Help me understand "Red Bag" deliveries ...

{{{HUGS}}} to Genevieve on her recent loss. That filly was just stunning and life is just so unfair at times …

I received another email from a breeder last night whose mare had a red bag delivery, the mare had complications and was euthanized but the orphan foal is holding its own.

Over the years, we’ve read about Red Bag deliveries and some of those foals sadly didnt make it and others are happy and healthy yearlings, two and three year olds now with no ill efects from their rough start in life

Thankfully, I have never had to deal with a Red Bag delivery and hope never to have to do so

As breeders, are there any signs beforehand that it may happen or literally is the first sign once the feet start poking out that you have a major problem happening?

What needs to be done, in what order, to help save the mare and the foal? What are the common mistakes that are made that severely compromise the mare and the foal that should be avoided?

Can a reasonably competent foaling attendant address any/all issues that happen in front of them?

Are certain mares prone to this for some reason and may it repeat in subsequent years? Or are certain farms / areas prone to this like happened in KY a few years back due to external factors?

Do the foals ALWAYS need to go to the closest vet hospital for observation, treatment and IV’s, etc or can some of them be handled at home instead?

What do we need to know in case the worst happens and we are faced with a Red Bag delivery with one of our mares?

Thanks so much

First, most of the time when you have a red bag delivery, it’s actually the bright red placenta that you will see…NOT feet, noses, amniotic sack, etc…Bright red, fleshy looking placenta.

But, as far as indications that you “might” have a problem beforehand - mares that are dealing with placentitis are much more likely to have issues. Additionally, mares that have less than stellar endometrial biopsy scores are at a higher risk.

Think of the placenta and the uterine liner as velcro. So, mares with a poor endometrial biopsy score, it’s like velcro that’s been used over and over and over again. It just doesn’t have the holding power that it did when it was brand new. And, with placentitis, there are pockets or large portions of the placenta where the attachment isn’t there or is severely compromised. Consequnetly, they are much more likely to have premature separation of the placenta.

What needs to be done, in what order, to help save the mare and the foal? What are the common mistakes that are made that severely compromise the mare and the foal that should be avoided?

The problem with a red bag delivery is that the lifeline between the mare and the foal is terminated. Consequently, the foal is not receiving oxygen support during delivery. While the placenta is still attached, no worries unless the umbilical cord has been severed. So, even though during foalings, some foals will have their tongues hanging out and look dead, so long as the placenta and umbilical cord are still intact, the foal is receiving what it needs during delivery.

Can a reasonably competent foaling attendant address any/all issues that happen in front of them?

The thing with a red bag delivery is expediting the delivery. The foal is no longer receiving the support it needs to survive and is being deprived of oxygen, so immediate delivery is essential. Yes, a competent foaling attendant can certainly assist in delivering a healthy foal, but time “is” of the essence in a red bag delivery.

Are certain mares prone to this for some reason and may it repeat in subsequent years? Or are certain farms / areas prone to this like happened in KY a few years back due to external factors?

See above.

Do the foals ALWAYS need to go to the closest vet hospital for observation, treatment and IV’s, etc or can some of them be handled at home instead?

See above. But, due to oxygen deprivation, there are some foals that will need the additional support of a facility that specializes in dealing with the equine neonate. Dummy foals are not uncommon with red bag deliveries.

What do we need to know in case the worst happens and we are faced with a Red Bag delivery with one of our mares?

Thanks so much

Immediately get the bag open and the foal out. Time is the most critical factor in a red bag delivery. Waiting for assistance will usually result in an unpleasant outcome.

The above is probably a gross oversimplification of red bag deliveries, but hopefully it makes it a bit more easily understood what is going on and why time is so important.

Hope that helps!

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

With a red bag you do not see the nice white sac we are so accustomed to seeing after the water breaks. Instead it is a red bulge. I immediately tore through the placenta to find feet. Pulled with all of my might and the foal was delivered within 5 minutes of the water breaking. I have a foal resuscitator and was able to aspirate and then the foal began breathing. The vet was out within 30 minutes and in the mean time the filly was continually rubbed briskly with warmed towels.
She was giving IV DMSO, antibiotics and tubed colostrum. She seemed to improve and went from a very floppy, limp foal to a filly who was able to get sternal on her own, decent suckle response, would whinny to Mom. A few hours later she started backsliding and was rushed to UC Davis.
The vets there felt she had a very good chance because all of her tests were coming back good. Xrays and ultrasounds showed nothing problematic.
Her bloodwork revealed that she had a very high level of the hormone that keeps the foal thinking it is in utero. They have a study going where giving these dummy foals Pergolide helps block that hormone and the foals respond positively. My filly unfortunately was not a candidate for that and they were going to try a new unproven treatment but one that would have blocked the hormone at a higher level.
My little girl gave up her fight last night at about 40 hours old. She never did stand and nurse.

