Help w/student over fences

[Trakehner]

She’s not ready to jump yet…no matter how long she’s ridden.

My students were always the last to jump. The two other instructors had their students slopping over jumps very quickly, yanking thier horse’s mouths and falling off…but their parents were happy, they had crossed the hurdle as riders and were JUMPING! Woohoo!

My girls worked on their seats, trotting without stirrups etc…they jumped when their mounts mouth didn’t suffer. They were good and they beat the other instructor’s students all the time! Plus they looked like they were having fun vs. that deer-in-the-headlights fear the jumpers who weren’t ready to jump had.

Will she ride bareback…if not, make her. Have her go over cavalettis and ground poles. The horse shouldn’t suffer due to her lack of talent/ability/experience.

[Come_Shine]

[QUOTE=thrghbrd;5140774]
I have a standing martingale on the horse she rides so she can grab that as well as mane…but it almost seems like she never learned to move her hands up his neck either. (I didn’t teach her from baby beginner). [/QUOTE]

Sometimes if people haven’t learned to move their hands up the neck, asking them to hold a grab strap or martingale with both hands is really mentally difficult if they are used to having ‘contact’ over a fence. Have her hold the martingale with her inside hand only. You’ll be surprised at how much easier that is for teaching a rider to ‘stay up’ that way and you also don’t get the big ‘shove’ release as they lunge for the strap.

[Hunterlover17]

Have her put her pinky fingers under the martingale strap.

I had a lesson on one of my trainer’s horses. This horse has a seriously gigantic jump. Over the first few jumps, I felt like a beginner again…being left behind, bumping him, and such. I hooked my pinky’s under the martingale for a few jumps to get a feel for him. It worked wonders.

Otherwise, there is no shame in grabbing some mane!

[InWhyCee_Redux]

If her stirrup length is correct and her seat and legs are strong enough to hold a two-point for five or ten minutes, I’d say the problem is NERVES. When I started courses, I was so focused on NOT getting left and NOT hitting my horse in the mouth that I would tense up and fix my hands and/or miss the takeoff entirely.

What helped me was lots of work at the trot and canter on a VERY long rein — we’re talking Western Pleasure, loopy reins. Once I realized my hands were not what was holding me in the saddle, things start0ed coming together…

Double posting — one beat down, two beats up — also helped me strengthen my legs.

[meupatdoes]

Have her practice cantering down the longside and getting up into two point and GRABBING MANE.
Sit four strides, two point and GRAB MANE four strides, repeat.

Have her practice, in her head, getting in two point and GRABBING MANE at the base of the jump.

Have her trot over a pole and get in her two point and GRAB MANE over the pole.

Have her demonstrate, at the halt, the fact that she understands the general concept of reaching down and GRABBING MANE.

I have to say, I have had one student in my life who REPEATEDLY in a lesson ignored/was simply unable to follow the simple “GRAB MANE” instruction and I just about tore my hair out. I don’t care if your saddle, bridle and breeches fall off on the way to the jump just GRAB. THE EFF. MANE.

There was nothing I could do for love or money to get her to grab the eff mane.
Nipple twiddling and left behind every time.

I generally have endless patience but this wore it to within an inch of its life. Honestly, it is not like a leg position where the rider may not have the body awareness to know if their leg is a few inches too far forward or back.
You are either grabbing a fistful of mane or you are not and if you are having trouble self-evaluating your success with the concept look down and see if your hands are holding the mane.
Why is this so hard??!!

[RugBug]

meupatdoes…I have to laugh. I get so angry when my trainer tells someone who is repeatedly getting left to grab mane and they don’t. It just comes across as pure arrogance to me and it really riles me up. If you didn’t need to grab mane, the trainer wouldn’t be asking you to. :mad:

I had a self-prescribed program of grabbing mane on my new horse until I learned to stay with his jump. I STILL grab mane when I’m not sure what he’s going to do. 'Course, he’s the type to make me pay if I hit him in the mouth. Grabbing mane is WAY better than having to deal with an upset horse.

[Brydelle_Farm]

[QUOTE=thrghbrd;5140775]
Brydelle Farm- I love your sig line

“Building riders not passengers” – I say something along those lines all the time!

:D[/QUOTE]

Thanks!! Very rewarding it is!

[Trevelyan96]

Sometimes the concept of ‘grabbing mane’ is a bit much for them to process when they’re approaching a jump and don’t feel balanced. I teach my beginner kids to plant their knuckles on either side of the crest to help keep their back straight, then straighten their elbows and push off the neck the 2nd stride after the jump. It really helps them feel a little more secure and it keeps their butt out of the saddle.

After all these years, my instructor still makes me do 2 point with my hands up as close to my horse’s ears as possible so that my legs have to do all the balancing work. It sucks, but it works.

[EqTrainer]

God gave horses manes for people to grab!

[goeslikestink]

[QUOTE=thrghbrd;5140774]
Thank you everyone for all of the wonderful suggestions!!

