Help Me Understand - Isabell Werth

[CanteringCarrot]

@staceyk

From a biomechanics perspective I’d think it would be better to carry a bit of fluffy weight below the belt as opposed to the “apple shape.” I’m forever trying to figure out what makes one person excel at dressage/equestrian sports while another struggles.

Yes and no. My fitness out of the saddle has hindered progress in the saddle on occasion. Due to squats and other weighted movements, I have a muscular backside and legs. Sometimes I think with more slender muscling and less butt I’d be better off :winkgrin: this doesn’t effect me as much riding hunters or jumpers, but it does in dressage. I also tend to have tight hips, so I have to be conscious of that. So all of thst weight lifting hasn’t been the best thing for riding so I switched to a more crossfit based regiment with yoga and stretching. I want to keep the strength and fitness, but not lose mobility and the ability to be supple.

However, if you are top heavy, that can bring a whole 'nother set of issues and balancing.

[netg]

I will admit I have never had a good impression when seeing IW ride in person. Like the OP, I simply don’t get it.
On the other hand, she taught a demo in Omaha were I loved her very correct instruction, and from all I have heard she is incredibly kind to anyone who runs into her out in her everyday private life.

[Scribbler]

OP if you are going to focus on watching one part of a horse, look at what the hind legs are doing and in particular if the front and hind legs are taking strides of equal length. Typically if a horse is thrown into the forehand to encourage toe flip the hind legs will be taking smaller steps and the hocks won’t be articulating as much.

You can also see this in saddle seat riding.

As far as relaxed versus firey, you can’t really do upper level moves without a horse that has some Brio and excess energy. You really need gas in the tank to pull off a good piaffe or passage. So the critert of totally calm and relaxed that might be an important criteria for a training level ammie horse doesn’t hold for upper level work. A good upper level horse might be calm hacking out ( or not) but he’s going to need to get game ready in warm-up.

These horses don’t go " up the levels" starting at first. They enter competition at the FEI levels. Likewise most first level ammie horses are not going to end up doing a winning piaffe, passage, Tempe changes.

I realize there is a continuum on paper and some folks do get there, but really it is two separate worlds, different horses, riders, training.

[LarkspurCO]

Although I hate to post a video from DressageHub, this one is a perfect example to show the difference between Weihegold, Nip Tuck and Verdades. Isabell’s horse is clearly superior, and that is why she won in Omaha. Verdades is a nice horse but he is not using his hind end in the same way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmbwhc5Z1jM

And here’s a photo of Weihegold. I see nothing but a well developed neck:

• http://www.zuchthof-arns-krogmann.de…eb-640x515.jpg

[Feathered_Feet]

@LarkspurCO wow no kidding, great video for highlighting this! Weihegold clearly brings the hind legs under, with the pastern of the hind leg well under the body in front of the stifle when it’s most flexed, leading to the point of the hock being at or in front of the ischium and tail. The other two you can see the point of the hock almost behind the tail when most flexed, and the pastern simply underneath the stifle. (no piaffe of Nip Tuck so hard to compare, but the trend remains in his passage.)

[IdahoRider]

IW’s demo in Omaha was fantastic. It was one of the high points for me and I couldn’t wait to get home and ride (“blooooop”). I have a lot of respect for her riding and training. Her horses might not all have the glitzy, huge gaits of some international horses. But they all put in smooth, solid rides on a fairly consistent basis. The correctness of their gaits and their fluid transitions often make her rides look “boring”, but shouldn’t it look effortless like that?

Regarding Totilis? There were many of us questioning how correct his movement was from the very beginning. Not everyone drank that Kool-Aid.
Sheilah

[thecolorcoal]

thanks everyone! This is a really good conversation and some wonderful responses. :yes: IW DOES in fact seem like a lovely person! So happy to have confirmation she is a good one!

[LarkspurCO]

@Feathered_Feet

@LarkspurCO wow no kidding, great video for highlighting this! Weihegold clearly brings the hind legs under, with the pastern of the hind leg well under the body in front of the stifle when it’s most flexed, leading to the point of the hock being at or in front of the ischium and tail. The other two you can see the point of the hock almost behind the tail when most flexed, and the pastern simply underneath the stifle. (no piaffe of Nip Tuck so hard to compare, but the trend remains in his passage.)