I had a red bag delivery 7 years ago. In hindsight there were definitely different signs with the mare and labor than in a normal delivery, but I certainly did not recognize them and I’m not sure if I would even now. The mare seemed to start labor at one point. Broke out in a sweat, went down, grunting, got up a few times, then it turned off. This was odd for this mare. About 6 hours later she went into labor for real. Lots of pushing, straining, but no water. It was taking much longer than usual. Finally saw something under her tail and it was unmistakably the placenta. My gut reaction was to grab it (I had a knife nearby to use if necessary) and it immediately broke, water gushed out, and 5 minutes later the foal was out. His skin was kind of pink, and it took him longer to nurse than this mare’s previous foals (but they had all been fillies!) but still within a normal 2 hours. All was well. I called the vet and she seemed unconcerned about the red bag delivery (I did not have the greatest confidence in this vet…) Anyway, IgG was normal, foal and mare were healthy and I was very lucky.

I think one of the difficulties for a red bag delivery for the mare, is that they are trying to pass the foal in the amniotic sac, together with the placenta and all the amniotic fluid through the birth canal! A friend of mine had a red bag delivery. It was her first foal. She saw the red bag and did nothing (except call the vet). Mare delivered the foal IN the placenta. When the foal was out of the mare, my friend broke the bag. Foal was actually fine and stood and nursed. Unfortunately, the mare prolapsed a few hours later and was euthanized.

I hope to never have another red bag, but the important thing, as Kathy said, is to break the red bag and get the foal out asap.

I have never had a “red bag” delivery. I live in fear of having one. I have foaled 3 mares so far this year and have seven more to go. Hope the odds are not against me.

My question is this…when and if I see a red bag do you just go for it and cut thru it? Or try to tear it apart with your hands? Is there anything I can “CUT” that shouldnt be cut? Meaning, can I do harm by scissor cutting?

My farriers wife had an unusual situation. Their mare was foaling and suddenly there was this pinkish thing presenting. Turns out, after the vet arrived, that it was the mares bladder and not a red bag. Was PINK. I am wondering if I might have gone for it thinking it was a red bag, but then something tells me I would have seen the difference. Anyone had that happen?

Its all very very scary.

Have had 2 so far…same mare.First time had no idea it was coming…mare foaled on her due date. I co owned the mare with another person at the time. She foaled out at the other farm. She was on foal watch in her tack room but accidentally slept through it and when she woke up later found the foal in the sac dead. She felt so horrible about it already I couldn’t say much. I traded another foal of similar breeding to her for the other half of ownership in the mare and bred her myself. Next year she started in with bagging up/discharge at about 280 days with another RB: not unexpected with the other symptoms. She was put on abx/regumate/banamine and foaled at 310. Foal was small and weak. It took 6 days for him to stand and nurse…needed to be bottle fed or held up to stand and nurse and I work during the day/could not do that every few hours so he went to the horsie hospital for 6 days until he was strong enough to stand and nurse on his own. Placenta cultured with the worst fungal infection the vet had ever seen…but he said fungal is better than bacterial…the fungus does not cross the placenta though it comprimises it…and bactrial can pass through to the foal. Mare was treated for the fungus, cultured clean and bred…this time by AI instead of live cover with a small dose to limit infection/inflammation risk, put on short term ABx anyway, given a Caslicks and got a lot more preggo checks than the other mares. USs were fine until her 9 mo check. On her last US at 9 mos vet thought placenta looked good but there was something just not quite right about the fluid…not as clear as she would like…so she has been back on Abx for the last 60 days of her pregnancy. So far she is at 326 with no signs of anything amiss (discharge, bagging up…nada…) but still watching her like a hawk with her history. She is older and this is it with her repro issues: she will be retired after this foal. I plan to send her to the horsie hospital to foal out when she shows signs of bagging up and getting close. I can’t really afford to send her out a month early to just sit there unless I have good reason to. She did foal with out all the signs it was coming the last 2 times. The RB is scary but we have only had one dystocia (foal with head turned backwards and not between legs…I was afraid it was going to break it’s neck in delivery). THAT was the scariest thing ever as the mare would not lay down, foal was coming wrong, mare wanted to clobber me…finally mare got too tired to stand up and fight me anymore and I was finally able to help which was still way harder than I thought it would be. Vet was shocked when he got here I managed at all…and truthfully I was too! It was just kind of “you do your best til the vet gets there” and by the time he got there it probably would have been too late. Back to the RB thing: that placenta is TOUGH. You will not rip it with your hands…need a dang sharp scissors or knife. Especially in the case of this mare’s last placenta w/ the fugus infection…vet said it was the thickest one he EVER saw. It weighed in at 40 pounds!!!

