Help! Disrespectful in stall...

[taybee1]

Hello,I am a first-time horse owner of an ex-race horse if that helps at all. My mare is perfect but when I go into her stall she’ll come up to me to see if I have any treats then make a circle (facing her butt towards me) pin her ears for a few seconds before putting them back up and sitting in the back of the stall. How do I fix this?

Please do not recommend round pen work, she is marvelous to lunge and respects my space and my cues. But, she is on stall rest until Thursday so no round pen work now.

She doesn’t threaten to kick me but I don’t like the fact that she turns her butt towards me just in case she randomly decides she DOES want to kick me. I am a first time horse-owner and have had no problems with this horse besides her leading (which I fixed today and yesterday and now she leads like a charm)

Please help me work this out of her, what have your experiences been like? I’m considering getting a trainer to help but, we don’t have one at the barn I’m at 24/7 and the soonest one could get out is in a week or longer and I need to fix this ASAP.

I don’t have a problem with smacking her on the butt, in fact when she turned her butt towards me and pinned her ears i smacked her on the butt with the end of the lunge whip I was holding (I was right next to the gate of the stall so if something happened I had an escape) and she ran off to the other end of the stall. My concern is that I scared her instead of telling her “Hey! Don’t turn your butt towards me” I don’t want her to be scared of me, I want her to respect me and not turn her butt towards me but I still want her to be able to love on me with out having to be nervous I’ll smack her, I just don’t want her to develop a kicking habit that puts me in danger while bonding with her.
I will be honest, I think there is some fear in me but this started before I started being hesitant about her butt being towards me.
I’m scared I’m going to ruin her, I don’t know everything and don’t have as much help as I’d like, I spend most of my free time trying to learn everything I can to make sure I don’t mess her up…

[S1969]

What exactly are you doing in her stall - feeding, catching her, cleaning it, just hanging out?

Your comment about “while I’m bonding with her” is what makes me wonder. Bonding needs to be mutual; a horse turning their butt to you means they want to be left alone. Which might be ok, depending on the situation - e.g. if you’ve already ridden, and groomed, and now want to “hang out” in your horse’s stall, I don’t think it’s all that unusual that they would prefer you were not there so they can rest, eat, etc. If that’s when she is presenting this behavior I might suggest you just leave her alone.

But, if she turns around when you go to halter her to bring out to work, this is a different situation and I would deal with it differently.

Generally speaking I would not bring a lunge whip into a stall, but that’s just me.

[taybee1]

@S1969

What exactly are you doing in her stall - feeding, catching her, cleaning it, just hanging out?

Generally speaking I would not bring a lunge whip into a stall, but that’s just me.

I had the lunge whip wrapped up and outside of the stall to begin with. She does it whenever I’m in there especially with haltering and cleaning. Feeding she doesn’t but that’s because she just wants her grain. I want to do this as simple and easy as possible with out having to tap her with anything so she respects me but doesn’t think I’m going to hurt her.

I’ve never really had a trainer that taught me ground work so I’ve always come to the forums or googled many different ways to solve something and they’ve always worked. But, I just cant seem to find a way to solve this with out having to tap her on the bum to get a reaction and if that’s what it takes, okay, as long as I know how to do it safely and effectively I’m okay with it.

[Highflyer]

So when you go in the stall are you able to immediately catch her and put a halter and lead rope on her and then give her a treat? Putting the rope around her neck first if necessary? Or does she turn away right away? If you can catch her and then give her a treat, do that and eventually it will likely fix itself. Using a lunge whip in a stall is not a great idea for a horse on stall rest or for an inexperienced handler. You don’t necessarily need a natural horsemanship expert, just someone who knows what they’re doing and has good reflexes. If it’s easier, leave a breakaway halter on for a few days or weeks while this gets resolved.

[taybee1]

@Highflyer

So when you go in the stall are you able to immediately catch her and put a halter and lead rope on her and then give her a treat?