I have had her work on w/t/c in two-point and w/o stirrups, and over cross-poles & low verticles (no more than 2’) and she still is having trouble. THATS why its so frustrating.

get 2 plastic cups and fill with half water - one for each hand
if she can ride wtc without stirrups over small x rails etc then she can do this

place cross rail down center line as in 3 cavaletti’es ok canter strides apart
so its a bounce in and bounce out

get her to hold her hands out with the plastic cups of water shes not allowed to spill them as she goes over

she will learn to keep her balance and not jab the horse in the mouth
let her keep her stirrups 1st few times then take them away aswell this will encuage her to sit in and not grab hold of reins as she only using her butt to stay put

[equest]

The explanation that helped me was to “stay down” in two point for a stride after the jump.

[SonnysMom]

I do understand the not grabbing mane thing. For some reason that was a huge mental block for me too. It has only been the last couple of years that I have figured out the holding mane thing. I have been riding and jumping for 25+ years.

I think I get too many other things going through my mind- keep the pace, don’t overshoot my turn, thumbs up, look at the right spot, heels down, don’t duck, stay straight and square to the jump, what jump is the one after the one I am jumping, don’t let horsey leave long, don’t jump before the horse and my brain just can’t process that grab mane part too.

I found it easier to work on a gymnastic with only 1 or two jumps and just work that with trot in poles to help establish pace and stop straight at the end. An excercise like that helps to take away lots of my distractions. The trot poles establish the pace. By starting straight at the jump I don’t need to worry overshooting the turn or being straight to the jump. I don’t need to worry about where I am going after that line- I am stopping straight. Then I could begin to think about grabbing mane since I wasn’t thinking about everything else.
My trainer would frequently put poles down between fence 1 & fence 2 and after fence 2. The poles were to help keep us straight during the gymnastic and take that worry away.

My recommendation to OP is try her rider in a few different saddles. I had a saddle that fit me and my horse and I thought I liked it. I never felt like I was fighting it.
My trainer mentioned that she would always use her saddle on my horse since she hated mine. I tried another saddle in the barn and suddenly realized how much my saddle was interfering with my jumping. I was struggling with staying up and not getting hit in the butt but just didn’t realize it. I kept attributing that to my fitness level and lack of natural riding ability.

[findeight]

I once asked MGE how she handled huge triple combinations when she could not see over the next fence and wasn’t sure where she was…she said “grab mane and kick”.

Anyway, cardinal sin is hitting the horse in the mouth and opening up too early so your butt hits their back before they finish landing. For the sake of the horse, most instructors will not move a rider up until they stop that. Usually MOST riders can understand it’s not personal and not fair to that horse.

Put that neck strap on there and she needs to learn to use it if she wants to jump.

Try lunging her no hands no stirrups. Have her work on really sitting deep in the saddle and loosening up her lower back and hips to go with the horse. Lots of deep sitting trot and full seat canter again working on loosening up that lower back and hip.

Set a pole on the ground and have her show you long, medium and short crest releases as she trots over, then move to that the canter. NO release with the body, sit down and just fold at the hip-which I suspect she cannot do-use that hip and waist area.

I have a feeling she is throwing her whole body from the heels up at a release trying to “help” the horse jump and that almost always creates getting left behind because rider cannot hold balance that way-it can also result in the face plant if they tip the other way.

Back to basics until she can better master them. Certainly would not want to move her up at all…fence gets bigger, even 2’6" and most horses will not tolerate that getting hit on the back and mouth for long. Plus she is more liable to come off due to an insecure, weak position…if they don’t buck her off.

All about developing independent hands, leg and seat before the jumps so, if this rider does not ride at least 3 days a week? Suggest the gym, particularly stretching and ab work. Pilates is excellent.

[meaty_ogre]

@findeight;5143242

NO release with the body, sit down and just fold at the hip-which I suspect she cannot do-use that hip and waist area.

I think findeight is onto something here, and I’m going to be the dissenting voice and say that no stirrup work may not benefit this rider in the way you hope. If your rider is rigid or tends to grip, working without stirrups will just make her better at gripping. It’s entirely possible for a rider to be “tight” in the tack, but when you add moving with and following the horse, they get all discombobulated. She needs to learn to move her body and shift her balance while the horse is moving. Holding a good position is one thing. Holding a good position and being able to administer effect aids using your hands, seat and legs independently is entirely another.

The martingale strap is too close to the base of the neck. Give her a stirrup leather halfway up the neck as her “target” to grab, or braid a colored ribbon halfway up the neck. If she’s catching her horse at all she needs to be moving her hands way up the neck.

Make her do a lot of changing from full seat, half seat, 2 point within a gait while maintaining pace (and not using hands for balance).

Is she pivoting at her knee rather than folding at the hip? A good exercise to redistribute/re-educate the grip is to have the rider place just the tip of their heel in the stirrup (don’t do with spurs, and don’t jam the heel in…that’s obviously dangerous). Helps get the feel of weight down the back of the leg rather than pinching or gripping.

