Help... New Arena-Need Advice!

[narco123]

I just put in a new dressage ring going straight out of the USDF “Underfoot” book and going off of arenas that I do like and do not like in our area. I am located in Washington state about an hour outside of Seattle so we do get rain! It is 70’x160’ outdoor with a 1%-2% slope from one long side sloping to the other (had to do this because of the location).

It consists of:
A compacted (used a 5 plus ton vibrating roller) sub base of good soil with many rocks which sat for six months over winter (and rarely puddled in the downpours). Next non-woven needle punched 8 oz geotextile was lied down. Then four-five inches of 3/8th minus crushed rock was put over, laser leveled, rolled with same giant vibrating roller. Sat for a few days while we kept the sprinklers on it, then it was rolled again. Then we put down our sand retaining boards/timbers around the entire perimeter. Then the ASTM C-33 washed builders sand was brought in at 2 inches deep.

This is where we were confused… in our area we had three choices of sand;
-pit-sand which was unwashed, dirty and could contain rocks
-the washed builders sand (which we used)
-and ultra fine sand.

We chose the C-33 which has fines and it has some larger particles that at the time was perfect. I have not ridden on the arena yet. However, when I run on the arena, walk ect. the sand is too loose. When you run your toe slides down, and if you really get going quick you hit the base with your toe. (I am sure you can imagine me running around doing my dressage tests! ha) Anyway, even though I love the arena, I get nervous having the sand so loose and un-stabile and I worry having my horses hit the base and rip it up, or taking the risk of them pulling a muscle. I have watered the arena too see if it helps and it definitely does make the sand more stabile, however I still feel it a bit shifty.

So my question is: I want a sand footing that I ride on top of…NOT THROUGH. And my arena right now feels like I will be riding through it a bit. So I am looking to purchase an additive such as felt or fibers.

With the sand I have (the C-33 builders sand), is the felt going to mix in and incorporate enough to create that firm structured footing texture that my horses hooves won’t sink deep into? I know that I was supposed to have the ultra fine sand if I wanted the perfect GGT mixture, but I definitely am not ripping out my builders sand and taking it out. There is a local supplier in my area who sells Geotextile Felt whom I would prefer to buy from, but am worried my sand won’t mix well with their product.

Does anyone have experience mixing a C-33 builders sand with felt?Did it work out well? I have a sample coming in the mail of Arena Aid from Premier footings however if I was to purchase a product from them, shipping it from a different state makes the total go over my budget.

Thanks for advice in advance!

[Ambitious_Kate]

I don’t know everything, but my feeling is, as a consumer who has looked at this kind of thing, never installed, but looked, it sounds to me like your sand is not rough and angular, but round and smooth. That fine sand part made me wince. If you have round sand particles, it will be slippery as hell, and you will roll around in it.

I would personally go with crushed blue stone for a topping, it stays put, drains to the next layer well, and you can ride, jump, do anything in it in the rain. I do not like sand at all - because of the stress it puts on soft tissue.

What you can add to it? I have no idea. I would investigate something like crushed blue stone, because that is what I would have wnated to start with. I don’t know what you can add now, though. I would worry that you might have to take alot or most of that sand out.

I would think adding something like shredded leather or rubber would be deepening this footing, which I would be veeeerrrry wary of. I don’t like anything much deeper than 2 inches, myself. Very stressful on the joints. Good luck.

[Gloria]

If your sand is loose and unstable, I do have to wonder whether it is the round sand too. If you pick up your sand in your hand, is it “gritty” or is it “rolling around”? You want gritty. With riding arena, you need angular sand, and unfortunately most quarries don’t understand this. I don’t know how many quarries I called around here, and none understood what I meant, “angular sand”. Finally I had to tell them that I did NOT want any naturally occurrence sand (river sand being the most common here), and I ended up having to call a quarry two hours away to get in the sand we want. For us, it is crushed granite, and very tough.

As to whether felt can help, you need to talk to manufacturer. My understanding is that, you need prefect moisture content for felt to work. Too dry and the felt blows away. Too wet and you get soup. That is one reason I decided against it.

