If you already have a family attorney who’s a horseman, it probably won’t cost you much to talk to him, show him your ad/videos and allay your fears. If you didn’t already have him, I would have recommended just not responding. It’s going to cost the buyer more time, effort and upfront $$ to find an attorney to listen to her, let alone take her case. That would probably put her off pursuing this. Any lawyer worth their salt would realize there isn’t much to her claims. Unless she has oodles of money and this was a VERY expensive horse, she will come out with the short straw.
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Any notion of a buy back…
it sounds like they untrained the horse and you are going to have to spend time rehabbing it. any issue from tack related pain improper feeding and improper riding likely took its toll.
If indeed any of it is true
If I had just had a knee replacement the last thing I would be doing is taking on a new horse. And she now considers herself “handicapped?”
what a tonne of crap
sad thing is, this is probably a nice type QH (?) that almost anyone would love to get their hands on. A Good Old Joe in the making
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I would not even deal with this person directly - IMHO, she sounds unstable. I mean, anyone that comes at you (or anyone else for that matter) - well, something ain’t right. She is using a 16 ton weight to kill a gnat. Anybody that starts off with that much overkill knows they are in the wrong. And why? Get your horse back before she damages him any further. What a rotten way to start your day. Plus, poor horse.
I, too , have a story for you. The last barn I boarded at bred and sold half-arabs. They had a couple come out and look at one of their horses. Couple told sellers that they were expert riders and purchased one of the horses. They did not ride the animal themselves (which would have been a red flag to me but whatevs) but took horse on the spot. Months later, sellers start hearing tales of how this horse is misbehaving and how the people are acting. They say nothing and opt to wait for buyers to contact them. Well, eventually they do and it was your story all over. Horse was not trained, horse was dangerous, etc etc. Buyers took horse back, refunded money and had their trainer work with the poor horse. Turned out buyers had no idea about anything horse and let the horse do what it wanted, refused advice from anyone who tried to help them - it was a train wreck. Horse was eventually re-trained and sold to a lovely home and now is on the Competitive trail circuit doing well.
I hope all works out well for both of you. Not her, I mean - you & the horse. :yes:
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Even without the videos, I would go this route. Be sure to let her know you will be counter-suing for legal costs when she loses.
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Do NOT contact this nut in any way. Let your lawyer do that. This is what lawyers are for. I am betting she disappears after she realizes you’ll take this all the way. I personally think that if she was for real, she’d have had an attorney contact you instead of playing mind games.
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Not addressing the OP’s specific case, but I do think the issue of “hidden defects” related to horse sales is an interesting problem.
Apparently, Uniform Commercial Code provides for warranties and implied warranties over the sale of goods by merchants, or agents acting as merchants on behalf of a non-merchant. Yet the UCC also provides for disclaimer of warranties such as provided under “§ 2-316. Exclusion or Modification of Warranties.” https://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/2/2-316
Hypothetically, imagine a horse with a “hidden defect” such as a bone cyst of the hock. The imaginary horse is asymptomatic, and the seller is completely unaware of the existence of the defect. Seller trains the horse to be a trail horse and markets the animal as a trail horse. The horse is sold to a buyer for $5000 and 9 months later the horse goes lame.
The Questions…
Was the horse sold under a premise of implied mechantablity of fitness as a trail horse, by virtue of a sales ad advertising the horse as a trail horse?
If the seller simply writes the words “AS IS” on a bill of sale, is that sufficient to fully disclaim the implied merchantability of fitness as a trail horse. Or must the bill of sale expressly disclaim any warranty as to the fitness of the horse for use as a trail horse.
How can a seller justify the advertisement of a “trail horse” knowing that they will require to buyer to except the horse under a disclaimer that the horse actually “may not be a trail horse”. Does this type of dealing not raise a question of false advertising?
Next consider the value of a horse with a “hidden defect”. The seller is not aware of the defect, yet the defect does exist. Thus how is the "true"value of the defective horse to be measured? Is the true value that of a non-defective horse, or is the true value one that includes the hidden defect?
