Help training a socially stunted shelter dog?

[Lazy_Palomino_Hunter]

I know this is long, so if anyone doesn’t want to read the whole thing I included a Reader’s Digest version at the end.

A friend just adopted a little 18 month old female beagle named Quinn. She’s been passed around area shelters for pretty much her entire life. I honestly see a lot of similarities between this dog and a dog that another friend rescued after he spent 5 years as a stud dog in a puppy mill. It makes me really sad.
[B]

The good:[/B]

She has a lovely temperament that I think will lend itself toward her being a GREAT pet some day: she’s very quiet, very low energy, sweet, and submissive. All things considered, she’s reasonably well socialized on terms of simple exposure to people and dogs (read: she quietly accepts everyone without barking/hiding/shaking).
[B]

The bad:[/B]

We cannot find anything that motivates her. She’s not food motivated at all. We’ve tried a dozen types of commercial dog treats, cooked chicken/liver/beef/bacon/hot dog, cheese, peanut butter… the only foods she’ll consider eating are hot dog, chicken, and kibble. Even then, her interest in foods is vague at best (she’ll hesitantly consider taking/eating it, but only if inside with absolutely no distractions).

She has zero idea how to interact in a meaningfully with or “read” people. She reacts exactly the same way to every single person, regardless of differences in their appearance or emotion: she flips over for belly rubs. I’m sure this started as a fear/submissive response and then was reinforced with belly rubs. Her tail isn’t tucked and she doesn’t try to run away… she just wags pretty hard and flips over (still wagging). If a person pays literally any attention to her, it’s impossible to keep her upright. Even if you set her right side up, she just immediately flips over again. She’s as happy as a(n upside down) clam.

She sort of independently plays with toys, but can’t play with a person holding a toy. She views anything at her level as something that should be mouthed and considered as a toy, much like a very young puppy. My friend is correcting and redirecting her to proper toys, but because Quinn doesn’t “get” verbal praise and doesn’t want food, she’s learning very slowly.

She’s proving very difficult to potty train. It’s obvious she is accustomed to pottying in her run at the shelter, while using walks for pursuing mental stimulation. My friend had her for a week before she approached me for help, with the impetus being Quinn had literally pottied inside 100% of the time, despite ~2 hours of walking per day. Initially I thought maybe she was fearful outside, but after walking her myself I think it’s more that she’s so thoroughly distracted when outside (sniffing/eyeing chipmunks, squirrels, birds, etc) that she doesn’t want to “waste time” doing something she can just as easily do inside at a less exciting time.
[B]

Where we stand now:[/B]

To help with the housetraining, my friend is now tethering the dog to herself when they’re inside so she can catch, correct, and redirect her to pottying outside. This is helping somewhat, but the progress is crazy slow. I walked her twice while my friend was at work the other day (two 45 minute walk around 10:30 and 2:30) and she literally didn’t go at all. Between 3:15 and when my friend go home at 5:15, she peed in her crate.

I started off thinking clicker training would be a great avenue to take. I gave my friend instructions on how to “load” the clicker before I came over the first time, but it didn’t work very well due to the dog’s hesitance to eat anything. We then switched over to a “nothing in life is free” program to artificially enhance the value of food. Even when the dog was very hungry (several days of very little food), on a scale of 1-10 I’d say she was motivated about a 3 by the food. My friend didn’t feel that the trade off for motivation was enough to justify how little food she was getting.
[B]

What I’m looking for help with:[/B]

Does anyone have any ideas for training a dog that is immune to praise, wholly uninterested in food and toys, and can’t even stay upright within 3’ of a human? She has the basics of target training, and we’re starting to introduce a shaped “sit” (no command yet). After 2 weeks of daily work I’m still not convinced she REALLY understands what the click means, and I don’t have a clue how to increase its value without a reward that speaks to her.

