help! my first draft show.

These shows are hugely popular in this country. But, because of comments like Trakehner’s, draft horse people don’t post on open forums…Please disregard Trakehner’s post, if this is a draft horse show, he doesn’t have a clue about draft horse shows and what is acceptable turnout or what the rules are."

Ah, the ignorance of the small pond Perchie people is so cute. I’ve owned and competed Shires and competed Clydes…in-hand and driving…in draft and ADS rated shows.

I don’t bother with the draft shows now, not worth the bother due to small minds and the scotch bottom people…too many judges who don’t have a clue of how to judge driving or under-saddle classes. If you want real driving competition, show at ADS rated shows (and they do have draft classes with actual requirements). You’ll have better competition and higher levels of competition at the ADS shows. Note: Everyone wears an apron except for draft commercial classes in ADS shows.

Draft driving show 4-in-hands can be interesting, but psycho drafts, overchecked, wild eyed and not evenly in draft are the watchword of most draft only shows. Hackneys on steroids applies to the big shows and how the horses go…

I do put my money where my mouth is…sponsoring classes in draft shows where the circus wagon people aren’t welcome. No scotch bottom abuse, no scotch collars…real drafts with real owners not abusing their horses to win a ribbon. If you want to learn how to drive and show with some real competition…hit the ADS shows.

Trakehner why the need to be neagtive and insulting? The OP may go this show, think it is great and really want to get into it, or may go eh, not for me. There are people out there who think equestrain sports that push an animal to extreme physical limits and possibly put it into dangerous circumstances, such as eventing, combined driving, and endurance, are awful and inhumane. Lots of things you can do with your drafts, how you would show at a ADS carriage pleasure driving show is different than a draft hitch show which is also different than a field day which again is different from a pulling contest. The horse world need to be more supportive of itself and all the things we like to do with our horses, no matter how different it may seem compared to what one individually prefers.

I think it’s pretty safe to say that at the upper levels of any equine sport, and the different types of driving are no different IMO, you will see things that you don’t like in regards to the treatment of the animal. Man’s pathway to glory is strewn with the bones of the horse and all that. I’ve seen equal levels, though different types, of abusive behavior (in my opinion) at big draft horse shows and high levels of combined driving. Which is worse? I don’t know.

Not everyone at draft shows abuses their animals. I like to do a lot of different things with my horses, including ADS approved events. You will never get me to like the driving aprons, as I think they are actually dangerous, but I wear them in ADS events AND in open driving shows. I am trying to learn all the different ADS rules, not just to be competitive but also to develop a better sense of “belonging” with the light horse folks. My Clydes are definatley NOT circus horses, they’ve actually gotten “8s” for their bending in dressage, I make sure they are toitally fit to do the marathonsractice cones a lot, do scurries and, alothough I typically have the biggest horse (one is 18-3) I often take the shortest path on cones and don’t knock over balls. Although it is obvious some people on this board don’t think they can learn from others, I look to others to learn about how they do things. The OP said he wants to drive in a draft show. ADS means ABSOLUTELY nothing at those shows. Even the big ones. If you don’t like the draft show, then don’t enter. As for ADS having draft classes, that is fairly new and it is much appreciated by those of us who like to do more than just the draft shows. Personally, I think I can compete in the horse category with my guys but other draft-drivers feel they need to have the longer marathon time. And for a while, I actually thought we could all have an intelligent “conversation” on this board without someone feeling the need to bash the pursuits other have chosen. Silly me! Not all of us will be going to the Olympics or even WEG, but we have the right to enjoy our “little shows.”

That’s very true, and the point I was trying to make. Not everyone overchecks, not everyone puts their horses into a state of heat exhaustion, you’re more likely to see it at the top, in any equine sport.

You know me, Quelah, and you have seen my horses and seen me drive. I would not abuse my horses for any ribbon or all the money in the world. I may never get to “the top” of my sport but I will sure have fun!

