My 12 year old TB mare has been consistantly resistant when I ask for canter departs. She hollows her back and either raises her head or swishes her tail. She is sound and healthy. She is becomeing much more connected in the trot and relaxed in the walk but still struggles to carry herself in the canter. In my last lesson, my trainer told me not to ask her to canter by bringing my outside leg back because in higher levels this is the same aid for haunches in. She told me to play around with other ways of asking her ie: asking more with my seat, more inside leg, leg yeilding to the rail then ask. She also (tenitively) suggested that I try riding her in a German martingale. Yesterday I did so and she was still resistant and a bit paniky. Any suggestions?
Find a new trainer. That’s my suggestion to make a long story short.
Make absolutely sure you are pulling your thighs out and away from her back when you ask… resistance, hollowing, and tail wringing sounds like she is getting mixed messages from you. (i.e., you’re giving her leg/seat to canter, but your thighs are depressing her back and stopping her forward momentum).
I would not try to fix this problem with a German martingale, and that suggestion, too, makes me question the trainer.
I know it’s probably me, because she has had some lovely departs at times! I will work on lightening up my thunder thighs!
fear not mcorbett… I, too, have “thunder thighs” and have spent the last 10 years trying to keep them out of my horses’ backs!
Have you worked her on the ground? How is her canter depart if you are lungeing or long lining? Is she still resistant and swishing her tail? I would do the groundwork first and see how she does with her canter work to rule out that she is not sore. If she isn’t sore this is also a great way to work with her before riding. Hope this helps.
My trainer asked me the same question: if she was balanced and non-resistant on the lounge. It had been awhile since I’d lounged her (or riden her consistantly truthfully) so I wasn’t sure. The day after my lesson I lounged her with not too tight side reins to see how she would react w/o my on her back. She wasn’t prompt, didn’t stay round, and often ran into the canter but she didn’t wring her tail. I haven’t had her hocks checked but she is sound in general.
Well it sounds like it might help to start adding the ground work into her training. Maybe even giving her a week or two of just lungeing with side reins or long lining rather than riding right now. I have seen it make a world of difference.:yes: Plus if she is sore somewhere you will also be able to see that too. It really sounds like some good ground work is what she needs right now. I think you will really see a tremendous difference in her training once you have her soft, round, and making smooth transitions when lungeing. Once she has that on the ground you will find it so nice to ride. Have fun and hope this helps.
No to German martingale (IMHO). My young and rather unco-ordinated WB went thru a resistence to canter aid stage, he would ignore ignore ignore then explode. His issue was lack of strength and balance, once those got better his canter depart improved and I stopped yelling at him with my aids (we had a little vicious circle going).
If horse is in sporadic work, she may just be finding it physically difficult to do the transition. I would also consider hock xrays just to rule that out, if you are at all suspicious of that. If the horse used to have good canter transitions and then became resistant I would be suspect a lameness issue.
I too would work her on the longe with carefully adjusted side reins.
I also would develop her shoulder in, and haunches in, strengthening her back end. Then I would ask for transitions from the shoulder in. I would for awhile ask consistently in the same spot. A little anticipation can be useful.
Agree with the above posts re developing strength by lunging. Ask her for a canter depart, get the canter, then ask her to trot in a few strides. Doing mulitple canter departs will help her to develop the hind quarters, and keep her from just running flat around the circle. Add poles on the ground (either set for trot poles, or just single poles at the 15 minute marks on the circle), these will encourage her to lift her back, which will also improve her strength. I would not worry about the canter depart under saddle, until it is consistent on the lunge line in side reins. See how she does with doing 10 minutes of Transitions. As in, do a transition either up or down each circle. If she gets fast at the trot or losses her balance/concentration. Bring her back to a walk, ask for trot again, ask for canter, ask for trot, etc. Make it more about the transition, than about going forever in one gait. I love lunging for developing strength, w/out my interferring. The horse learns to balance themselves, and then you add your weight.
just about every upper level rider there is and the entire Spanish Riding School uses the outside leg back for haunches in, half pass, pirouettes, passage, piaffe and canter departs, plus flying changes, zig zags, etc. horse can tell difference between different things.
