Help, bucking horse after working with trainer.

Okay hear is the story. I hope I can get some good advice because I am so frustrated.

I have a Poa mare that is 11 years old. She is very spunky, but was my favorite horse because she was so trustworthy, never bucked or reared.
My only issue with her was slowing down, she always wants to go, but I enjoyed her spunk and happiness to play on the trail. She always made me feel safe.

Well, I decided to work with a trainer to do some showing in western pleasure and thought this would also teach her to slow up a little and be a little more controllable in the ring.

Well, after working with her to put her head down and putting a training fork on her, the horse started to get very irritated. She started kicking out her back legs and then to eventually bucking and now trying to throw me off.

I am so upset because now AND I cannot ride her at all and have tried to work with her for the last month to work out this bucking issue. I have her walking now, but If I try to get her in a trot she instantly starts bucking. I feel like I have ruined my wonderful trail horse and wish I had never started this.

I guess I am lookig for advice on how to work out this issue, I feel it is mental with her and maybe this was not a good idea with such an energetic horse to train for western pleasure showing or maybe the trainer worked too fast at trying to set her head and setting her pace at the same time. I am new at this so I don’t know. I just want my old happy horse back. Help!

My horse did something like this when we pushed her alittle too fast in learning to carry herself with her back up, butt engaged, head low, etc. She had “gotten it” overnight, it seemed, after several months of fighting it, but when we asked for this spectacular new movement at the canter as well as the walk and trot, Madame was offended. Highly, highly offended.

But your mare sounds like she’s madder at you than my mare was. :slight_smile: Do you now if maybe she was made sore by the new exercise? If so you could just get that worked out, and then get back in her good graces with maybe some groundwork and some zero-challenge (for her) trail rides?

In terms of slowing her down, could it be that if she figures out that ringwork is more than just plunking around in circles, she might decide that it is mildly interesting to listen to you and get to do different things in the ring? Once she’s really working hard, at interesting tasks that engage her brain, she might settle into it. FWIW, I find that lots of serpentines get my horse to stop rushing and start paying attention, without constantly tugging on her mouth. The other thing is that the speed could be be trying to evade pain from saddle fit. It doesn’t sound like your horse’s original speediness was pain-driven; it sounds like she just likes to go, but I’m just throwing it out there.

If she likes to go, forget the Western pleasure stuff (definitely don’t go back to that trainer), and let her be an Endurance star. :slight_smile:

hmmmm:

first and foremost concern, you’ve been working with a trainer, but you didn’t mention how many lessons and how much work on your own.

So if its only one or two, and you have a training fork on her, I’d be looking for a new trainer. After three months, we put sliding reins on to watch for 2-3 minutes longing, to see if my horse was resisting from ornery or a physical thing, so I understand that training equipment is needed buuuuut its a tool not a device.

Forcing the mare’s head down won’t get her working through, she is just going to want to resist. Just my HO

And the only other thing is incorporate as much ring work into your trails as possible, make them educational hacks not just meandering events. Don’t let her get away with bucking, its evasion and hopefully I’m going to assume you have ruled out all potential pain issues so you are just looking at training issues here.

Good luck!

This started happening after about the third lesson, and got worse for the next two until I couldn’t even get on her to walk her. I guess I should have trusted my gut and stopped the lessons but I trusted the trainer to help me work it out.

I have been riding for 20+ years but have never done any western pleasure showing, only strictly trail riding and endurance riding.

I have had someone look at her for pain and it seems that it is just a mental issue with her at this point.

You know, some horses just don’t like arena work, they don’t want to be forced to do endless slow endless circles going sloooooow, head forced down ennnndddddlllllessssssllllllyyyyyyyyyyy. Get my drift? I can’t say that I blame them. I bet if you took that “fork” off and headed onto the trail again you might find a happy camper.

I saw a App stallion turn into a dangerous, vicious biter after an arena training regime that he hated. Another young TB who was a doll to ride became a rearer and took to kicking the hunter trainer he had been sent to, whenever she came into his stall, all from over training and tedium. He was sold at meat price to a horse trader. After a few months of pasture R&R he was once again a sweet horse and became a lovely 4-H horse.

Perhaps the western pleasure thing should be set aside. Personally, I can’t stand that type of competition and I’ve worked for a couple of western show trainers. NO THANK YOU!

Bonnie s.

What are you doing w/her now? Still trying to ride her in the ring (w/p training I’m assuming has been nixed).

If this were my horse… a pleasant enough, forward=-thinking mare who enjoyed the trails adn GOING… and was now bucking due to arena work. I would most likely give her at elast 2 weeks off… maybe more. Then I would act like none of that had ever happened. I would get her old tack, the old halter, take her exactly to the tacking up place I used to use, do everything the way it USED to be done… and head out on the trails for, oh, probably the rest of her life. :wink:

She just might grow to trust you again after a couple months of this. sylvia

PS. Never, EVER, ask her for a headset again.