S![](de tracked to shoeing practices with Clydesdales: Couping/Scotch bottoms

Scotch bottoms or couping is indeed a controversial matter and so much so that there was consultation going through parliament to consider actually making it illegal. There was consultation and involvement of interested parties and independent professional experts and even a study which meant there was independent horseshoeing evaluation tests to compare the gait and characteristics of a Clydesdale horse before and after shoeing with traditional (and controversial) Scotch bottom (or couping) techniques for the hind limbs.

As long ago as 2004 the International League for the Protection of Horses (now World Horse Welfare) and the Scottish Equine Welfare Seminar tapped into this shoeing evaluation system to test the horse.

“Couping” is nailing on hind shoes that don’t cover the horse’s inside heel area. Shaped like a sickle, the shoe has a large lateral calk and exaggerated quarter. These shoes have reportedly been used in Scotland for centuries to help Clydesdales with their work, such as navigating narrow rows of crops.

In the show horse world, it was used to present horses in-hand with hocks that touch; a tendency to sickle hocks being a desired conformation in the breed. With the help of the shoes and the horse’s generous feathers, an optical illusion is created: the hind legs appear as one limb.

The technique potentially Scotch bottoms or couping is indeed a controversial matter and so much so that there was consultation going through parliament to consider actually making it illegal. There was consultation and involvement of interested parties and independent professional experts and even a study which meant there was independent horseshoeing evaluation tests to compare the gait and characteristics of a Clydesdale horse before and after shoeing with traditional (and controversial) Scotch bottom (or couping) techniques for the hind limbs.

As long ago as 2004 the International League for the Protection of Horses (now World Horse Welfare) and the Scottish Equine Welfare Seminar tapped into this shoeing evaluation system to test the horse.

Critics (including an independent body made up of such as vets, farriers and also people who show and work Clydesdale horses) point out that the horses are now in modern hard-floored stables and transported to shows and that very few are actually routinely and frequently worked on soft ground.

Its supporters point out that its designed for a horse that works in soft ground, where the outside calk is helpful. They also argued that the horse is overall sound when shod this way.

Welfare advocates and the Scottish parliament became concerned about couping a few years ago, when a farrier blew the whistle on the practice and called for its elimination. It’s of particular concern with young horses as it’s been argued that it intentionally throws them off balance.

As a result, the Clydesdale Horse Society worked with master farrier David Wilson FWCF BEM and published revised guidelines for hoof balance and shoe coverage, but couping itself was not outlawed.

Haydn Price DipWCF pointed out to Hoofcare & Lameness that while the shoe itself is a radical instrument of imbalance, the hoof is generally prepared according to normal balance parameters, so the test horse can be legitimately tested barefoot, and shod in two different ways without having to re-dress the foot. Noted Clydesdale farrier James Balfour AWCF of Dundee, Scotland is preparing the test horse.

It was arising from that the Clydesdale Society revised it’s shoeing guidelines and to alleviate the need for legislation. It’s believed that guidelines managed by interested parties and education and existing regulations relating to horse and animal welfare and particularly the general provisions of the Farriers Act will cover the situation eg the fact that it is illegal to cause unnecessary suffering. So the push to separate legislation was dropped purely because it was judged that what existed and backed up by guidelines from the Breed Society, would protect the interests of the horse.

I’ve not seen a horse that has couping in years.

I was at the Royal Highland show which is the largest entry just last June and with a farrier’s class and nothing there .

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a205/classic_carriages/DSCF0018.jpg)

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a205/classic_carriages/DSCF0019.jpg)

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a205/classic_carriages/DSCF0021.jpg)

Indeed it wouldn’t be so bearing in mind the Clydesdale Society’s revised guidelines for shoeing. It should be understood that these guidelines were published in order to address this controversial subject matter:

[I]Standard for show shoes on Clydesdale Horses with effect from March 22nd 2003.

