HELP! 12 year old draft HEAVY on the bit.

[Saydea]

Good morning, I am reaching out hoping to find some guidance. I am a trainer and have dealt with several draft and draft crosses as well as ridden and schooled English for a while. however, English and drafts are not my specialty.

I currently have a 12 year old very green Percheron Cross. I have been riding him in a snaffle for 30 days now and he is doing well other than he pushes through the bit often. So I have started riding in a slow twist snaffle. He still pushes through and pulls on me. Otherwise I have no complaints with this gelding.

What would you do if he were in your barn? Just brainstorming here.
Thank you.

[alibi_18]

12yrs old and green means weak muscle tone. Leaning on the bit is a natural/expected evasion.

The fact that this is also a Draft cross horse doesn’t help the leaning problem. Not only is this horse quite weak, he’s big and probably doesn’t have the best conformation (downhill - big head - short stocky neck - weak hind)

Take your time, it will become lighter when he’s more fit. Draft horses take longer to get fit, older horses take longer to get fit; you have a combination of both!

[Saydea]

Thank you! Those are some fantastic points that I had thought of. He is lacking muscle tone for sure. I have been doing a lot of long trotting with him and riding on a loose reign. I ask for collection for a stride or two at a time, now that he is getting a clue. He responds to that fairly well.
My biggest issue is the halt. This horse is not a run away by any means but he will just plow right on through my hands in a halt. So I have been doing trot to walk transitions and then walk to halt transitions. If he wants to keep going (say to the gate or a buddy) he will just pull on through and then I have to do a one reign stop.
I am worried about building a habit of evasion. How do I go about getting him fit and NOT forming a habit?

[HannahsMom7]

I had a draft cross and ended up riding him in a Kimberwicke with a low port. I had talked to several Boston Horse Police Women and that is what they use on their mounts who were mostly drafts.

with a draft everything is slow, getting fit takes time. I rode endless 20-30 min a day to get my guy fit.

He didn’t like the single jointed snaffles at all, preferred the Kimberwicke and was a total terror in the double jointed snaffles. He did like the ones with a nut in the middle, but I had no control. he didn’t like the curb chain but only because it gave me some control to stop when he was naughty. I used it very loosely

[SillyHorse]

If possible, time your downward transitions so you are heading away from the gate/buddy.

[Synthesis]

Ah, yes, the “boulder down a hill” running away with you slowly routine. Its a draft cross classic. (look up the blog Riding With Scissors, it will make you laugh)

Bitting these guys can be a challenge, I have the same cross. Not just to remind them you are there but because their mouth shape is often a combination of thick tongue and low palate. You might want to try a straight bar snaffle (mullen) or a mullen tongue relief snaffle like Myler’s or the misnamed Sprenger Correction Snaffle. I use the Sprenger for training and it is fantastic. I had similar results with single joint and french link.

An alternative idea is to ride in an old fashioned short shank steel mullen pelham with double reins. Knot the curb reins so you have an emergency brake, school via the snaffle. I would hesitate to go directly to the kimberwick on green horse, someone did that with mine before I got her and its been tough to teach her forward and not hiding behind contact.

When you get the running away with slowly routine, halt and quietly back up a few steps. Then, halt and ask for trot. Reward the moment of forward and light, reward any lightening in downward transitions, backup and and push into trot on the boulder-like transitions.

Lots of patience, its SUPER hard for them to build the strength for this. There’s just so much horse to balance

[merrygoround]

The idea of working with a pelham with the curb rein used only when absolutely necessary is a more sensible solution than going to a Kimberwicke.

A single jointed snaffle has a nutcracker effect which many horses find uncomfortable. Using a double jointed snaffle with a peanut, or a mullen mouth, is far more comfortable.

Asking for collection at the stage of the game is very hard, as the horse is in no way strong enough for it.

Breaking down your your downward transitions into two stages is a good way to go. They do find downward transitions harder than upward.

[FatCatFarm]

What worked for me was going to a rubber mullen mouth bit which encouraged him to seek the contact and carry the bit, rather than leaning on it. We started with a Nathe, but he munched that thing in nothing flat. Then went to a Happy Mouth, and again, he munched pieces out of it. Have had the best luck with a Korsteel flexi-flavored mullen mouth: http://www.farmhousetack.com/korsteel-flexi-flavored-mullen-mouth-eggbutt-snaffle/

[Dressagelvr]

I agree that a Pelham is much better than the Kimberwicke, but only if you can comfortably use two reins. Otherwise, you’ll always be on the curb.

wouldn’t ask for any collection of this horse. He needs to be strong at working WTC before you try to collect or extend.

Also, try transitions on a circle when approaching the wall/side of arena.

[Synthesis]

[QUOTE=Dressagelvr;8776361]
I agree that a Pelham is much better than the Kimberwicke, but only if you can comfortably use two reins. Otherwise, you’ll always be on the curb.

wouldn’t ask for any collection of this horse. He needs to be strong at working WTC before you try to collect or extend.

