So to be as successful as she is she HAS to be doing something right… right?
But every time I see her ride, her horses are always hollow. The underneck muscles are developed. They are on the forehand. Does she just pick the long-backed guys or the green-beans? :no: I don’t want to believe the rumors i’ve heard…
omg and she rides in a BATES? RESPECT! (not sarcastic, I actually think that is really cool)
I don’t know anything about any rumors but she can’t be all bad if she does this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMo-w69I0WA
No bit, no saddle- lots of pats and treats.
See? I knew there had to be SOME reason she does well… but I’d like an explanation of why her horses are hollow… unless the reason is just obvious.
Show us an example of what you mean, and maybe someone can respond.
I was watching FEI TV, the video from neumunster, but this video also caught my attention: I see other horses with obvious lifted backs. I know longer backed horses sometimes struggle but I’d just like clarification
Her horses aren’t hollow, and most certainly don’t have an underneck. What makes you think that they are hollow? It sounds like you’ve been reading the internet “experts” who fixate on body parts (e.g., the area behind the saddle) with no appreciation or understanding for how the horses are actually moving.
Forget about the bloggers and WATCH how the horses use their hind leg. A horse whose legs are reaching well under its body cannot be hollow. I just watched this ride on Emilio. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVna23yAC0s Notice in the canter work when he comes through the corners – very collected. Notice in piaffe where the hocks are – under the body. Isabell is a master with this. Her mare Weihegold is even better. Take a look at her World Cup ride from Omaha. She can really sit!
I don’t see anything obviously wrong in these videos. I’ve certainly seen videos of other high level riders where the horses are on the forehand and strung out behind, but these videos of Isabell Werth don’t show that.
Ok, I am glad I asked because I did not recognize this. No, I did not get any of my thoughts from bloggers. I have watched other grand prix horses and they don’t have as much sway in their backs as isabell’s horse’s do. Perhaps it is the way they sit.
I am looking at the level of the loins to croup. When Isabell rides the loins look lower than the croup. Maybe this is simply horse build? I thought the entire back needed to be completely level or a slight arc. If I’m wrong that would be a huge shock to me, but you know I might be so please tell me if i am! I am only here to learn. :yes:
IN MY INEXPERIENCED VIEWING OF THE OMAHA FINALS: I felt that Verdades had a MUCH more raised back than Isabell’s horse did. I have also read in books and magazines that sometimes a horse IS hollow around the ring but if everything else looks good they are not as penalized for it.
One of the things to keep in mind as you watch dressage tests is that, while specific body parts might be “symptomatic” of certain problems, that isn’t necessarily entirely the case and breaking down riding to a specific body part/image will often lose the bigger picture of the ride. (This is also why I have so many issues with trying to talk about pros/cons of riders or horses based off of a still photo.)
Likewise, the mechanics of movement will look different from horse to horse. Horses will have longer backs or shorter, steeper angles or shallower, different shoulder angles, lines of neck attachment, etc.
Which isn’t to say that no horse is ever hollow, but that there’s more to look at to accurately identify it than sometimes we initially remember.
This is basically along the same lines of what I was going to say. Horses all have different conformation, mechanics, movement, etc. Two horses could be moving well while using themselves correctly but look very different. I think you (OP) are too fixated on the aesthetics of the back.
Verdades and Isabelle’s horse are two different horses, so we cannot expect them to move identically.
While what you read in a book may not be exclusively false, at this level, you generally need to have it all together. You reach a point where you can’t fake it. You cannot correctly pull off a majority of these movements with a hollow horse.
@Edre - ok, thank you for clarifying. That does make sense, though I am still feeling frustrated. 
Totilas, at the time, was considered amazing because of his front legs. Now we know that is incorrect. Some horses still have the front leg fling and now it is a question of training or gait? If we know that Totilas’ front leg fling was a result of training, are ALL front leg flings training? I see that some of Isabell’s horses have a lot of front reach that looks very similar to Totilas where as Stephen Peters’ horses don’t have that straight leg look and appear more like they are pushing instead of pulling.
I’m just using Isabell as an example, I suppose. I find (keyword: I FIND. Please CORRECT me if I am wrong, I am new to this) UL dressage frustrating to watch because I feel that horse/rider combinations that make it look “easy” and “calm” and “peaceful” and “harmonious” don’t score as well as the rider/horse combinations that put on a good show/exaggerated movements. I don’t want to name names but Isabell has always been considered one of the best riders in the world and yet none of the backs look anything like Valegro, Verdades, Ravel, Vancouver K who have VERY apparent raised backs. Then again all those backs are shorter than Isabell’s horses.
Is there something I am missing? I know roundness is very, very crucial and you can’t be successful without it.