You didn’t specify how hard the horse is worked, how long the sessions are, how long she is expected to hold some kind of “head down frame” etc… Horses without proper musculature and mental preparedness can get extremely stressed over being made to travel in some pre-designed frame.

This is why I like the dressage training scale for educating horses. You first establish rhythm and suppleness before contact. And collection is the LAST thing to be asked of a horse. Not trying to offend anyone, but a lot of western trainers skip right to snubbing the nose down to the chest, pulling it to the knee, and working the horse in collection. I swear if I open up another western magazine and see a horse cantering with its nose on the riders knee I will SCREAM. :mad:

First I’d rule out any pain issues (tack feet, teeth). Then I would look at taking a bunch of steps backward and establishing good cadence and rythm, coupled with balance under saddle before ANY attempt is made at working in any kind of “frame” or slowing the horse down. I get the feeling that this poor mare was just plunked in a ring with a trainer and “made to get her head down and go slow.”

If you don’t get the horse out of that situation and fast, you are headed toward mega trouble. Even more trouble than you have right now.

You can do under-saddle suppling, and conditioning in an arena without pulling the head down and forcing the horse to slow. Most horses “go fast” because they are trying to balance. They get hyper, they get nervous, they get tense, and they go faster and faster and faster. By trying to force the mare to go slow, you are setting everybody involved up for failure.

Based on only the info. you’ve given, if it were my horse, I would ride the mare in a field or outdoor arena with a bunch of obstacles set up. Bridges, tarps, cavaletti, cones, fun stuff like mail boxes, tires, etc. Have her walk and negotiate the obstacles. Back around cones, etc. She will have to slow herself down to get through the obstacles. She will learn to watch her feet, and listen to her rider, without being pulled down into a frame and having a rider using the bit as a “go slow” cue. If she tries to trot, then just aim her at a line of cones or a bridge. Use your voice in a soothing tone - I always say “Slooooooooow.” Reach up with your hand and squeeze the crest of her neck. Just gently massage it. No patting or “Good girl! Good girl!” Just keep it slow and quiet. Sit deep in your seat with heels down, and BREATHE! Breathe deeply. Establish a ryhthm with your breaths.

Another trick I do for my fractious Arab is to just plain talk to her. I just hold a conversation like she’s an old friend. “Do you see that bird sitting in that tree? Wow, look how shiny his black feathers are.” And I also sing. She seems to just slow down and relax when she has some kind of deep connection to the rider. Some horses are high maintenance under saddle and some are not. Mine also is a dancy prancy, wanna run all the time type. No amount of pulling on the bit with a training fork would EVER slow that horse down, and I suspect yours is the same. If anything, the more bit pressure, the more upset she gets.

If you absolutely cannot ride the horse without a bucking fit, work her on the ground through the obstacles. Teach her cues from the ground. Just plain ole’ have FUN with her. Show her she can trust you and that you aren’t going to be forcing something on her that she is not comfortable with.

Having said all that though, if you do all these things, and the mare still gets pissy and starts bucking when you ask for a trot, I would discipline her. She has to learn that bucking is not acceptable. You are not forcing her to do something, you are not hurting her. You can’t let the bucking continue to become a spoiled habit. I think it definitely started for a good reason, but if all the kind/gentle tactics in the world doesn’t get her out of the habit, then you need to crack down hard on her little behind and make it hurt like a son of a biscuit when she does it.

I only go to discipline as the very LAST step. After you’ve taken careful inventory of any pain or medical issues, mental issues, etc. After you’ve changed the routine and done everything you can to sooth the mind and body. If the horse has learned that bucking gets the rider off, or gets you to quit, then she has to be trained that it is not acceptable.

But I think you might find that will never get to the point where you need to do any disciplining.

I’ve trained a whole lot of western pleasure horses, and never used a training fork, running martingale- anything but the basic saddle and bridle. And a number of them were VERY energetic, as in ‘hot.’

Yes, it could be mental, if the horse (in any discipline) has been shoehorned into doing something before it is mentally or physically ready. A western pleasure jog requires a lot of back and abdominal strength.

The fix for mental- go back to basics. Lose the training fork, permanently, you don’t need it. Walk, trot, lope, off contact, striving for relaxation and a steady (as in consistent, not necessarily slow) speed, and just maintaining that gait and speed until asked to do something else. They speed up, you bump bit gently to rate them to desired speed and release. Don’t be in a hurry. Don’t worry about headset, it will take care of itself once you have the basic steadiness of gaits. As you get the gaits stabilized, then you start asking for slower maintaining relaxation- this can be a combination of ‘bumping’ of bit/ release and circling.