If it were my dog, I’d continue with NILIF for at least a few more weeks, but my friend would like to avoid this if possible.
[B]

Short Version:[/B] Friend adopted an 18 month old female Beagle who has spent her whole life in a shelter. Dog is unmotivated by food or toys and doesn’t understand excitement or praise. We’re looking for tips for teaching her how to understand how to interact with and learn from humans.

[SuckerForHorses]

Other than the hard to house train (which sounds like this dog is basically at puppy stage of the training even though she is older than a small puppy) I don’t see much “bad” there…I woudl just keep doing what you’re doing.

[Lazy_Palomino_Hunter]

It’s the motivation factor that has me stumped. I think we need a reward that REALLY speaks to her, but I’ve tried everything in my toolkit to no avail.

My friend has no way to reward the dog for pottying outside (since she won’t take food and doesn’t care about praise), and even when training inside has very little to work with (since the most positively this dog views anything offered is with a vauge “meh”).

At the moment this feels like riding a bike too slowly. I think once we find a good reward it’ll help us gain momentum…

[wendy]

Most dogs don’t actually LIKE praise, but they quickly learn while very young that “praise” = “good stuff for me”, much like loading a clicker- this poor dog just never managed to learn that.
Maybe you should take a step back and try to “load the praise”- Praise, feed dinner. Praise, open the door to go for a walk. Praise, belly rubs. Praise, send the dog to smell the ground. Praise right before anything that could possibly be perceived as “good” by the dog happens?
And instead of actively training the dog right now and doing NILF, maybe spend a few weeks doing the much kinder, gentler, and more effective “Much in life is free” approach? namely, “catching the dog being good” multiple times a day and offering praise, cookies, toys? Eventually the dog will figure out that his behavior is what is triggering the good stuff, and then he’ll be ready to be actively trained.
the housebreaking is going to be a nightmare- most dogs housebreak not because of owner praise, but because they have a strong instinct to not potty where they sleep and eat; once you break that instinct by forcing the dog to potty in bed, you have no tools to work with.

Watch the dog carefully and you’ll figure out things the dog likes- you might have to be inventive to use them in training. Chasing squirrels? riding in the car? (yeah, I had one dog who loved riding in the truck so much that we would “jackpot” his training success by running eagerly together to the truck and taking a spin around the block)

another thing you can try is have her watch other dogs being trained: put her in a crate and have her watch you play “101 things to do with a box” with another dog. Then put that dog up, and let her out- most dogs, after watching another dog get treats and attention for messing around with an object will immediately run to the box and start trying to do something to it.

[LauraKY]

As far as the social aspect…time. My poor collie was shell shocked when I adopted her. It took almost a year for her true personality to shine. I’d stick with the tethering as well.

[vixen]

With the housetraining: don’t take her in until she goes to the bathroom (or take her in for a minute or two then right back out). Yeah, it’s a pain in the ass, and it might take a while (one memorable walk I was out there for almost two hours), but she eventually will go and then you can praise her for it.

Have you tried cat toys? Some dogs go nuts for them. I had a Collie who would play for HOURS with a ribbon on a stick. Try to think outside the box with the food rewards too. Try something like cooked carrots, freeze-dried game, etc.

When you say “just adopted” – what does that mean, like how long has she had the dog? My experience with shelter dogs is that they take a while to come out of their “shells.” My current dog was super, super quiet when I first got him, for almost a month, to the point where I wondered if there was something medically wrong with him. Now he’s much more comfortable and confident, but it took a long time for him to get there.

[GraceLikeRain]

I agree with Wendy’s approach. I would also take up all toys since she shows some interest. If she wants to play with a toy then it is with a person present. Maybe start out with a ribbon chaser or other distance toy so she doesn’t feel confined and over the next few weeks work up to playing with toys up close. Susan Garrett has a great article about installing toy drive that might be useful down the road.