Yes, she usually greets me at the stall but once she sees a halter she wants to turn and walk away. I wouldn’t call her food motivated unless carrots are involved :lol: otherwise she really dislikes treats. I see her again in a few hours to feed her and will try it tomorrow. I typically don’t have any issues at all when she’s eating, she’s not defensive over her food in any way only when she sees a halter. Thanks for the advice, I really appreciate it. I will keep the lunge whip outside of the stall. Thank you, again.

[Highflyer]

Just make sure to catch her and then give the treat so she doesn’t learn to grab it and turn away. Food motivated is a good thing!

[IPEsq]

How are you walking up to her? How are you presenting the halter? It’s hard to tell on the Internet if she’s telling you to piss off or if she’s insecure or scared or something else. It is an aggressive move but it’s also a defensive move, but I’m not sure I’d always correct her by smacking her in the butt. If defensive you are just reinforcing how much pressure you are putting on her just by being there. If aggressive, well, I don’t really want to piss off an already pissed off horse when her butt is facing me!

For example, my horse is an in your pocket (literally with his face) kind of guy. But when he had to get an oral medication every morning, he knew when you came in his stall with the halter first thing in the morning it was medicine time so he’d hide his head in the back corner and keep swinging his butt to keep you and nasty medicine away. I could not get firm, smack his butt, etc. He was already worked up. I had to coax him out and make my presence not so awful. I started giving him peppermints before and after the medicine. Then just after. He’d reluctantly let me halter him, squirt medicine, wait for treat, unhalter, then he’d run to the back of his stall making gaggy faces. At which point even though he would turn away from me, I left him alone for a while. Same as when my cat is mad for getting a pill, I don’t chase her around trying to pet her to say sorry. I leave her alone.

Anyway, long story short, it may be her who feels more threatened in this situation. A lot of mares are not very touchy-feely so may be less likely to be in your face to begin with. But she may not be mean; just maybe insecure. So rather than chase her, you may need to step back and give her some space when she goes to turn away and acknowledge the smaller signs of stress she might have already shown to you. Change your routine some to diffuse the stress. If she doesn’t much like treats, find out what she does like.

[taybee1]

@IPEsq

Anyway, long story short, it may be her who feels more threatened in this situation. A lot of mares are not very touchy-feely so may be less likely to be in your face to begin with. But she may not be mean; just maybe insecure. So rather than chase her, you may need to step back and give her some space when she goes to turn away and acknowledge the smaller signs of stress she might have already shown to you. Change your routine some to diffuse the stress. If she doesn’t much like treats, find out what she does like.

Thanks so much for that, you’re right she has been a bit stressed especially being on stall rest until thursday, I know I’d get crabby that way too. I’ll work with her with more positive reinforcement where when she does come to me she’ll get a treat instead of when she turns her back on me a tap on the bum. I’d prefer it that way anyways, I’ll do it tonight when I go see her and let you guys know how it goes.

I apologize for all of this mess I unloaded, I was never taught ground work and had to teach myself because the trainers here don’t bother to train anything but in saddle and their specialty. I’ve had to go around and teach myself the basics in saddle and everything on the ground so I’m still learning.

I can’t thank all of your advice enough, it truly means a lot…

[IPEsq]

You might find this reading interesting if you haven’t seen it already

https://annablakeblog.com/2017/05/19/calming-signals-your-response/

[dungrulla]

Honestly your post concerns me for a couple reasons.

The first of these reasons is you talk like someone without a whole lot of horse experience. I can’t put my finger on why, I just sort of sense it with your phrasing.

First time horse owner, okay. With an ex-racehorse, alright. Which they are training themselves…enormous red flag. I was you like three years ago. First time horse owners should not own hot, sensitive ex-racehorses, they should own steady-eddie 20 year olds who have been there and done that. I know this because my first horse was an ex-racehorse, and I still can’t ride him, and even if I COULD ride him, I wouldn’t because I now have the knowledge to know I am far, FAR too green.