If it helps for others:

Simple layman terms in relation to humans is Placenta Previa. The placenta is trying to deliver before the foal is, so you have to cut through it to let the baby out.

I have had one red bag, and a couple others that I did have some placenta (a large handful) coming out, and time was critical. The one I had, the foal was also not presenting with 2 legs. I had to quickly get the mare up, find the missing leg, and position it. There was no time, so 3 of us pulled hard without taking the time to let the mare go back down. Luckily, one of the people helping was a very strong man (sorry ladies, but a man’s strength and ego is just a precious thing when you need power, and can put them publicly on the spot, and I have yet to see a woman do what they can do - shoot me now). Luckily, my foal was totally fine.

This such an important thing for all of us breeders to become educated about. We also have not had a RB delivery. I read everything I can on the subject.

Kathy, if you can continue to add anything else to this, please do, and guide us all. Thank you.

I had one. It was Roz’s mother. The mare had broken her leg (badly - her whole pastern was a bag of bones) three weeks before her due date. We opted to try and keep her going as an incubator. We put on a cast, and then a brace that ran from one side of the cast down under her heel and attached back on the other side of the cast. Back then, Don Peridone (SP? I just remember it was that champagne stuff) was very experimental, but we put her on it to help the baby develop faster.

I imported two goats that I had to milk - it was awful - they were obstinate and wouldn’t let down and I remember crying every time I had to milk them. I had a nursery set up in my garage and Tagamet, O2 tank, and everything my vet and I could think of.

After 10 days on the DP, we were going to induce, and on day 10 the mare went into labor on her own. Because of the stress, pain, pain meds, the mare was weak and had lost a lot of weight. We had planned to hopefully get the baby to nurse a few times, then let her rest. The baby presented normally at first and I was on the phone with my vet. About the time the head came out, I saw placenta and was told to pull with all my might. Unfortunately, because the mare was so weak, I pulled out a lovely filly that still had a heartbeat, but was braindead. Tried resussitating her, and rubbing, rubbing, rubbing, but no response.

We buried them both that afternoon.

My experience was due to a very bad accident to the mare and there was nothing normal about the days preceeding the delivery. In Roz’s case she had other variables (mummified twin) and had been bleeding - Gen was prepared for the RB.

Like Kathy said, I think that the mare’s uterine condition is key here.

I’m not a breeder, but my friend’s mare developed placentitis so I’ve been doing lots of research for her on the subject of red bag deliveries just in case.

This link has a good diagram that shows all of the parts of the placenta in relation to the foal to help understand what exactly is happening, and also has a discussion about red bag towards the bottom.
http://www.scottcreek.com/Dystocia.htm

This is excerpted from “The Complete Book of Foaling” by Karen Hayes DVM. (I’m transcribing it, so please forgive any typos.)

She calls the red bag delivery a Dry Birth.

"Occasionally there may be a problem with the rupturing of the cervical star. Perhaps the cervical star does not aligh perfectly with the cervix, causing the weak spot in the placenta to lie off center with the opening cervix. Or perhaps the placenta is thickened as a result of a disease process or a nutritional imbalance, and the thickened placenta is too tough to rupture when it protrudes through the opening cervix. Whatever the cause, if the mare should fail to “break the water” before going into serious labor contractions, a dangerous situation will result, and you should be ready to recognize this situation and correct it immediately–early detection and early correction.

In the normal situation, when the outer placental sac ruptures at the cervical star, the inner sack (amnion) should then be allowed to advance and should appear at the vulvar lips of the mare within 5 minutes. Remember that the allantois-chorion (the outer sac) is a dark red, roughened, terrycloth-like membrane, and the amnion is thinner, more delicate and translucent milky-white in color.

If for some reason the allantois-chorion does not rupture as it should, the mare will do one of two things: she will either stop the labor process and start again later, or she will begin the uterine contractions of serious labor and try to push the pregnancy out in its entiety–the foal, the amnion, the amnoitic fluid, the allantoic fluid and the allantois-chorion–she will try to force the entire, intact water balloon and its gallons of fluid out through the rigid walls of the birth canal. This is called a “dry birth.”

A dry birth is dangerous to the foal for two reasons, besides the obvious disadvantage of lack of lubrication. First, as a result of that lack of lubrication in concert with the increase in size of the overall “package” due to the fact that the whole placental unit is trying to come out at the same time as the foal, the foal is being subjected to a tremendous increase in pressure and stress, leaving it more susceptible to physical and neurological damage.