[RedmondDressage]

Funny - I was just about to post an arena thread too, and I’m probably in the same area as you (I’m an hour east of Seattle).

OP - do you mind posting or PMing me where you got your sand? I’m actually taking a field trip to a couple of places this weekend to look at some sand and I want to make sure I’m getting the right thing!

[Ambitious_Kate]

Well don’t get the sand the OP got. You need some kind of angular sand, like gloria said. I just forgot the term I wanted for it. You need some kind of crushed stone. If its natural sand its sand from water ways, ocean or river, and it will be round and you’re in deep doo doo with that, it will roll around and your horses will slip and slide. I have walked out of classes at horse shoes with round sand. I won’t put my horse on it, too easy to tear tendons and soft tissue. Not worth the risk for me. Hard on the horse.

[RedmondDressage]

That’s why I asked I want to know what to avoid!

Also - I am torn between starting my own thread or asking here (because I hate to start yet another arena thread today!)… So I’m gonna go ahead and ask here. I was planning to put in 2" of sand just like OP. I am also planning to add about 1" of rubber. Will 3" between the two be too deep? One thing I certainly don’t want to do is end up with too much footing!

[Gloria]

You do dressage, right, Redmond? I’d think 3" to be too deep. For dressage, I think you want to shoot for 1.5"~2" total. If I remember correctly, the recommendation for rubber mixture is 1/4 of the total depth, so if you are talking about 2" total, you want .5" of rubber. You do need to talk to the rubber manufacturer though. Another thing to consider is, it is far easier to add more, than take off, so start very very conservatively.

[RedmondDressage]

Yep - dressage junkie here! Thank you! Less footing also = less $$$ so that’s not terrible news

[redalter]

We are in the process of putting in our arena - outdoor - not super big, but enough.

We did fabric, with 6 inches of crushed blue stone, and then we are adding the new stuff ( I think it is ground up Nike sneakers). My once in a lifetime, not take a vacation for a couple of years, treat to … me.
We have been investigating and looking at a bunch of options for a year or so now.

[Calvincrowe]

FYI–there is no bluestone, crushed or otherwise, in the PNW. We deal in sand. Arena footing needs to be angular. RedmondDressage, have you talked with Arena Rehab in Seattle? ( Arena-Rehab.com) I bet they have the sources for the correct sand!

[ToN_Farm]

@narco123;8195176

Does anyone have experience mixing a C-33 builders sand with felt?Did it work out well? I have a sample coming in the mail of Arena Aid from Premier footings however if I was to purchase a product from them, shipping it from a different state makes the total go over my budget.

I have the angular sand with felt additive and I hate it!! However, it will stabilize the sand.

I did not add the fiber for stabilization though; I had hoped the fiber would help with compaction. My sand (which I thought was C33) was ok alone, but it compacts like stonedust.

With any of the felt additives, you have to keep them wet to mix well with footing. You also need to make sure your harrow will work well with the additive and not have it backing up in the tines.

My advice is not to add any fiber unless you know for sure you are going to like the result. The only way to do this is to see an installation in person. I realize the expense of removing your sand and getting the right kind, but you will wish you did if you spend several thousand on fiber that doesn’t work out.

[narco123]

ToN Farm- Did you have a felt such as GGT? with your sand? or was it something else that is more fibery/stringy? Also, are you a dressage rider? And where are you located?

Thank you for your reply. It helps to have someone who has experienced the felt with sand to give their advice. I have ridden on one arena with the felt and sand, and I loved it. Just hard to find an arena which has the exact sand that I have mixed with felt.

Right now I am leaning towards ArenaAid from Premier Footings…if I decide to get an additive that is.

[Watermark_Farm]

A year ago I changed out the footing in my all-weather arena and have learned a lot in the process. I have silica sand with GGT. It has not been a totally smooth process, hopefully you can learn some from me.

My advice to you is to get your sand dialed in before you add GGT.