The Well Balanced Foot

The correctly trimmed foot should allow frog pressure. This facilitates the absorption and distribution of concussion, thus minimising fatigue and wear to bones, joints and ligaments. The feet should be trimmed to suit the configuration of the leg and excessive flairs removed. Hind feet should be well balanced and trimmed to a natural shape without excessive flairs or distortions.

Shoes

Front Shoes: Front shoes should be fitted to give maximum support at the heels and the bevel should follow the contour of the well balanced foot.

Hind Shoes: The hind shoe should be fitted to the trimmed foot with an outside heel of no more than the thickness of the material. Inside of shoe to support the last bearing point of the foot. The bevel on the outside of the shoe should follow the contour of the outer edge of the wall.

Clips

Clips should be broad and should not terminate in a sharp point. They should relate to the width of the shoe and be fitted to conform to the configuration of the limb.

(These guidelines were drawn up for the Society by David Wilson Senior.)[/I]

Experience?

"First off, I’m a guy. I’ve ridden since I was 4 and I like girls. I’ve also fox hunt when I have a hunter, showed dressage at upper levels, jumped/x-country and now am driving for something new to do. "

Never once, since joining this forum have did this person mention driving drafts at a draft horse show that I could find -via searching through posts. But they did mention that they used to fox hunt with a Shire.

I guess this person must be incredibly modest but has been very busy driving draft horses at draft horse shows over the last six years. Amazing that they never once felt a need to share about their draft horse show experiences…until now.

I must be really stupid for inferring that they have limited experience in showing drafts in driving classes at draft horse shows. Sorry for my ignorance. I hope this person will accept my apologies for doubting his vast experiences on draft horse shows. He clearly is a leading expert on the subject.

Jill–we must just be going to shows that are way too SMALL for some individuals to get excited about! I guess at those really BIG shows, they use the ADS rules, wear aprons and think Scotch collars are icky.

Thomas–thanks for the great information on shoeing! I am going to look at the reference material when I have a little more time. Especially interesting since I have Clydesdales. As I have mentioned before, I have been doing some low-level combined driving and scurries with the big boys and I have had trouble with the bigger one interfering and clipping the inside of his back legs because the hocks are so close together. I bought a giant pair of interterence boots and they solved the problem. I do not go with the extreme shoes, but we do use heavier ones during the draft show season. My Clyde foals hocks are so close they actually touch, and I may be a bit more limnited in what I can do with him when he grows up.

So people can’t get over the “more is better” mentality, so they go to extremes that are detrimental to the horses. Personally, I have no intention of going that route, but I must say it is disappointing to be judged lower than the “extremists” in the show ring. That must be why I am enjoying combined driving (especially dressage) so much.

Yes Joan, I’ve seen your happy ponies :slight_smile: As you said, you (and certainly I) may never get to the top of the game in that ring at the huge shows (and I’ll probably never even show there!) but our horses like us, and at the end of the day, that’s what really matters.

I do confess a fondness for the lap robe, IMO it covers a multitude of sins, lol! Do you mean safety concern like getting caught up in it? Mine velcros in the back and I can whip that thing off like a stripper! Though if that’s what you mean I can see if you had to get out of the cart in a real hurry, it would be that second or two that you had to take it off would slow you down.

[QUOTE=Cielo Azure;5069594]

I guess this person must be incredibly modest but has been very busy driving draft horses at draft horse shows over the last six years… must be really stupid for inferring that they have limited experience in showing drafts in driving classes at draft horse shows. Sorry for my ignorance. I hope this person will accept my apologies for doubting his vast experiences on draft horse shows. He clearly is a leading expert on the subject.[/QUOTE]

Man, must have hit a nerve, eh? Trouble with people with ego problems with PhDs and rumored problems about one of your horses… Lots of info in the draft & Perchie world and people who know you.

COTH isn’t about draft horses. I dislike showing driving at full draft shows. too may small people like C Azure. scotch collars and circus wagons…not to mention poorly trained horses. I prefer ADS shows, judges and competition…it was fun to beat the “little guys” and not having to wallow with some of the Perchie experts.