[findeight]

@meaty ogre;5143319

Make her do a lot of changing from full seat, half seat, 2 point within a gait while maintaining pace (and not using hands for balance)…

THANK YOU.

There are 3 seats, full, half and 2 point/jumping position that are really created by opening and closing the HIP ANGLE. Not by trying to force the rest of the body to mimic what proper hip angle does.

Full seat-Open hip angle which brings the shoulder, hip and heel into a straight line and butt deep in the tack. Used to collect and shorten the stride.

2 point- Hip angle fully closed which brings the butt out of the tack and allows the shoulder to come forward and the hand to follow the horse’s mouth. Used ONLY over the fence.

Half Seat-hip angle slightly closed bringing shoulder slightly forward and the butt still in the seat but a smidge lighter then full seat. Many variations…a little more open for a little more control and a little more closed for a little more extension. Half seat is where you will be around most of any course.

Master all of these at all gaits on the flat, then over ground poles progressing to low jumps. It’s hard and it sucks. But it works and creates a proper, strong position.
In the flatwork and over poles and real low stuff, make sure the shoulder stays BEHIND the knee. None of this exaggerated diving position launching out on the neck over 18" “fences”.

If there is one thing too many are missing it’s this. Lack of understanding it’s hip angle and the strength to control it and use it properly that allow the body to attain and stay in a good, strong position.

[RugBug]

@findeight;5143440

THANK YOU.

There are 3 seats, full, half and 2 point/jumping position that are really created by opening and closing the HIP ANGLE.

There’s more involved to creating the three seats than just the hip angle. I can close my hip angle to 2-point position and still be in the saddle. A 30 degree incline in the upper body, which is about where you should be while in two point, can easily be accomplished while still fully in the saddle. You have to simultaneously open the knee angle to really be in two point.

To maintain two point over a fence, you have to be able to control both angles. Hips and knees still have to open and close with the horse’s movement, but with a tension so they don’t completely collapse either onto the horse’s neck or back. THIS is what is missing and is often hard to learn.

[findeight]

I am trying to keep it simple and not get too technical with this stuff.

I was never aware of doing anything with my knee once I had a strong and relaxed leg and none of my instructors and clinicians ever mentioned it-just weight in the heel and hip angle. It’s probably a factor that works when the hip is properly used with a proper base of support and not independently.

[Janet]

You can have a closed hip angle (leaning WAY forward) with your seat in the saddle, in a “crouch” position, or with your knees straight.

Similarly, you can have an open hip angle (vertical spine) with your seat in the saddle, in a “crouch” position, or with your knoees straight.

There is, in general, a time and a place for each.

But learning to REALLY close the hip angle while keeping the knees somewhat bent uses muscles we don’t use much otherwise.

Just “practicing twopoint” (unless you REALLY lean forward in your two point) isn’t going to give you the strength and flexibility to do it right over a fence.

[meaty_ogre]

Janet, findeight and rugbug have all hit on what I was trying to explain. It sounds like the OP’s student has mastered holding a position, but then when you throw in the thrust of the horse jumping, she can’t manage to coordinate her hip and knee angles and center of gravity to get her where she needs to be. The heel in the stirrup exercise can really help unlock a rider.

Transitioning between the 3 seats a lot will help her at least somewhat. You have to maintain your center of balance over the horse’s as he is trotting/cantering, but janet is right, it doesn’t require the same amount of fold that jumping does. Although over small crossrails she doesn’t need to fold a lot…just needs to not fall back and/or catch her horse’s mouth.

Again, the leather further up the neck will help with that too. If she has to reach for it, she will have to fold a little more at the waist, and holding onto it will give her some leverage to keep herself out of the saddle. It’s not ideal for her to be balancing on a neckstrap but much preferable to the bit.

Failing all that, get her a nice, flat-jumping arab.

[RugBug]

@meaty ogre;5143734

Again, the leather further up the neck will help with that too. If she has to reach for it, she will have to fold a little more at the waist, and holding onto it will give her some leverage to keep herself out of the saddle. It’s not ideal for her to be balancing on a neckstrap but much preferable to the bit.

Failing all that, get her a nice, flat-jumping arab.

:lol: Well, just having gone through this with my new horse, I know what clicked for me. I have fairly independent seat and hands, can do two poin, three point and inbetween, I can do double posting, I can do ‘vertical far’ (standing in your irons) no problem, no stirrups isn’t an issue, and yet I was still falling back. Previous horses didn’t mind, but the new horse did.

What worked for me was grabbing mane a few strides out and using it to hold myself out of the saddle. I HATED the feeling though, because I felt too collapsed on the neck…but by golly, it did what it was suppose to. And then one day, I tightened some muscles over a jump and a light bulb went off. I stayed out of the saddle, was still in balance and didn’t need the mane. I can’t tell you exactly which muscles, but it felt like I was tightening my hips. I’m sure it was a combination of muscles in the hips and thighs (hip flexors, quads perhaps) but wowzers…it did what I wanted. It was slow going and playing around with a lot of different things, but I feel a lot softer now…and my horse is MUCH happier.