If horse is lifting head during transition sounds like your connection is not there, that transition is kind of a revealer, also some horses get the habit and one just needs to ride more forward, rounder, bending more.
Mozart’s post hits on almost all of the most common reasons for horses running and hollowing into the canter. It takes strength and balance to stay in rhythm and on the aids into the canter. And riders often make the problem worse by asking harshly, pushing the horse out of balance.
The one thing I will add is the technique and balance of the rider. In addition to not being harsh and pushing with your aids to canter, you need to be able to give a CLEAR aid at the right time, while staying in balance on the horse to allow the horse to go smoothly into the canter.
And yes, having the outside leg back is part of that aid. I also have to question the qualifications of your instructor who says not to put your outside leg back because of confusion with haunches in. Horses have NO trouble telling the difference between canter and haunches in, because although your outside leg is back on both, the aids are different.
I agree with the others on working on the lunge in side reins for a while until the horse is stronger and doing all transitions properly. When riding I would leave the canter transitions alone for a while and work on walk/trot transtions, bending, and basic lateral work to get the horse more honestly on the aids.
When you are ready to try some canter transitions under saddle again, try asking with lighter aids: position to the inside, inside seat bone, inside leg at the girth, and outside leg back. And then sit still while keeping the inside leg to outside rein connection and allow rather than force the horse go into the canter.
Good luck!
I agree that you should try to find yourself another instructor. The one you have is not introducing you to the “classical aids”, and things will only get more confusing, frustrating and out of whack if you continue with the “trick pony” cues and aids.
When you are longeing on side reins, don’t make them too tight. The horse should be able to reach out and down. Technically, the inside side-rein should be a hole or two shorter. Do not use them at the walk because they interfere with the action of the horse too much. Leave the side reins clipped or buckled up on some part of your saddle or surcingle until you are ready for trot work and canter work.
As far as sitting the “canter depart”, one of the ways that I was taught was that you should have your weight equally on both seat bones to help keep your horse in balance while you use the outside leg “behind the girth” for the canter aid, while keeping your inside leg “on the girth”. That is a simple canter depart aid. There are more complex canter aids (a preceeding half-halt, developing and controlling ryhtym, developing a perfectly correct bend on the circle, and getting subtler at all of it) as you develop all of your aids. The actual placement of the aids will not change, but the degree (lighter, heavier, intermmitently, using just the inside hip, etc.) will change as you progress with all of the gaits and transitions and in developing your and your horse’s balance.
It all gets smoother and more rythmic and fun.
Using the outside leg to ask for rather than support a canter depart does lead to issues with upper level work IMO and that opinion is born of experience :uhoh: But that is another thread.
Let me preface my remarks with the comment that I am not the kind of rider that thinks most issues are related to the horse’s discomfort rather than training issues but…
Regarding the symptoms you are describing, I’d check how your saddle fits your horse particularly in my experience, with a TB. As a horse becomes more connected, they are learning to sort of swing their back up and lift their forehand a bit, especially at the canter. If the saddle is uncomfortable this often shows there first. Plus it is often the case that as they are making the kind of progress you talk about, the horse’s musculature through the back is changing. So a saddle that once fit well enough might not anymore.
If she is otherwise healthy, happy and sound, poor saddle fit can make her pretty uncomfortable through the back and withers. This will also influence how she presents in an examination of the hocks (though not on X-ray).
Ask me how I know this :rolleyes:… Many years ago I spent a lot of money with my (usually) good local vet - including hock injections (no changes on Xrays but the horse flexed positive because he was backsore doh!) for a young and developing horse (also a TB) that behaved exactly as you describe. Nothing seemed to resolve the problem. So I hauled a few hours to a large regional clinic for a nuke scan and the vet who did preliminary work up asked me to ride the horse. After I did, he checked the saddle fit and pronounced that to be the problem. I got my saddle refitted and like magic - no more problems. My local vet was mortified and offered to refund the cost of all the work he did. He is a pretty good guy
So I’d recommend checking it out.