Also, try transitions on a circle when approaching the wall/side of arena.[/QUOTE]

That’s why I suggest the curb reins knotted. This way the snaffle rein is the only one that needs to be held. Same idea as when starting a horse in a double bride. Knot the curb reins and ride with the snaffle, so the curb isn’t used.

Sometimes my dressage queen tendencies come in handy (though sometimes they are just annoying)

[Draftmare]

My draft cross mare has a pretty thick tongue and a low pallet, this made finding a bit for her very hard. Finally settled on a rubber d-ring snaffle. She finally settled into the contact and we were able to make progress towards collection. However, we then had to take off a few months here for a leg injury, and I feel like we are back to square one with the bit issues. Now she plows through the rubber d-ring like no tomorrow. Switched her to a three piece Boucher, and it seems to be going okay, though anything resembling collection has gone out the window which makes me sad.

Are Pelhams and Kimberwick bits even dressage legal? I am not 100% happy with the Boucher (and I don’t think she is super happy either), but there is no point in me switching to something not dressage legal.

[rememberthenight]

Have you done any groundwork recently? I find longeing with side-reins(Vienna reins are my preference) to help teach self-carriage without a rider can sometimes be very helpful.

[Boo]

Agree wit eh above esp re fitness. It takes longer and needs to be kept to keep drafts working well.

Also be aware that a lot of drafts like to think/process slower - least thats my experience. Ive found its taken time to train drafts to change what they are doing. ie my current draft mare will stay in shoulder in or on a trot circle for ages happily - shes gets in to that mindset thats what her job is so she does it. Changing too quickly between exercises without a lot of prep initially caused her a lot of worry and stress.

It may be the halting for your fellow is similar and compounded by the lack of fitness. It will just take him more time to process the change and then work out how to get his big green body to do it.

[Synthesis]

[QUOTE=Draftmare;8776764]
Are Pelhams and Kimberwick bits even dressage legal? I am not 100% happy with the Boucher (and I don’t think she is super happy either), but there is no point in me switching to something not dressage legal.[/QUOTE]
Are Pelhams/kimberwicks dressage legal? No.
But Pelhams, more so than Kimberwicks, can be a useful short term tool for some horses. Its like some people, myself included, training part-time in bitless or a hackamore. Sometimes the tool helps the horse learn and understand the question and rules of behavior better.

The risk is that the tool can become a crutch. If the skills are transferring? Great! If they are not transferring, then it may be the wrong tool or you may be over reliant on the tool.

Example: I started using a short shank hackamore for gallop training and discovered that my horse is straighter, lifts better and holds a better connection in it. So, I’ve been riding in it to build more strength and get her used to holding that connection/support in the front. When I ride in a bit, she finds out that push/lift is easier and is less afraid to use the bit for support/connection. And so the cycle continues… By the book? No. Is it working for her? Yes.

[2miniB]

I used to have this issue with a Haflinger I had. She was an ex-lesson horse, so she was used to being able to take advantage of her rider. She was very heavy in both a Kimberwicke and a double jointed snaffle. She wasn’t comfortable in a double, so I tried the next best thing. I tried her in a double jointed Pelham…the theory being she wouldn’t be able to lean on the bit due to the joints, I could ride mostly on the snaffle but have the curb if I needed it. Must use 2 reins to do this correctly. This and some flexions in hand eventually solved the problem. Enough so I could ride her in just a halter, since she had learned/developed strength to carry herself and also listen to my seat first. I would go back and forth between the pelham and halter, depending on where she was, since we didn’t compete.

My mare was very smart and a rather quick thinker. It just took a while to get her used to the idea that I wouldn’t let her take advantage of me like that. She’d also sometimes try to lean on me when I was cleaning her hooves, which is why I took the leaning on the bit as a ‘testing her rider’ situation. Didn’t try the hoof leaning thing very often once I got after her for that. But she would test every once and a while.

[Saydea]

Thank you all for the help. The “slowly rolling boulder” analogy is great! He is a very sweet gelding who is put together nicely and is willing. I am great-full for the suggestions as I did not want to build a bad habit or issue for his owner down the road.
We will continue our log trotting and lope (in straight lines). He is learning leg yields nicely and I hope that it along with your suggestions will lighten him up.

[Saydea]

Here is a link to view a pic of the gelding if you would like. Please excuse photo bomber!
http://s1268.photobucket.com/user/Saydea/media/Vance_zpst6xvcid5.jpg.html

[Unfforgettable]

I’ve always found long lining to be beneficial, both for increasing/building fitness and for lightening up a heavy horse.

[atlatl]

Transitions, transitions, and then more transitions.

[Draftmare]

[QUOTE=Saydea;8779368]
Here is a link to view a pic of the gelding if you would like. Please excuse photo bomber!
http://s1268.photobucket.com/user/Saydea/media/Vance_zpst6xvcid5.jpg.html[/QUOTE]

He is not nearly as hefty as I was picturing!

@atlatl;8779928

Transitions, transitions, and then more transitions.

Yep! Those. We do lots and lots of those.

@Unfforgettable;8779926

I’ve always found long lining to be beneficial, both for increasing/building fitness and for lightening up a heavy horse.

One of these days I want to try this.