@CanteringCarrot - EXACTLY! But I keep thinking about Totilas. There were obvious issues there and yet they scored great at the time, though Gal has never really bounced back…
I think you are very enthusiastic about dressage which is great. But you are at the beginning and Dressage is a long journey to learn. You are talking about rides with look peaceful and calm. Maybe they are boring?? Dressage is supposed to be expressive. Whatever you do there has to be energy in it. Thats the art of dressage. You present your horse in a way that it looks engergetic, but without being tense. In order to achieve that you need to work on adjustability. Thats the fun of it which makes Dressage exciting. And by the way I.W. is a master in doing this. She brought most of her horses up the levels from the beginning. And she usually rides them until retirement. She does not flip them or throw them away if something goes wrong. And by the way she was asked to ride Totilas and she refused…
@Manni01 thank you. This makes me feel much better. I just get confused sometimes because I know all conformation is different. I think the very first video I ever watched of dressage was Totilas and I felt betrayed when I learned exactly what happened behind the scenes. Now I don’t trust any horses that move that way. I have a lot of respect for Isabell. As I have posted in previous threads my horse herself has a very weak back that must be ridden extremely precisely and so that has always been my area of focus. I also rode with a cult-ish trainer who claimed that you could get a back automatically raised by pulling a horse’s nose into their chest (i posted about that too at the time GUSHING about how brilliant she was. Now I know better…). My very first dressage lesson and trainer… So forgive me if I am not trusting my eye. I have been let down a few too many times and am only starting to learn the truth from fiction and lies.
I FORGOT THE DIFFICULTY POINTS! that’s really good to now! Peters tests are not nearly as challenging as IW’s! Now it all makes sense!
it’s nice to watch GP because at that level you get to see the end goal. I want to make sure I am admiring the right people.
I think @CanteringCarrot above made a good point: you might need to step away from looking at just the back as you watch the tests. The back is a little more of a dynamic situation than just how dropped or elevated it seems - you also need to factor in the elasticity, how much swing is there, and even if it doesn’t visibly seem elevated (IW’s Don Johnson is a horse that might not give the perception of an elevated spine, for example) you need to keep an eye on the hind end. Even if the back isn’t up, how much weight bearing is occurring behind? And if there’s weight bearing, is there also impulsion occurring? And if both of those things are occurring, is there also swing/reach, and is the back soft and supple enough to carry all of that energy to the front to help lift the front end?
These are just a few things that I can think of off the top of my head.
One thing to keep in mind is that while Weighold is (I believe) IW’s highest scoring horse, she has entire stable of them she goes out and rides test that score very highly (and can on a good day, win) with. While there’s definitely a trend of popular/fad riders (and horses), that’s one distinction with IW. She puts in a good ride on a number of horses and is scored accordingly.
One of the things that she does very well, despite some of her horses having some more interesting conformation (Don Johnson is a good example of this, again, but even Weighold is a little odd to me - and she doesn’t have most bombastic gaits, either) is that she goes out and puts in a good ride every single time. Her sense of geometry for her tests is impeccable. Likewise, her timing in aids is really hard to match. She sets her horses up for each movement so they can perform with the necessary dynamism and elasticity to make the movement both technically correct, but also following the tenants of the test.
Edit: I will also suggest that you work on training your eye to follow what a horse’s hind end is doing. I think some of the recent trends for the front half of the horse (flashy front legs, that the head/neck is doing) have distracted us from seeing what is happening on the back half. And I generally adhere to the tenant that everything is going to start from the engine - if a horse’s hind end is elastic, weight bearing, has reach, and is dynamic, you can learn to track how that is shaping the horse back to front (and how it may impact things like the back, the carriage, freedom of the shoulder, collection, etc).
@Edre - this is EXTREMELY valuable. thank you SO MUCH for posting this! Now I know what I am watching!!! 
No expert here, but I’ve got a ton of world cup videos dating back to the 90s and have watched IW ride for many years. A video circulated within the last week of IW riding Emilio. At one point in the video I nearly wept (emotional that way), she was coming out of the extended walk phase to collectd walk and just melted into a piaffe. The reins were slack and the horse was so easy and compliant. I was never that keen on Totilas but didn’t hate on him either. I am most impressed when I see energy/fluidity with relaxation and a happy horse face. IW, Ingrid K, certainly others, they make me choke up.
I think it’s safe to admire IW! In addition to what’s already been mentioned about her skills and her consistency, I’d like to mention her body type. She looks like a normal human.
I think it’s safe to admire IW! In addition to what’s already been mentioned about her skills and her consistency, I’d like to mention her body type. She looks like a normal human.
From a biomechanics perspective I’d think it would be better to carry a bit of fluffy weight below the belt as opposed to the “apple shape.” I’m forever trying to figure out what makes one person excel at dressage/equestrian sports while another struggles.
Re looking like a normal human: I think this all the time! I am not tall with a long torso and legs that go on for days that can just drape around the sides of the horse. I am shorter with a small to medium build. I just cannot have that long appearance some riders have! There is a trainer at my stable that I envy because she has such long legs. However, she makes a lot of horses look small and there is no way she could ride my PRE without looking absolutely ridiculous. I do think some body types lend themselves to certain disciplines. Just like horse conformation, some have an easier time at the sport purely due to conformation.
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