We might say it’s buyer beware, but if the buyer paid for a non defective horse, and receives a defective horse, does the seller deserve to keep the proceeds from the sale of a sound horse, if the sale was factually a sale of a defective horse?
All parties may not have been aware that a defect existed, but unless such defects as bone cysts are expressly addressed and agreed to in a sales contract, does the simply "AS-IS "or even an inclusion of “WITH ALL FAULTS”, provide sufficient disclaimer to supersede actual claims made by advertising a horse as a trail horse?
Another concept that interests me is that of “unjust enrichment”.
If the seller keeps the sales proceeds for the hypothetically defective horse, does the seller “deserve” to retain the full value of a non-defective horse, if in fact the horse sold turns out to be defective? Has the seller been unjustly enriched?
If anyone knows of any case law that might address the above hypothetically type of situation, I think it would be interesting to read.
If you substitute a car for this horse and make the issue something hidden wrong with the car that the seller did not know about, the car is sold ‘as is’ - I think you have your answer.
The seller can not know about what they do not know about and there is a risk that something (the car or the horse) will break.
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Good advice above, but will add my happy ending story from about 20 years ago:
Sold horse for client site unseen to buyer about 1500 miles away. Buyer has video, pays for PPE (including having vet watch me ride green horse bareback, in town, with a halter and lead to verify temperament. A first for me). Horse is green (about 60 days under saddle); sold as green. Low price.
Horse arrives to Buyer’s residence. Buyer loves horse. 7 months later, I get an email that I suck, horse is crazy, trainer said horse is unfixable. After a few moments to catch my breath, I send kind emails back, investigating. Horse is bucking and bucks people off. I recommend another trainer, citing that while horse was green, he had a very willing, people pleasing demeanor. Luckily, Buyer finds a new trainer. Two months later I get another email. Horse is doing very well, back to the kind boy he was when they got him. They love him. Years go by, and they keep me posted on his competative achievements. He becomes their heart horse. Unfortunately, he died too young in a freak pasture wreck. We are still in touch. They’ve asked me to find them another just like him.
Of course, I still recommend getting an attorney involved. Yours might not turn out this well. But it might!
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alterhorse: You asked about case law in this matter. You might be able to find a case brought by Tom Selleck (yes, him). He had purchased a jumper for his daughter. Horse had a problem. He got his $80k back. I believe the case was heard in CA. Maybe, around ten years ago or so. It was written up in mags. You might be able to find it that way or google his name and horse lawsuit or something like that.
Yes, ‘as-is’ is a term sellers use for horses, cars, houses, etc. But, false advertising can trump that clause. That certainly doesn’t seem to be the case here. OP: I hope you’ll give us the update when you’ve settled this matter. And, I hope your horse is ok.
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I can’t help but wonder HOW in the h— so many people starve so many horses when a horse is an animal that will literally eat all day if allowed. Takes a special brand of stupid.
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Spoke with Lawyer this morning, forwarded him all Correspondance and exchanges between buyer and myself (from first contact showing interest in the horse, to yesterdays message). He agrees with my concern for the horse, and once he is done going over all of the exchanges. He said he will do the responding when it comes time to try and get the horse back. In his eyes “A ‘Dangerous’ horse is not worth more than meat price, they are give aways if anything”
So now i am just waiting to hear his ideas after going over everything.
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I am so happy you got her back, even if she was never “Perfect” again she was safe and cared for.
I really hope my guy is at least a bit cared for, he was no easy keeper but not a hard either. He just stayed in the middle weight wise.
The general issue of aggressive customers is pervasive.
I had had a customer at an appliance store try to tell us the garage doors our recommended contractor installed were opening spontaneously in the middle of the night and exposing their house … Customer pitched an unholy fit and eventually got All monies, for 2 garage doors + installation, refunded.