Nip Tuck was more underneath himself in piaffe than passage but his rump was a sort of bouncy. Verdades is perhaps more beautiful than the other two (though I prefer the mare and love her big ears) and put in a great performance, but he was comparatively out behind though most of the movements. I suspect the quiet relaxed rides the OP has seen that scored lower than expected were less correct technically as the horses scoring higher.

[thecolorcoal]

@LarkspurCO - maybe a dumb question but are these things fixable with horses? Aka “out behind”: does that mean trailing behind, or does that simply mean lack of power behind? Are they the same thing? I do admit I have a bias for Verdades and Laura being my dressage idols and I suppose comparing them to Isabell and her horses is tangarines and oranges… Similar but not the same? I’m trying to see things through a judge’s eyes.

[Dbliron]

I think perhaps the take-home message for you, OP, is to understand that IW, CH and LG are all great riders and trainers, and while Verdades has much more God-given talent than either Barney or Weihe, and Laura rides him beautifully, Barney and Weihegold are not big talents, but they’ve been developed and competed by really BIG talents. The riding is everything. I have no doubt that Laura is going to continue to develop as an international talent, but Isabell and Carl have proven themselves over and over again on many ordinary horses. If you’re going to work towards riding as proficiently and capably as any of those three riders you are choosing the right examples to emulate.

[Edre]

@thecolorcoal

@LarkspurCO - maybe a dumb question but are these things fixable with horses? Aka “out behind”: does that mean trailing behind, or does that simply mean lack of power behind? Are they the same thing?

“Out behind” to me (especially relating to what Larkspur was commenting on) is different from lacking power behind. However, being out behind can lead to a lack of power behind (or be symptomatic of a horse that lacks power.) When you’re looking at a horse who is trailing in the hind end, it means that - in the most simplistic of terms, you’re not seeing the hind legs come up underneath the body. This, in turn, inhibits the horse’s ability to “sit” behind (which will especially be prevalent in collection movements like passage and piaffe).

To a degree, you can train a horse to help them develop their hind end. Proper training and approach to collection, in general, can help create a horse who does things “correctly” but conformation is a big part of this. Because it’s so hard to sit, collect, and carry (especially in the piaffe) you’ll see them lose their hind end. So the short answer to your question (“are these things fixable”) is: …well, it varies. On a good day when everything is going right and having been trained up the right way, a horse might display a lovely passage or piaffe. However, maybe during a show something’s happened, the situation isn’t optimal, the horse is a little distracted or the weather is different and they’re more fatigued than they might otherwise be, and instead of performing optimally, you’ll see them struggle a little. So this is going to come back to the point that a horse showing something viewers might consider as less than optimal, doesn’t necessarily mean the riding is poor or the horse is incorrectly trained - it could just be a movement they struggle with and that day might just not be the horse’s day.

To your LG/IW comparison, something that might be helpful to keep in mind is simply the depth of experience that each woman has. LG is a lovely rider and works with one of my favorite professionals (I adore D.McDonald and think she does an excellent job as both rider and trainer). However, IW has been riding for decades and has dozens of horses with which she’s reached the upper levels with. She simply has more miles on her as a rider and has had the opportunity to develop her skill as a result. I do hope that we see Laura Graves continue to compete in the future, and that she’s able to come up with more horses to the level she’s at, but IW has a very good relationship with sponsors who do an excellent job of working with her to get horses that IW brings up with her students.

[Scribbler]

As far as, why out behind?

Certain conformation traits such as a flat croup on some Arabians can make it hard to coil the loins. Some horses have very short strides and find it hard to track up. Some chronic back injuries and years if bad riding and blown hocks can make the hinds trail being in old lesson horses.

None of these factors are at play in high level dressage horses. None of these horses is incapable of coiling the loins though some may have more sit than others.

So you have to think what is the trade-off? What advantage does riding this way confer that makes it worth doing something a little incorrectly?

Trailing hinds is the price you pay for throwing the horse on the forehand so the front leg action is exaggerated. If you want to see this in its purest form go look up saddle seat riding.

If big front legs get a higher score for gaits than you lose on a somewhat imperfect piaffe why wouldn’t you strategically make the choice?

As on the related why open mouths? thread. An open mouth might be the price you pay for getting other kinds of obedience that raise your score enough to cancel any points lost on the open mouth. Of course you can tie the mouth shut so it’s not an issue.