[QUOTE=Trakehner;5073912]
Man, must have hit a nerve, eh? Trouble with people with ego problems with PhDs and rumored problems about one of your horses… Lots of info in the draft & Perchie world and people who know you.

COTH isn’t about draft horses. I dislike showing driving at full draft shows. too may small people like C Azure. scotch collars and circus wagons…not to mention poorly trained horses. I prefer ADS shows, judges and competition…it was fun to beat the “little guys” and not having to wallow with some of the Perchie experts.[/QUOTE]

If that was supposed to make sense, then it didn’t to me :no:

[QUOTE=Trakehner;5073912]
Man, must have hit a nerve, eh? Trouble with people with ego problems with PhDs and rumored problems about one of your horses… Lots of info in the draft & Perchie world and people who know you.

COTH isn’t about draft horses. I dislike showing driving at full draft shows. too may small people like C Azure. scotch collars and circus wagons…not to mention poorly trained horses. I prefer ADS shows, judges and competition…it was fun to beat the “little guys” and not having to wallow with some of the Perchie experts.[/QUOTE]

What the heck are you writing of? Please enlighten me, a smear campaign or a whisper campaign is just… nasty and malicious. So please, enlighten me? What “rumored problems” with one of my horses? So, who do you “know” who you write is saying things about me? Or was that meant as some sort of twisted blackmail, because that is what it sounds like.

B.T.W. I have never had a complaint about me at a show, never had a complaint filed with the Percheron Association, never had a breeding dispute, never had a customer who wasn’t happy with a horse that they bought from me, never had someone who wasn’t happy with my training or even had one returned after purchase. I am VP/BOD and on the show committee of our state draft horse association and have never had a complaint there either. Please… what “rumored” problem? and who is spreading such rumors? Or is this just you?

As to Ego. Nope -those who know me (and I don’t believe we have ever met) know that I am not a person with a big ego. I am a competent, smart person, who runs a successful company in a tough industry and I have worked with horses and animals (from the San Diego Zoo to the Brookfield Zoo to UC Davis) all my life. If that makes me have an “ego” problem in your book, that is ok by me. I don’t require respect from someone who likes “girls” (which pretty much says it all bout your attitude towards women on this forum). But why should I have to justify myself to you? You don’t even post your real name on your public profile. It is really easy to write poison pen letters when you are anonymous, isn’t it?

Basically, what I “see.” Is someone having a temper tantrum because they “padded” their resume about their experiences in driving and got caught at it. Now, they are throwing mud on the wall to see what will stick and to deflect attention away from their embarrassing mistake of getting caught in a lie. Personally, I think your attempt was a “fail” and crossed a line ethically.

I show, I use to enjoy it till it got to where I was placing well and people became snarky and snotty…then I knew it was time to move on to bigger and better things. When people would make off handed comments about how stuck up I was for coming to a plow day with a clean horse, clean tack and harness and my equipment in good repair, what was I trying to do, show them up? Or others whispering behind my back about my placings that I worked damn hard for…yea…I tend to agree with Trakehner.

I am getting into ADS driving and have gotten to meet many of the people in our driving club that I joined. What a breath of fresh air, no assumptions, honest people who genuinely care for their animals, who actually unhitch and clean their animals off before going to eat, who don’t look down on you for having things neat, clean and squared away and while many are educated people, don’t act stuffy or rude. And they are helpful. What really impressed me was when I asked the president if I could drive my team of Percherons to a restored farm wagon, she smiled and said of course. I showed some concern as in the past, have had people tell me that the sound of the chains on the traces could spook a carriage horse, she then chuckled and said “Well, if that happens then our horses need more training don’t they?” I doubt this will happen as everyone had amazing harness horses.

As for the apron, yes, it can get hot underneath them but they had their purpose. This is what the German National Equestrian Federation Handbook says:

“The apron protects the driver’s legs down to just below the knee from being soiled by the greased reins. It also prevents the ends of the reins from falling between the driver’s legs. The apron may consist of a small woolen blanket, or it may be made of thick drill or linen and be tailored to fit. In sporting driving and competitions, the colour should tone in with that of the vehicle and seat cushions.”