In fact many, MANY people on the forums told me that I was too green and that this horse was going to hurt me if I kept trying to ride it, and several of them are even in this thread. Guess what? They were right! I’m very lucky I was not seriously injured in my misadventures with this horse, who I still own mostly because he is too physically challenged to ever be a riding horse, and I’m okay with that–he would never be an appropriate mount for me. I now own two steady-eddies that I can actually ride and am much happier.

This doesn’t necessarily mean you need to get rid of the horse. It does mean you need to definitely hire a trainer to work with you if you have any hope of succeeding here without one of you becoming badly injured.

[taybee1]

@dungrulla

This doesn’t necessarily mean you need to get rid of the horse. It does mean you need to definitely hire a trainer to work with you if you have any hope of succeeding here without one of you becoming badly injured.

Hello, I used awkward wording in my original post, she is my first horse that I am on my own with, all my other horses have had the assistance of very hands-on trainers that did a lot of the work for me.
She is not directly off the track, she was with a trainer who worked with her before I got her. She is not as green as it seems.
I have spoken with a trainer and agree that having one would be best, and I am working with her specifically because she shows me how to do something and then has me do it and perfects my technique.

Now, I called myself a first time horse owner because this time opposed to the others I’m doing all the work. I bought my horses through my trainers so they had already had a vet set for them, insurance, board, and everything else. This horse came to me from a different state so all that was up to me.
I don’t know everything, but I know enough to feel comfortable handling her. I wouldn’t get an anxious horse that still needed a lot of work, I just needed advice and I thank you for trying to help out but she is not too much for me.

By the way, earlier I was just nervous because she's been quite anxious the last few days. She's settled down and has stopped turning her butt towards me in her stall. I'm guessing it was probably from her injury a few days ago and she thought I was coming to put more ointment on her wounds as she guessed the same thing tonight when I actually had to. She was rewarded with a carrot for standing still and letting me fix her up because she is unfortunately quite sensitive to those areas. 

I struggle with anxiety so these things tend to freak me out a bit when I don’t have an easy solution in sight, I think she likely picked up on that. I’m grateful to have her in my life as she takes such good care of me. It’s likely why I overreacted earlier. Thanks for all the replies, you’re all marvelous and it’s clear you have the best of intentions with your posts.
I also got “lucky” with a mareish mare.

[S1969]

Sounds like the stall rest may have had something to do with things, and also that a lot of horses really don’t want to go to work, if they can avoid it. I agree with the posts above that suggest working with treats to get her to turn to you for haltering, and then I would work on being businesslike and efficient with her.

I liked having a trainer work with me to ride my horses because their standards were higher than my own for many things. I might be willing to say “ok, that was pretty good” and they would say “no, that wasn’t straight” or “no, she stops when you ask, not when she wants - do that again”. It kept me honest, and that is what horses need - if you aren’t clear, they will assume what they gave you was good enough, and do it again. It can change a horse pretty quickly if the rider allows it to be disrespectful, lazy, barge-y, etc.

Also, much depends on your horse’s temperament. For many horses, being done is all the reward they need, and they don’t want to interact. I have a mare like this - she hates grooming, she is not cuddly, she was a broodmare and doesn’t really have a great work ethic. For her, the best approach is quiet, firm, and done. I have another mare that is reactive when ridden and needs a more responsive ride…and sometimes some praise and encouragement, and sometimes a push to give her confidence. I interact with her very differently.

A trainer on the ground can help you figure a lot of that out so that you’re not second guessing yourself.

PS…in my experience, all mares are “mareish”. LOL. Just in different ways. So I’m not really sure it’s because they are mares, or if it’s just personality differences.