In the right hands, german martingales have their place and can be useful. But as gadgets go, they are quite harsh and require a lot of finesse. I don’t love them.
Good luck with your girl.
It’s not the depart that makes a difference, but the quality of the trot BEFORE the depart. It really doesn’t matter how well you ask for depart - if the quality of the trot or walk is not good enough, the depart will be not good either. Canter depart can be only WORCE than the quality of the trot before it. Same goes for the contact.
Make sure that your horse is 100% on your aids that he is 100% thru, moving forward with active energy that he is also attentive to you. Only then ask for a transition.
Transitions are RE-BALANCING act for horses. Horses HATE to be off balance. If your horse doesn’t have a steady, good balance at trot and you are asking him to loose this balance even more to do transition - the horse will NOT like that at all.
So as a rider you need to help your horse to keep his balance and PREPARE him for transition by getting a very balanced trot. As a rider, you can also help your horse with a good timing: know and count when the outside hind legs strike the ground and give your aids in the rhythm with this timing.
Transitions are also much more physically demanding from horses, thus many throw their heads just to help themselves to re-balance. Exercise your horse and make him stronger - do smaller circles and shoulder fore. Do trot/walk transitions as well.
um, wow! Thank you so much for all of your amazing advice. It’s nice to hear that in general you all seem to agree!
My ride yesterday was better. I waited until she felt connected at the trot(although we are still working on being consistently so). Unfortunately, the first couple departs were BAD. Then, out of desperation, I let her canter big, big circles and slowed her down to a nice rhythm. I wanted her to canter until she felt relaxed. I’m learning that these TB’s can take more time to just chill out! Once she seemed to have settled down, I asked buy counting down as I posted, sitting lightly and just BARELY bringing my outside leg back in a small sweeping motion. SOOOO much better! We had a nice depart in both directions and quit!
I will take note of what’s been said here today and keep at it!
Again, thank you!
So if some departs are good it is most likely you :eek:. Try this:
1.) be sure to GIVE with inside rein NOT hold (even if she turns her head outside)
2.) Ask 99% with your seat
3.) keep outside elbow on your waist
4.) squeeze lightly with inside leg and move outside leg back (think windshield washer) - don’t squeeze with outside leg - just move it.
Sometimes my mare(s) need more leg than others - try less initially and only use more leg if she ignores it the first time.
Sounds like you might not have a good connection with her mouth - hence the hollowing and giraffe neck. Be sure she’s light and forward OFF YOUR SEAT before you LIGHTLY ask for canter. I always also lift my ribcage just before I ask for the canter to give her a heads up and that’s helped a LOT - you may want to try that.
(Caps are to emphasize not yell). :winkgrin:
Horses have no problems whatsoever with any upper level work, just because the rider uses the outside leg back in conjunction with the other aids to ask for the canter.
People who think that are simply asking wrong, using the outside leg too predominantly or at the exclusion of the other aids.
sure whatever
Horses are often schooled with the outside leg to initiate the canter departs in disciplines other than dressage like hunters, jumpers or eventing and they do fine. And it does have an important supporting role in dressage. But in when you get into “dressage” flying changes and advanced collected work where straightness is an issue, you need the horse of up and forward. So I guess it depends on what the rider’s priority is for transitions. IMO, I want all horses, even upper level ones, to be thinking about forward and impulsion, first and foremost all the time. That comes from the inside leg. Using the inside leg allows the horse to balance itself on the outside rein through the transition if necessary . That is more correct than balancing (or really unbalancing) with the inside rein. It can just lead to issue like crookedness, lack of impulsion, burying the shoulder, all of which can be fixed. But why not avoid these problems from the start through proper training?