I have a completely unfood-motivated dog so I’ve worked very hard to develop a good toy drive and at almost 2 I can use a toy to train any behavior. I think it is worth it to slowly uncover that toy drive. It will also help her build a stronger relationship with her owner.

Unfortunately it doesn’t sound like there is an easy answer but hopefully she will start to improve over the coming weeks and months.

[BostonBanker]

What about something like a rabbit skin as a motivational toy? Even better for a lot of dogs, tie it to a lunge whip to make a flirt pole. Even my super not-toy motivated dog goes nuts for that. Be sure not to shove the toy at her at all, make it run away like prey.

Or will she run with you? If you make happy noises and take off running (not far) calling to her, will she come along?

I’m not a huge fan of NILIF, and I think in this situation, it is sort of ill-advised. For NILIF to work, you need to have something the dog wants. There really isn’t much this dog seems to want badly enough to work for it. I agree with Wendy that the “catching her being good” might be better (and I generally like it better anyway), at least if you can find something rewarding for her.

Other food ideas - tuna fish, baby food, wet dog food. All gross to deal with, but often tempting even to picky dogs. You can put the baby food and wet dog food into camping food tubes and squeeze it out for them. Whipped cream? As long as the noise from the can doesn’t bother her. Easy Cheese works the same way.

[Guin]

Let me throw this out there. Our dog who we adopted in February seemed to be unmotivated by food. He wouldn’t eat my homemade dog treats. He wouldn’t eat Milkbones. He just did not care. When we started working with our dog trainer and told her he wasn’t food-motivated, she laughed and said we hadn’t found the right food yet. Lo and behold: Cheese. Cut-up hotdogs. Cut-up stick salami. Beagle beast must have some sort of food trigger that you haven’t found yet. Steak bits? Bacon crumbles? CAT crunchies? Keep trying.

[cowboymom]

Whisker Lickins soft (not crunchy) cat treats are a big hit here, they’re very smelly which appeals to my houndy dogs.

[vacation1]

She’s cute. It might not be the institutional background, entirely or at all. Some dogs just do not bond fast at all. My last dog (husky/terrier) was standoffish for a long time (a year) and also not food-motivated. Well-behaved and very well housebroken, so it wasn’t as troublesome as OP’s friend’s situation, but still rather frustrating. I did tethering with her, too, and it seemed to help. I think what helped the most was getting out and walking her a LOT. This can be easier at different times in your life - I was in school, so had plenty of free time - but some dogs seem to demand proof of a partnership before they’ll relate to you or invest emotionally, and physically roaming around with them seems to work as that proof.

I think I might quit trying to formally train her for the moment, and concentrate on simply interacting with her at the level she’s comfortable with (even if that’s just walking behind her on a walk) and on just going out and staying out until she potties. Not easy, but I think this one just needs more time.

[hastyreply]

Lots of good advice. I evaluated a dog in a shelter for a BC rescue who was totally shut down. He wouldn’t look at me or respond in any way to me when I sat in his kennel. I told the rescue that all I could guarantee is he wouldn’t be adopted and would be put to sleep if they didn’t pull him. He ended up staying with his foster. He bonded with one of her dogs and would follow her and they used that dog to teach the shutdown dog.

Do you have a dog you could take over there with you when you walk that dog? That might help the dog learn what you want. I would also be tempted to place the dog’s waste in an area in the yard I want the dog to use, to scent the area. She might try pottty pads inside to use to help the dog transition from going inside to out.

The dog is a beagle, so I would go for scent to motivate. I like the rabbit fur idea. There maybe scents that can be applied to toys ( check hunting dog sites). Maybe a used toy that another dog has slobbered and played with a lot.

This dog won’t instantly bond, sounds like a foster child who is just waiting to be passed on to the next person. It will take time and a lot of patience.

[bdj]

I totally agree with everyone who suggests that NILIF may not be the best approach for this dog at this point in time. It sounds like she’s only been in the new place for a little while and is just waiting to get moved on again - because that may be about all she’s got experience with at this point.