Recently, a friend tack store owner had a customer melt down on her because the custom boots she ordered did not fit. Customer had REFUSED to get new measurements before ordering said boots. Insisting that old measurements would be juuuussst fiiiiiiine… Friend had to refund $ and tell customer they never wanted to hear from them again.
Extreme post purchase aggression just seems to be “The Way” that some folks move thru the world. Most people want to avoid conflict. And these bullies are pretty good at using storm trooper like aggrieved aggression to get their way.
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I would bet that these people have never actually contacted a lawyer at all and made a lot of accusations and used a “we better hear from you or else approach” to see if you would pony up and they could be rid of a horse they don’t deserve and get money and free transportation out of you. If you hear from them again the best response is the name and number of your lawyer. I sincerely hope you can save your horse from these people. Good Luck!!!
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Agreed. I bet when they get a response from an attorney and not the OP, they will sh!t themselves and disappear.
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Thanks. I’ll see if I can find the text on that case. It sounds interesting.
I think the language in the UCC under 2-316, does frame the “as-is” sale as being subject to the specific circumstances that led to the sale.
2-316 excerpt (emphasis mine): …(a) unless the circumstances indicate otherwise, all implied warranties are excluded by expressions like “as is”, “with all faults” or other language which in common understanding calls the buyer’sattention to the exclusion of warranties and makes plain that there is no implied warranty; …
I think it interests me because both in the case of personal property sales, and horse sales. it’s not uncommon to see ads that begin with a claim that a thing is working fine, or a horse that “is” quite, or brave, broke, easy to ride, well behaved, a good mover, has potential… etc…etc…
If, the claims in an ad are actually circumstances that led to a sale. I don’t see why it should be assumed the relevancy of those circumstances are fully extinguishable by a simple inclusion of the words “as is”, written in a “stand alone”, “all encompassing” manner, within a sale contract.
To fully create an as-is contract, shouldn’t it be necessary that the contract also have a big bold lettered disclaimer part that says something like… This sale is an “as-is” sale, and all previous claims or implied claims as to the merchantability, or fitness for any particular purpose, are simply the sellers opinions, and not to be relied upon by the buyer when making the decision to purchase?
But if a seller does add a fully “spelled out” declaimer, then how are the claims in the ad to be viewed from a truthfulness in advertising standpoint? Are they false claims if the seller has a premeditated intension to extinguish their genuineness through a contract of sale?
Shouldn’t the the ad simply contain a statement that the item or animal is being sold as-is, and the ad worded in a way that avoids the making of claims that the seller is not willing to stand behind?
Was there a Bill of Sale executed between you and the buyer? It is standard to have language in there such as “they are buying horse as is”, “Have had the opportunity to have a PPE and are satisfied with the results”, “have been given the opportunity to try the horse and have/have not chosen to do so, and again Buying AS IS”, etc.
People will try to get what they can after the fact, but I have found many buyers to grossly mislead you as to their abilities so it is best to try to protect yourself as much as you can.
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Evening update, lawyer is sending a certified letter in the AM. Not sure on the legal jargon used in said letter, but general “stop it or talk to me” is the idea. Also stated that if she wants to get rid of horse I am willing to buy back at just above meat price.
He said he is pretty sure this will scare her off, but even if she does take it farther, she would hardly stand a chance.
we just have to wait and see now.
just hope for Dobbins sake that he is okay.
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Thanks for keeping us updated. Sending jingles to you and Dobbin!
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I would get past this quickly. Imagine her in a plexiglass box having her tantrum, and imagine that it doesn’t affect you at all. Then decide what you want to do for the good of the horse. This isn’t about whether or not you respect her; it’s her desperate move to get her money back. I doubt you owe her anything, but think of what will happen to the horse and do whatever you’re comfortable with. I wouldn’t communicate with her with any emotion but would email and say that you will buy horse back for $morethankillbuyer and she can deliver horse to you. You can hope for a swift end to the drama this way and also protect the horse.
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