1. Test % of coarse to fines in your existing footing. Take 1 cup samples from several locations around the area. Put each into a glass jar, add water, stir it up, then let sit on a sunny windowsill. Once the material has settled, you can look at the ratio of coarse to fines (silt) as they will settle in layers. I started out with 80% coarse to 20% fines, then upped it to 70% coarse to 30% fines. My footing guy said he’s done arenas with as much as 40% fines. Your sand should be angular.

2. Geotextile footing additive requires fines and it will in fact ‘eat’ some of your fines as over time the fines bind to it.

3. Geotextile additive can be tricky to blend in and may tend to sit in the top of your footing. In a perfect world the sand/GGT is pad blended and then brought in, or you do what I did and spread the GGT in a thin layer, water the arena, then drag (with the special GGT drag of course) for hours on end. And repeat. And even then it’s only blended down 1/2 way…

4. Don’t do what I did and put in 3" of sand, no matter what anyone says about “properly blended footing will be so tight you could put in a foot and it wouldn’t matter.” It’s a waste of money. Put in 1.5 to 2" footing MAX. Easy to add, a real bitch to take away (especially if you have GGT in that top half!). I’m currently trying to get my builder back to strip my arena and then re-spread the footing to 2 inch depth, aka get rid of 1 inch of sand and mix that GGT in once and for all. I’m in CA and on a well and in a drought, and keeping 3" of sand watered is not cool.

5. Embrace the roller! Air = cushion. Air = loose. Air = pumping water in the rainy season. I bought a cheap Sears lawn roller and filled it with water, and use that to roll my arena. Settles/packs the footing great and packs the footing so I can ‘seal’ arena prior to a rain. I am currently looking for a “real” arena roller.

6. Loose footing feels deep.

7. WATER is a component of footing. .

8. Final result is that you want footing that shows hoofprints with no more than 1" to 1.5" depth at the toe.

9. I’m sure there’s more wisdom I could impart, but at this point I’m so depressed that I think I am going to go have a drink.

[ToN_Farm]

OMG Watermark, I need to ask you some questions about all you wrote, but I need to clear my head. Too early in the morning.

[QUOTE=narco123;8195969]
ToN Farm- Did you have a felt such as GGT? with your sand? or was it something else that is more fibery/stringy? Also, are you a dressage rider? And where are you located? [/QUOTE] Narco, I have close up pictures of the fiber I have. When get time, I will upload them to photo bucket or someplace where you can see them. Unless you have a public email where I can send them.

I’m in NJ and my ring is an indoor. Dressage only. In 2011 I had all my footing (at the time sand/rubber) removed and the base fixed. I added 2-2.5 inches of sand. It started compacting badly. I decided to buy GGT. Turns out that what I bought was not GGT but an alternative. I’m unhappy with the type of fiber, the sand, and the whole installation. That said, I’m anal about footing and I do not like that expensive footing that doesn’t need watering

At present, I am awaiting a quote for removing all the footing, putting down new sand (which will be a beach round sand) and real GGT. I’ve already gotten the GGT estimate and it is 14k. I think I’ll be looking at over 30k, maybe more. I may just give up and live with what I have because I’m old and won’t be riding that much longer.

I will be able to look at the sand/ggt rings the new excavator did as they are local. IMO, you must see what you a getting in advance.

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

I’m still in the planning stages, but just wanted to thank everyone who has commented. Great thread!

[Mosey_2003]

TrotTrotPumpkin, PM me if you want to talk about local terms/suppliers of sand, since we’re both in the Midwest

[Kathy_Nebel]

I found lots of good information on this forum when we built our last barn, so thought I would finally register and try to “pay back” with things I have learned.

I had a dressage arena built a couple years ago. I handed the contractor – who had spent a lifetime building arenas – the Under Foot booklet. He smiled and handed it back without opening it and told me that if he put in as much sand as they recommended, I would be complaining about it being too deep. He recommended 1 3/4 inches of sand, and dang if he wasn’t right. I used manufactured sand, as it is angular and doesn’t roll.

The arena I used for years at my previous farm was deeper and of river sand. It rolled underfoot. Think of loosing the hind legs at a turn at the canter.

Love my new arena. And thank you COTHers for all the previous help and tips for building a barn at my new farm