If it is mental, well, you just have to work through the bucking, correct that, and go on and do something- anything- that can end you up on a positive note. Start by going back on the trails and trotting there, once you’ve got progress in a straight line, then try light arena work building on what you’ve done on the trails.

It could also be physical, simple as saddle that no longer fits. I have a horse whose back musculature changes a lot, and I can instantly tell when he has saddle fit issues, just because he carries his head higher.

Thank you Auventera two for the time spent on this response. I plan on working on a lot of this, this week. It has helped alot. She has had a week off now. And yes, she was definitely, as I realize now, pushed into this whole thing too fast. I guess I was just ignorant not to stop it sooner.

Thank you Fourh Mom for the response. I laughed my butt off. I needed that. And I am definitely headed out on the trail PERMANENTLY!

Well, don’t beat yourself up over it! You’ve done the best thing you know to do, and it’s not your fault. :slight_smile: I wrote that post out of personal experience, unfortunately. In high school I had a lovely QH mare that we got a 4 yr. old and completely untrained. My parents hired a western trainer to get her going well under saddle, since she was prone to outrageous bucking and bolting episodes. The short of it - the mare was really traumatized by that guy and it took years before anybody could canter her under saddle. His method of “breaking” her was to tie her head to her chest with a “tie down” and canter her until she “gave up.” It was going on for a few weeks before we figured out what was happening, but by then her mind was really fried. She’s eventually got over it a little bit, but still had major reservations about cantering. We eventually sold her to a lady who just looks at her in the pasture.

[QUOTE=busterwells;3989805]
This started happening after about the third lesson, and got worse for the next two until I couldn’t even get on her to walk her. I guess I should have trusted my gut and stopped the lessons but I trusted the trainer to help me work it out.

I have been riding for 20+ years but have never done any western pleasure showing, only strictly trail riding and endurance riding.

I have had someone look at her for pain and it seems that it is just a mental issue with her at this point.[/QUOTE]

OK – first: the trainer is a moron. Sorry if that is blunt, but you just don’t slap a set of rings on a horse (training fork) and force their head down. When a horse’s head is down they need to use their back more, which can lead to all sorts of mental & physical resistance if their muscles aren’t up to the task.

Imagine you took a 30-40 year old woman who walked around the block occasionally and suddenly force her to do advance ballet movement? Think you might have a problem?

And who was the “someone” who looked at her for pain? A vet? A equine chiropracter? Your neighbor? This same idiot trainer?

I had a friend who had THREE vets examine her horse for back pain – they all cleared him. Five trainers had this horse and could not stop him from doing what he did – which was random uncontrolled bucking & bolting when he was being ridden. TWO YEARS this went on, till finally the horse went down one day during a training session. Turns out two vertebrae had pinched some nerves – horse had to be put down. Meanwhile he was in horrid pain every day.

I’d be willing to bet your former faithful friend is HURTING and she’s trying to tell you that. There is an easy way to find out:

  1. stop riding her for afew weeks. For the first week, give bute once a day. Turn her out in a large pasture.
  2. after 2-4 weeks, bute her up, use a good, well-fitting saddle, toss away the “training fork” and take her out on the trail. If she goes ok for you, you have your answer.

Oh – and if the trainer can’t set a head with a simple snaffle, good hands and alittle patience, they aren’t much of a trainer IMHO.

Sorry about being so blunt, but these kind of yahoos drive me nuts!

Kyzteke,

I think you have nailed it very bluntly, and accurately.

The mare is sore.

Aventura-totally agree!

Rule out pain first, with this ‘trainer’ not even considering to get the horse to use it’s hind end, only throwing it on the forehand, most likely the horses back has become sore and painful. From not building muscle tone, only breaking it down. I would get a massage therapist out, and do some lunging to build the back up again. Check for signs of pain. It could’ve been an ill fitting saddle there too.

Thank you

[QUOTE=MassageLady;4007555]
Aventura-totally agree!

Rule out pain first, with this ‘trainer’ not even considering to get the horse to use it’s hind end, only throwing it on the forehand, most likely the horses back has become sore and painful. From not building muscle tone, only breaking it down. I would get a massage therapist out, and do some lunging to build the back up again. Check for signs of pain. It could’ve been an ill fitting saddle there too.[/QUOTE]

Thnk you to everyone that has replied to me. I am having a chiropractor out soon and would have never considered the back pain if it weren’t for this site and the responses I have gotten back. She was looked at for other pain sites but not for the back. I will also have someone check my saddle also.
Thank you so so so so much.