That said, I’d quit on trying to “train” her, and focus on making her feel happy, comfortable and confident in her new home and let her dictate interactions with her new people. If she goes “belly up” and that’s NOT what you want her to do, don’t react - no belly rub, or trying to put her back upright, just let her do what she’s going to do and then when she gets vertical again, “Oh hey, hi there Little Beagle, how ya doin?” and some gentle petting/scratching/whatever she seems to like best - keep it very casual and low key and if she flops, the interaction ceases, and then starts up again when she gets vertical again. It may take a while, but she’ll eventually figure it out - it’s not that bad stuff happens when she flops, it’s that good stuff happens when she keeps her four on the floor.

As far as the potty training? I’m going to suggest that she NOT go out for long walks until she goes - right now, outside time/walks don’t equate to going to the bathroom at all - they’re fun and interesting explorations for her(good on you for figuring that out). Your friend may need to limit outside time to potty breaks in a very specific location until she’s established that trips outside = go potty and THEN play/wander/explore. That’s going to mean manymanymany trips outside over the course of the day - as if she was a very young puppy, but at least they’ll be short, and no more 2 hour marathons. Go outside, right to the designated potty area, say “go potty” and if she goes - “Yay! Lets go for a walk!”, if not “OK, back in the house” and try again later (which could be in a half hour or so). If possible, you might even see if you can get one of your dogs to use the “designated potty zone” just before LMB (Little Miss Beagle) goes out to use it - the desire to mark is pretty powerful for some dogs and that might give her some incentive.

Wendy’s got it right when she says it’s really hard to fix a dog who’s willing to mess in their crate. It can be done! It’s going to be more difficult if your friend has to be out of the house (at work, etc.), but that’s ok. Given that LMB is apparently now “un-crate trained”, I’d go back to young puppy training and set her up in an ex-pen with pee pads. It’s not ideal, but if friend has to work, and since LMB may not actually have very good bladder control - if she’s been kennel kept, she’s never really had to learn that - I’d set her up in an ex-pen with pee pads in one corner/end. That way she has a place to go where she won’t have to sit in it and you can re-establish her desire to “not mess where she sleeps/eats/lives”. Once she’s more reliable about pottying outside and she’s got better control, you can start bringing the crate back.

Good luck - LMB is very cute, and the hard work will be worth it for your friend! (And thanks for helping your friend out, too!)

[Marshfield]

No advice, only sympathy. My tech adopted a shelter dog who was about 12 weeks old when she arrived at a local rescue and probably 5 months when he took her home. Sadie is scared of the world. We have tried all the treats I can think of and we still can’t get her to take a treat from hand. Training has been slow. I am one of about four people she doesn’t cower to. I made the approved list because she likes my dogs.

[stargzng386]

I agree with bdj on housetraining. My parents country dog came to stay with us while they were on vacation and she was completly overwhelmed by our suburban smells that she had a hard time going to the bathroom too. She was literally sniffing every blade of grass and was way too distracted to bothering peeing. When she did pee she would literally walk while peeing to smell the next patch of grass. Long walks did not help so we took her to one patch of grass and just stood there until she went to the bathroom. As soon as she went potty then we went for the walk to sniff everything. She learned pretty quickly that the one patch we went to was boring after sniffing it a few times and she would potty and then get the reward of exploring the neighborhood.

[arab_roots]

I agree with the postet who mentioned putting a rabbit pelt on a flirt pole. My German wired hair pointer was totally not interested in toys…unlike my Dutchie. I had to make the toy super exciting before he would really play with it. I adopted him from the humane society. He its supposedly bird trained. Bruno loves going after vermin, I found that out after he found a gopher and killed it. I literally had to drag him away from it. His food drive is mediocre at best but if I build excitement for that toy then he its good to go.

My friend who trains working dogs for a living told me that if a dog has hunted live animals before then it its really hard to get them as excited about any thing else.