Second, think about the source of the foal’s oxygen–the fetus receives its oxygen not from breathing, but rather from the blood of his dame. When the fetus emerges from the mare, his former oxygen source is cut off, and he must learn to breathe on his own in order to oxygenate hs own blood.

But before he emerges, while he’s still inside the mare, where does the blood in his umbilical artery come from? It comes from the little “roots” of the placenta that are embedded into the uterus, drawing blood from the blood supply of the mare’s uterus. If the allantois-chorion fails to rupture and the mare’s uterus begins to contract, eventually she will manage to push the pregnancy far enough out so that you can see the chorionic surface of the placenta at the lips of teh vulva. This meas that it has begun to detach from the its Velcro-like attachment in the uterus (premature separation), so that at least a portion of the placenta is now no longer drawing blood from the uterus because it is no longer attached. So now the baby is no longer receiving hs full ration of blood and oxygen. As the mare continues to push, more and more of the placenta will coome apart from the uterus, and the baby will receive less and less oxygen. If this is allowed to continue for too long, the foal will suffocate, since it is caught in limbo between umbilical oxygenation and air breathing. And all of this is happening during the time when the foal can least afford to be deprived of oxygen, since he’s in the middle of a terribly stressful situation: birth.

Armed with just a little knowledge, you can catch this problem early and correct it before any damage is done. Obviously there is not time to wait for help to arrive. So what do you do?

Do you push the pregnancy back in so that it doesn’t come away from the uterus any farther? Absolutely not. The power of the uterine contractions would be impossible to overcome, and your efforts would only result in the mare pushing even harder.

Do you grab the exposed membranes and pull the pregnancy out so that the foal can “air breathe?” This would also be virtually impossible, and it would result in significant damage to the mare’s birth canal. Furthermore, by the time you succeeded in extracting the foal it would probably be dead. Remember, you’d not only be pulling the weight of the foal but also up to 75 pounds of liquid and placental membrane through a canal that is barely large enough to admit the foal alone.

The solution to the problem is very simple. First, be there when the mare foals. Watch for the water breaking. Whenever she lies down, walk around to a position where you can see her vulva. If you see the allantois-chorion at the vulva (remember what it looks like!), use whatever is handy–a knife, a pair of scissors, your fingers, whatever–and break it open. The allantoic fluid (“water”) will come out through the tear you’ve created, and the birthing will proceed. It’s that simple. By simply being there and knowing what to watch for, you can save the day with this simple procedure."

I had my one and only red bag last April. The mare was an older veteran Saddlebred mare of many foals. She’d had signs of placentitis and we were treating her for that. My first indication that something was not right during the delivery was that she seemed to be pushing very hard and nothing was presented…no amnion, legs…nothing. I was worried I had a dystocia so I examined her and inserted a hand into her vagina. I felt something round coming out the birth canal…I could not feel feet or legs. I was just about to get sick thinking of what was ahead. Another push from the mare and I checked her again…she was progressing…something was coming out. I sat there envisioning all sorts of awful possibilities and then there was the red placenta and it finally clicked as to what was going on. I cut the placenta with my scissors and there where the feet and right behind that was the head. I started pulling for all I could and the rest of the delivery was fairly fast and easy. The filly immediately started to breathe and was 100% normal. My heart failure happened afterwards as I sat against the wall watching mare and foal and realizing what a near disaster that had been.

Wow. Some truly incredible stories …

My farriers wife had an unusual situation. Their mare was foaling and suddenly there was this pinkish thing presenting. Turns out, after the vet arrived, that it was the mares bladder and not a red bag. Was PINK. I am wondering if I might have gone for it thinking it was a red bag, but then something tells me I would have seen the difference. Anyone had that happen?

I am thinking from seeing the afterbirth after a normal foaling, it should be 100% obvious the difference between the bladder and the placenta. Is it truly idiot proof to know the difference between the 2 and how often would a bladder emerge during the birthing process??? :confused:

With regards to the mare prolapsing the bladder and whether or not one would be able to tell the difference between the placenta and the blader…well, FWIW, the placenta has a “gritty” feel to it. Bizarre, but once you’ve had your hands on it, you’ll know what I’m describing. The bladder is smooth and slick feeling. Additionally, should you make a mistake and cut through the bladder, it’s not a life threatening injury and “can” be repaired. Definitely better not to do it in the first place, but don’t panic. <smile>.

Hope that helps!

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

Thanks Kathy - as always!