[QUOTE=busterwells;4007913]
Thnk you to everyone that has replied to me. I am having a chiropractor out soon and would have never considered the back pain if it weren’t for this site and the responses I have gotten back. She was looked at for other pain sites but not for the back. I will also have someone check my saddle also.
Thank you so so so so much.[/QUOTE]

After alot of years and some rather eye-opening events, I’ve come to the conclusion that a great deal of misbehavior u/s is pain/discomfort related.

People tend to jump to psychological “reasons” for alot of horse misbehavior, but I think it’s often times physical, and I’ve tried to teach myself to look there first.

Try rest and bute. Like I said, it’s an easy way to tell very often. Bute is not evil – it’s just like you & I taking Tylenol or ibuprophen (Motrin) when you are sore – it’s a anti-inflammatory and from the same class as both those drugs.

You don’t want to over do it and you certainly don’t want to fill the horse full of bute then ask it to perform at a high level, but what do you do for yourself if you strain your back? Rest and tylenol (or at least, that’s what the doc tells you to do).

Horses are no different.

I can think of dozens of cases where horses did all sorts of bad behavior from bolting, bucking, rearing, etc. that was traced to pain. Now, the tricky part is that if a “behavior” starts as a response to pain, then it CAN develop into habitual behavior even after the body has healed because of an anticipation of pain.

So I think as soon as a behavior like this manifests itself, it’s a good idea to really investigate physical issues immediately and to give the horse some time off from that activity (riding) until you feel like you’ve ‘cleared’ the idea of physical pain.

Thanks for the help

Chiropractor coming out tomorrow. I hope that this is what the solution will be. I tried to ride her a couple of days ago with the same results. I have deducted that she must be in some kind of pain. I will let everyone know how this works out.

[QUOTE=busterwells;4044589]
Chiropractor coming out tomorrow. I hope that this is what the solution will be. I tried to ride her a couple of days ago with the same results. I have deducted that she must be in some kind of pain. I will let everyone know how this works out.[/QUOTE]

Have you had a vet look at her? Have you medicated her for pain? Is the chiropractor also a vet?

I hope it works for you, but I would hate for your vet/chiropractor to be just as accomplished as your trainer was/is.

Good luck…please keep us posted.

Vet 1st, relax and have fun, go back to what worked for you

before this all happened. I would rule out pain with the vet first because maybe your horse has issues not addressed by chiropractic (and I really respect my chiropractor BTW). A horse can have back issues related to hock issues for example which might require vet care vs. chiro.

While I personally don’t like the look of western pleasure, if trained properly and the horse carries itself and is happy, it’s fine with me.

Your horse may just have been pushed too fast to do something it doesn’t understand, doesn’t enjoy and/or found painful. Now my biatache QH mare does not like the arena much (irritable, sluggish gaits) BUT open up the arena gates and rides THROUGH the arena up and down the back driveway, in the pasture, up and down the street?? Totally different horse…i.e., ears perked, forward gaits, “we are actually GOING somewhere” attitude.

So while I don’t put up with attitude in the arena, I also respect that this horse really prefers going somewhere and I incorporate that into my rides. We use the arena for figures, but we also practice our dressage skills doing things like gate opening, hill work, trotting nice round circles around the pasture trees, waiting and/or backing up at the open gates to teach patience, team pen the minis (which they hate as way beneath their dignity) etc…that might help channel the forward energy of your horse into something interesting and fun. If your horse is intelligent and forward, you’ve got a lot to work with that you can refine without giving it a desk job…

I had one trainer call it “destination riding”, have a goal in mind that you plan on reaching together and usually the horse feels that intent. Someone else (might be Chris Cox) said “ride your eyes”. Then there was an article in Western Horseman this month where the trainer (forget his name) wrote that when horses are exposed to something new, they go through fear, curiosity and then confidence; sounds like your horse got stuck in the fear and maybe pain stage from being rushed and restricted and needs to rebuild some trust.

Good luck!

Has anyone ever had a chiropractor say their horse is fine? :wink:

Most resentful type behavior is created by poor training methods. Unfortunately, once the horse loses its trust in a rider, you really have to make clear rules to get your relationship back.

No, it is not the horse’s fault things go south, but even so, they can’t use unacceptable behavior like rearing and bucking. BOTH of those have to be clearly corrected by sending the horse forward - with no backtalk. The horse MUST instantly respond forward from the leg, but the rider may NOT restrict the face. That door has to be 100% open for a long time to develop trust again.

If the horse is moving freely forward on the lunge, with tack, and not lame, and there is no soreness to palpation, then it is not a “physical” pain issue. The behavior probably started due to pain, but now it is a learned behavior.