[thecolorcoal]

@Dbliron those are super good points! Training IS everything! It keeps me encouraged that horses can in fact be improved. Sometimes I get sucked into the “they can or they can’t” mentality when it comes to judging confirmation and a horse’s ability to succeed. This discussion is helping me tremendously.

@Scribbler - thank you, I appreciate you clarifying it… I guess there are some hard truths to dressage as well… As with any sport, you make sacrifices for the greater good. It still saddens me and I hope that the sport progresses to award as pure of a ride as possible. I’ve noticed with some of the tests i’ve watched even if the horse spooks or acts up, the rider can still do very well if they are sympathetic to the situation and do not overreact. I have a personal great dislike of the R word being unfortunately subjected to that style of training as my intro to dressage. I apologize to my mare every day, I did not know…

I have now been taught dressage is about harmony, balance, and peace between rider and horse and it’s difficult for me to wrap around the “risks” and “sacrifices” one must make to fit into a certain box. I come from the hunter circuit so for us that would probably be equivalent to putting a very twisted or otherwise harsh bit on a horse so that they can perform to the level that a judge would expect, especially if they have personality flaws or training holes…

[Manni01]

maybe interesting… sorry it is German, but I think you can see how training can influence a horse. I think this is a horse which has some problems with connection and is focussed on his surrounding. I love this video its part of a very good series of Dressage videos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SaMusfdEsc&t=1124s

second part
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kb2COKjUMiA

[BatataHead]

This has been interesting re: the visual outward appearance versus reality of a “hollow back”. I think if you consider the structure of the horse’s spinal column vs the spinal processes that contribute to its outward appearance or topline, you may understand further why it is more useful to look at the whole horse, and the placement and reach of hind legs under the body rather than the slope behind the saddle.

The spinal column that houses the spinal chord is itself is fairly rigid and straight. The horse does not have the pronounced S curves a human spine has. Deformities or individual differences in the shape of the vertical spinous processes that rise out of the spinal column can create a variety of “looks” to the top line - flat, curvy etc.

Of course, the length of this straight spine can be higher at one end than the other - like a pole being held perfectly horizontally, versus a pole (like a mop or broom handle) held with one end higher. “Lowering the haunches” will look different in different horses depending on whether their spine is a naturally uphill pole, level pole or down tilted pole. But the far end of the pole can still lower relative to the natural placement of the front end of the pole.

In fact, in light of these facts, my opinion is that “hollow back” is a misnomer and when we say “hollow back” we are actually speaking of a horse with braced back muscles, inverted neck, and unengaged hind end. Not a back that intermittently sags in the middle because the horse is being ridden improperly or has a bad moment.

Look at this image of a horse’s spine and see how the withers formed by long tall spinous processes - not the shape of the “spine.” Imagine how differences or irregularities in how these processes might develop could change the outward appearance of a back.

https://www.irinfo.org/articleofmonth/images/4_1_2011_robson_4.gif

Check out this article from Equus regarding sway backs. We are not talking sway backs here, but as it also has good information on general back anatomy.
https://equusmagazine.com/management/swayback-in-horses-8221

Read the subsection titled "Spinal Designs and Misalignments"

“Appearances are deceiving even with normal horse backbones. The familiar rise and fall and rise again of the equine topline does not describe the path followed by the spine itself. Instead, the vertebrae from chest to tailhead follow one another in a nearly horizontal straight line. The undulations on the exterior of the horse are created by finlike projections, called dorsal spinal processes, on the vertebrae’s upper surfaces…”

[J-Lu]

There are great posts on this thread that I agree with.

FWIW, I have always had tremendous respect for IW I first really noticed her when she was competing regularly against AvG (rivalry days-20+ years ago?), and she never said anything negative about her horse, the venue, management, etc. when she lost.

These days, IW prefers to get young horses and develop them herself (not common at all). That she has brought so many to FEI/GP, and many have been retired at top levels, speaks volumes. Also, I have watched her warm up in person, and she gets “in” and “out” with the movements, making the horses work and then letting them relax on a loose rein. That is why, in the opinion of many, she can successfully show young horses at GP. She doesn’t drill them and keeps it positive, it’s almost a schooling experience.