[Posting_Trot]

I’d be concerned too if a horse turned its butt on me consistently when I was in the stall with the horse. And you won’t have time, if the horse decides to kick, to get out of the stall. If a horse decides to kick, it’s already happened before you can process the cues.

A horse turning its butt to you is warning you. Heed it.

For now, I’d recommend the following: Put a halter and leadrope on the horse before you enter the stall. As you enter the stall hold onto the leadrope and don’t let the horse turn. If you need your hands free to clean the stall, put the horse in another stall while you work in hers. If you can’t do that, put some hay down for her to keep her oriented in the correct, non-threatening direction.

I wouldn’t hit a horse in the butt when the horse is in a position to kick me. Bad idea.

She may be doing it because she’s on stall rest and she’s just not happy about it. If, after the stall rest is over she doesn’t do it anymore, problem solved. If she continues to do it, then you should check in with a trainer who specializes in ground work.

[taybee1]

@Posting Trot

I’d be concerned too if a horse turned its butt on me consistently when I was in the stall with the horse. And you won’t have time, if the horse decides to kick, to get out of the stall. If a horse decides to kick, it’s already happened before you can process the cues.

Thanks for the advice! I’ve already asked a trainer to help me out and just keep an eye on what I’m doing to see where I need improvements… she is no longer turning her bum to me as of today and last night but, she also got turnout for the first time in a few days (Yay!)and was overall much happier.

Also huge thanks for understanding, I was beginning to feel crazy for thinking her bum being turned towards me was bad!
I started with the treats last night and everything is fine again, ironically she refuses to eat any treats but carrots which is a plus for me, cheap, healthy, and yummy!

Thanks again

[taybee1]

Hello, I have another update which is good and just terrible news.

Turns out me AND the stall rest weren't the problems at all. There was someone at my barn taking every chance she could get to smack her. The situation has been dealt with and I'm moving my horse to a new barn on my own terms. I am beyond furious, here I was worried that I had done something poorly, was sending mixed signals, or simply just doing something that threatened her when it wasn't me at all. She was just scared I was going to go in there and beat her! We are working very hard to get her comfortable again and work to trust people again. Luckily she's been okay with my family and great with me, she knows we wouldn't do it but I don't blame her for being scared. Thanks for all the tips she's a very happy girl with her carrot slices and is on the road to embrace her full potential.

[TheHunterKid90]

I make a habit to never allow a hose to have its butt turned to me when I enter the stall, so if they are not facing me when I open the door I will stand in the door way and click until they step forward to at least the point where I’m parallel with the shoulder and they are looking at me.
since your mare initially faces you and then turns away I would approach her shoulder, touch or pet her shoulder and then slide my hand up and put my lead rope around her neck. Then halter her. Now that I’m in control I will give her slack and if she goes go turn away I will simply bring her nose back to me. Rinse and repeat.
if I was doing something that required both hands I would just halter her as described and then tie her in the stall. As I worked around her I would click to make her yield her haunches back and forth as needed .
This is what I do with every 2 year old, 10 year old, 18 year old broodmare. They all have to respect your space and pay attention when they’re in your presence.

[Posting_Trot]

Did the last update posted by the OP go poof? I think it did. Either that or I’m delusional–always a possibility!

I believe that the OP posted that she had found out that someone at the barn had been hitting the horse on a regular basis, and that the hitting had probably contributed to this problem.

But the OP (I suppose) deleted that post, so who knows?

[DarkBayUnicorn]

@Posting Trot

Did the last update posted by the OP go poof? I think it did. Either that or I’m delusional–always a possibility!

I believe that the OP posted that she had found out that someone at the barn had been hitting the horse on a regular basis, and that the hitting had probably contributed to this problem.

But the OP (I suppose) deleted that post, so who knows?

Correct. But it is now poofed.

[jetsmom]

Why is she on stall rest? Is it possible to take her out to hand graze? That would make her look forward to you coming into stall. Be sure to halter, then give treats. So she looks forward to being haltered.