So there is a reason for it, whether we like it or not. To the OP, go and have fun and enjoy yourself. I am sure you will have a great time and do well in your endeavors…

[QUOTE=Trakehner;5073912]
Man, must have hit a nerve, eh? Trouble with people with ego problems with PhDs and rumored problems about one of your horses… Lots of info in the draft & Perchie world and people who know you.

COTH isn’t about draft horses. I dislike showing driving at full draft shows. too may small people like C Azure. scotch collars and circus wagons…not to mention poorly trained horses. I prefer ADS shows, judges and competition…it was fun to beat the “little guys” and not having to wallow with some of the Perchie experts.[/QUOTE]

i find when people make a statement like that they lack expreince and dont understand the full driving concept of each of the classes shown and lack the expreince of what required of there horses/ponies when shown

so people tend to start of with something they can handle which is great as its a start on the dispiline in question, and i also find that anyone that drives the big boys as a profession are the most helpful people around as they really love there sport there horses and there carriages as there is a work of art making it all come together on a show day be it big neddy classes or small neddy classes
and all the people that i know that drive the big boys as in the huge horses lie shires, perceron, suffolk punches etc

have also driven the smaller type and have shown in a selection of classes
with various ponies as well as the smaller horse, and ponies as dinky as shetlands, and as driving is in there blood as a frill and excitment then they have stopped there,
they have also competed and some still do, at x/c obticals and scurries etc

and it still doesnt stop there they often are the very people that have the neddies for other things like wedding and funerals which again is being shown to a very high standard

hes the groom on the back nearest to you
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs417.snc4/47982_10150245254590061_750355060_14530436_8310368_n.jpg

an here competing hes on the back
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs227.snc4/38686_460100537931_549097931_6493928_2194237_n.jpg

hes driving a cob
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-ash1/v170/77/13/750355060/n750355060_2106125_7464.jpg

royal winsor 2010
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs585.snc3/30847_10150175709950061_750355060_12496201_979844_n.jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs238.snc1/8534_258324340060_750355060_8837211_3652475_n.jpg

going to do a funeral
matey driving
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-sf2p/v170/77/13/750355060/n750355060_2106116_4614.jpg

now i am rusty dusty driver but do know that peeps with the big ones do compete and also do gerneral all round things when required and the the ability to drive anything big or small
and i love watching driving classes the turnout is brillient in all classes

GSK

What does the term “Neddy” mean, I don’t think we use it over here?

[QUOTE=Cielo Azure;5075934]
GSK

What does the term “Neddy” mean, I don’t think we use it over here?[/QUOTE]

neddy- horse or pony

didnt think about it really but i know a few more people that drive and show and work there horses but forgot that i knew them lol silly billy that i am

sooo i showed today. it was fun. i was overly nervous until i got in the cart and then i was great. i was freaking out before though. yesterday when everyone else was showing i did the most amazing tail knots ever, today there were sh!t because i was too shakey.

http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#!/video/video.php?v=10150267559100294&ref=mf

i hope you can see this video. it’s my driving. I’m driving the big dapple grey.

Ralph is my horse. He’s only 5 years old. As a three year old he was a wheeler from a hitch in washington and then we bought him. for two years he was in our paddock and then we used him on the street doing tours a few times a few months ago. he’s been at home for a while with no work (a few months maybe?) anyway. he did great. one of the girls placed 1st in her class with him.

This is Sophie and Ralph in the junior class
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs609.snc4/58975_427203105973_616670973_5439634_7327854_n.jpg

There was no warm up ring and I’d never driven ralph. Neither had sophie. We both did well, I think.

Have a look at the video and tell me what you thought of my driving. If you can’t see it for any reason, i’ll try to get another link to it - somehow.

more ralph

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs214.ash2/47715_427201830973_616670973_5439555_8122284_n.jpg