and all the what ifs - what if I’d been a PoC in a different geography, etc. That sort of encounter was stressful enough for me. It would have been even more so for many other people.

[Arlomine]

It has all of the elements of a curb. How on earth is this not a curb?