She is a fantastic and patient rider/trainer, IMO. She relies on properly training horses with 3 correct gaits and good attitudes.

[thecolorcoal]

Thank you so much to the both of you. I never knew this about Isabell. I do know a lot about AvG and SJ, unfortunately, even though they were before my time and I’ve chosen not to research them deeper than what is publicly available and common knowledge. It’s very cool that IW is willing and able to work with all body types and personalities of all different horses and really brings home the original point that dressage is for ALL horses, not just a certain breed.

[Edre]

@thecolorcoal

As with any sport, you make sacrifices for the greater good. It still saddens me and I hope that the sport progresses to award as pure of a ride as possible.

I have now been taught dressage is about harmony, balance, and peace between rider and horse and it’s difficult for me to wrap around the “risks” and “sacrifices” one must make to fit into a certain box.

I would actually challenge you to consider every ride as a bit of a risk/reward endeavor. Sacrifice (or compromise) occurs everywhere.

Sometimes you might get on a horse that’s having a hot/reactive day. You maybe could go for an 8/8.5 extension but you know that bringing them back into a working or collected gait on the back end of it would be less than diplomatic. So do you go for the 8.5 on extension and maybe sacrifice the transitional score? Or do you compromise on a less dynamic extension and stick with something that you can bring back more diplomatically?

This happens all the time. No horse is the same every day (and each horse is different from each other). Some horses pose an added challenge of being naturally more reactive, having somewhat more explosive movements (some of the extensions are a good example, changes, and some horses get really anxious coming out of high collection movements on bad days).

Compromise is a good thing. Taking each day, each horse, and each ride as a new one is a talent, and it’s one that some of the riders I enjoy watching most (Hubertus Schmidt is a master at this, as is Ingrid Klimke - her rides on Franziskus are basically textbook for this reason, but IW is a phenomenal rider for this as well especially when you consider that lately her rides are horses she’s brought up from being young horses, training-wise).

Ultimately, a dressage test is more than one movement. You can have a very successful horse that might not have big extensions or bombastic gaits (Debbie McDonald with Brentina is a good example of this). They might not have scored the same as their contemporaries on those sections of a test, but there’s other skills - half passes, flying changes, collection, etc. No horse is going to be naturally gifted and score a 9/9.5 down the card. As you go (even as an amateur rider!) you’ll find places in tests where you will be able to make up or gain points. You will identify places where you will lose them. So knowing that, ride your tests cleverly and then also be diplomatic to push the horse to show their best, but be empathetic that “best” changes day to day.

[thecolorcoal]

@Edre - that’s a super good point! Thank you so much for reminding me of that! This is why I love the sport <3

Another question: I hope this doesn’t sound bad, i’m not trying to be accusatory. I had a friend who is now into western dressage and she boasts that western dressage “is more fair than [english] dressage because it judges the horse against its own conformation and does not expect it to perform beyond its physical means.” I feel like this is what all dressage is supposed to be, though. Can anyone clarify this? Why do we need horses with x y and z gaits? I always was taught dressage was designed for every horse…

[atr]

Well, there’s dressage and there’s DRESSAGE. Just as there is say, farm team ski racing and FIS sanctioned racing.

Dressage can improve pretty much every horse. But in order to gain improvement there must be some level of push, some level of increased effort, otherwise we just go along on a plateau and never get anywhere. Gaits improve to some degree in every horse with training. We can add in loft and suspension and collection to have a horse move better.

DRESSAGE, as an upper level, top sport, is a different beast. Not every horse (or every rider) can reach that level. Those horses are born with a different level of movement, and also with a different level of drive and competitive instinct, than the horses most of us amateurs ride.

I’m lucky enough to have a really nice horse with nice basic gaits, natural suspension and a generally laid back attitude to life. We should, God Willing, eventually fumble our way to local and regional FEI levels. He still isn’t by any means a nationally competitive horse (nor am I that rider–I’m old, uncoordinated and a chicken :)) But that’s fine by me because he doesn’t scare me very often and we enjoy our work together.

Your friend is right in some ways. It’s not fair to take a horse without the basic mechanics or mentality and push it to do what it cannot do. Don’t be banging a square peg into a round hole.

However, a pleasant horse with a workable walk, trot and canter can learn a lot. But it isn’t going to the Olympics nowadays, any more than I’m going to be a World Cup ski racer.