But if they both look pretty well the same, when you see something red protruding and your adrenalin goes into overdrive and you start to panic, I wonder - realistically - how many people would take the time to feel what they are seeing and try to make a scientific analysis as to whether it is smooth and slick feeling or more gritty …

I was hoping that by simply viewing it, it would be immediately obvious which scenario you were dealing with but it doesnt sound like it IS that simple at all …

Yes, that is what I was thinking. Eventhough I have seen hundreds of placentas and held them and felt them and examined them with my vet I am thinking for a brief moment I might question my judgement. Anyone else think that?? Thankfully, the bladder prolapsing is probably much less common than the uncommom red bag. Or so I think!!!

[QUOTE=TrueColours;3142157]
Thanks Kathy - as always!

But if they both look pretty well the same, when you see something red protruding and your adrenalin goes into overdrive and you start to panic, I wonder - realistically - how many people would take the time to feel what they are seeing and try to make a scientific analysis as to whether it is smooth and slick feeling or more gritty …

I was hoping that by simply viewing it, it would be immediately obvious which scenario you were dealing with but it doesnt sound like it IS that simple at all …[/QUOTE]

<smile>…Hence my comment that the bladder “can” be repaired and it isn’t life threatening. We recognize that in the heat of the moment, errors may be made. But, if you have to sit there and analyze if you’re looking at a bladder or a placenta, crucial time is being lost that could mean the loss of a foal. Just being practical…dead foal or bladder repair? If you know you’re probably not going to kill your mare if you make a mistake, you probably won’t hesitate <grin>.

Hope that helps!

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

If you know you’re probably not going to kill your mare if you make a mistake, you probably won’t hesitate <grin>.

Hope that helps!

You have SUCH a way of putting things in perspective! :slight_smile:

Thanks a bunch Kathy

Question Regarding Stillborn Foal and Redbag

I had a Friday of downs and ups. We had been checking on a mare all week that’s milk turned opaque white on Saturday and she would drip some out, nothing horrid to worry about. Her due date wasn’t until April 11th (the day she actually foaled). Hubby and I checked on her every hour at night. She never looked distressed, never was biting at her sides, pawing, never saw her laying down. Only once did I see her butt pressing and itching a hind let, that was Wed night. Friday morning I go to do my check on her at 8 Am to find her standing over a foal in the placenta. The placenta was still warm the foal was warm. It was not opened but was VERY easy to open. Umbilical cord was still attached to the foal/placenta. Placenta was all out of the mare. Now this mare passes her placenta VERY quickly normally, she’s had three healthy foals. Would these signs indicate a red bag delivery? The placenta around the foal was white with the red velvety trailing behind her. My heart sank as this proved even checking every hour can not be enough with a sneaky mare. The fact foal, fluid and sack were all warm made my heart sink. But my gut tells me this mare leaking small amounts of milk and white milk for 6 days indicates something was wrong before. I never saw the foal moving in her the last week. As the mother of a stillborn daughter, sometimes it takes your body days the doctor said to deliver, if you aren’t induced, so I wonder if that is not what she was doing? Mare is fine. She has moved on luckily. Later that day I checked on her at 2:45 and went out to check a pony mare out in the field. Her milk was STARTING to turn white. So I thought hmmm maybe tonight or tomorrow. Well as soon as the kids from the elementary school next door went in for the day from recess she foaled! I’ve had 4-7 foals a year since 2001 so still getting my feet wet but the stillbirth really hit me hard.

FWIW, there is NO SUCH THING as a due date in the horse. 340 days is an average of averages. However, in the equine unlike other species, the foal determines gestational length. It is why inducing the mare is a BIG no no unless there are very, very specific conditions in plce. Normal gestation is 330 to 370 days.

Would these signs indicate a red bag delivery? The placenta around the foal was white with the red velvety trailing behind her.

First, the placenta is the red, velvety bag, not the white membrane around the foal. What you are describing indicates that the foal was born normally with the placenta following. But, without a necropsy there is really no way to know what went wrong.

But my gut tells me this mare leaking small amounts of milk and white milk for 6 days indicates something was wrong before.

Leaking small amounts of milk and having white milk for six days would not indicate that anything was out of the ordinary for me, unless she was doing that prematurely.

I never saw the foal moving in her the last week.

During the final weeks of gestation, the foal gets “quieter”. So, the fact that you didn’t see it moving would again, not freak me out.

You can second guess until the cows come home. But I’ve learned to not to speculate on the what ifs in life. If there was something that could have been done differently that might have changed the outcome, learn from that. But, if there was nothing you would have done differently, don’t beat yourself up. Sometimes, Mother Nature is just one very cruel woman.

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com