"Help" what to do with naughty horse bringing back to work?

[doublesstable]

Last December one of my horses had a collateral ligament injury diagnosed via MRI. I have been doing IRAP, Shockwave, closely working on his feet (barefoot) and layup for 9 months. Did a month of tack walking and horse felt like I was riding a ticking time bomb and I could feel he wanted to be really naughty.

Before doing anymore with him I re-MRIed and the ligament is healing but still slightly inflamed. MRI Vet recommended tack walking and asymmetric shoes. I did the shoes but no tack walking because I didn’t want to pick a fight I couldn’t win. I couldn’t trot or exercise him and I felt he would just explode. He is only 6 years old.

Regular vet said to put him out in a pasture with other horses and let him be for a few months. He has been in a pasture for about 3 - 4 months and is sound.

I get him out everyday because I didn’t want him getting herd sour. There was a layup rider out at my barn so I had him ride him two times. My horse was sound (yay) but a completed idiot. I mean snaking his head, refusing to go forward, leaping and spinning. I know he’s been on layup but he was always such a sweet quiet guy it’s a big surprise how crazy he was.

I removed him from the pasture with the two other horses and put him next to them in a pasture by himself. He was pacing the fence with his pals right next to him. He is better now but he’s acting like a feral un-broke horse.

I’m not sure if the layup rider can come out much longer… I started him on Smartcalm, removed any alfalfa in his diet. I mentioned to the vet ideas of how to bring him back safely.

If he doesn’t relax we thought about Medroxyprogesterone but I know nothing about this.

[Renn_aissance]

If you’re sure that these shenanigans aren’t a pain reaction, frankly I’d talk to your vet about sedating this creature to bring it back into work before its airs above the ground destroy the healing ligament and leave you with a never-to-be-sound-again 6 year old.

I was the layup rider (aka crash test dummy) for one of these. The horse had clean images and felt so good to be out and moving around that he did his best to kill himself. We sedated him for work under the vet’s supervision until he could bear to be in his own skin again and thus were able to bring him back safely- both for his healing suspensory and for my neck!

[mroades]

Sedivet was the only thing that worked with my filly that had to be in a stall for a year after surgery on her ankle.

[doublesstable]

[QUOTE=Renn/aissance;7952365]
If you’re sure that these shenanigans aren’t a pain reaction, frankly I’d talk to your vet about sedating this creature to bring it back into work before its airs above the ground destroy the healing ligament and leave you with a never-to-be-sound-again 6 year old.

I was the layup rider (aka crash test dummy) for one of these. The horse had clean images and felt so good to be out and moving around that he did his best to kill himself. We sedated him for work under the vet’s supervision until he could bear to be in his own skin again and thus were able to bring him back safely- both for his healing suspensory and for my neck![/QUOTE]

I thought pain related too… I did have a bone scan done last year. He is naughty in the cross ties and nervously pacing in his stall which makes me think it’s not pain related to riding… I talked to the vet about gastroguard.

When I was tack walking towards the end because I was feeling that naughty was coming; we gave him ace (which I know doesn’t work for him) Just as I got on he imploded - he snapped out of it with a vengeance. I have had other horses react to ace like that as well.

When the vet does Shockwave she gives him .8 Demosidan (which is a lot) so I rode him two times on Demosidan .3 which was okay for a bit and then next day .2 which did nothing. I don’t want to inject if possible but I also don’t want to be the crash test dummy LOL!!!

I will talk to my vet about Sedivet.

[ynl063w]

I second the Sedivet suggestion. It was a godsend for me when I was bringing my horse back to work after 9 months of complete stall rest. I used less than 1/2 cc before getting on him (and even less than a 1/4 cc sometimes) and he was completely manageable without feeling at all doped and unsteady on his feet. It’s much more expensive than ace but to me, it was totally worth the extra cost.

[mroades]

Yes, Sedivet is so amazing at taking the bad behavior out without making them sleepy or trippy.
By the end of our filly’s rehab she was good with .01 cc

[Peggy]

Another approach is to go for a pony ride. This requires two capable people–one on the horse and the other leading it. This worked with a friend’s horse who was barely broke when he, well, broke. An assortment of chemical assistance was also employed.

This is why Skipper is staying where he is, should he become sound and actually be able to go back to work, so the guy down there who is used to rehab shenanigans and starting young horses for the track can deal with it. I am too old to become cannon fodder.

[Peggy]

Sedivet is what I know as Rompun? (sp?)
http://www.heartlandvetsupply.com/p-3710-sedivet-injectable.aspx

[Renn_aissance]

[QUOTE=doublesstable;7952411]
I thought pain related too… I did have a bone scan done last year. He is naughty in the cross ties and nervously pacing in his stall which makes me think it’s not pain related to riding… I talked to the vet about gastroguard.

When I was tack walking towards the end because I was feeling that naughty was coming; we gave him ace (which I know doesn’t work for him) Just as I got on he imploded - he snapped out of it with a vengeance. I have had other horses react to ace like that as well.

When the vet does Shockwave she gives him .8 Demosidan (which is a lot) so I rode him two times on Demosidan .3 which was okay for a bit and then next day .2 which did nothing. I don’t want to inject if possible but I also don’t want to be the crash test dummy LOL!!!

I will talk to my vet about Sedivet.[/QUOTE]

How much exercise is this critter able to get? You mentioned that he can have some turnout and that he’s been able to be walked under saddle, although I’m extrapolating from what you said about him feeling like a ticking time bomb that you may have very sensibly gotten off the horse when he felt like he was going to do something stupid and so he might not have gotten his full daily work in the interest of nobody dying young.

A young horse coming off of rest getting not a lot of exercise in the winter is going to perform grand airs and put on a whole drama production, and you can’t really hold it against the horse. The good news is that he probably feels good about himself. Now your job is to do what you have to do to keep all four of his legs attached while you fix the cause of his exuberance- lack of physical exertion.

I’ve also ponied to get a horse back into some level of fitness- particularly useful in winter and especially if you have a laid-back pony horse that the patient respects. Used this technique to start back a very athletic and always hot Thoroughbred horse coming off a suspensory. He had been on turnout throughout so he had a good outlet for his shenanigans but as the little guy had a wicked buck at the best of times I didn’t particularly want to sit on him at the walk for half an hour- it would have turned into 5 minutes of prancing and 25 of drama. Amigo was turned out with my horse Tip, who’s both bombproof and short on patience with anybody being stupid in his vicinity. So I tacked up Tip and pony-walked Amigo, starting in the indoor and then moving out around the farm. Amigo had a very healthy respect for what Tip would think about Amigo pulling a wingding- all Tip had to do was look at Amigo funny and whatever he was doing, he would quit. I was able to get Amigo back to a reasonable amount of both fitness and civilization without calling anybody’s insurance provider.

[mroades]

No Peggy it is not

[mroades]

Rompun is xylazine and Sedivet is rofimadine

[Peggy]

[QUOTE=mroades;7952550]
Rompun is xylazine and Sedivet is rofimadine[/QUOTE]thanks. Wasn’t sure with the similarity of the names. Needing something to do while boiling soup I looked up both. They’re both analogues of clonidine. Sometimes I really wish I understood pharmacology better. I can draw structures and see similarities but don’t understand why subtle structural changes were made between different drugs.

Structures attached in case anyone is actually curious. I suspect they’re sideways.

[FineAlready]

Definitely sedate him with whatever works. For his safety and yours.

[GraceLikeRain]

I think when people hear hot horse rehabbing and lunging they immediately image a horse hauling butt in a 10 meter circle. However, I think modified in-hand/lunging may be an option depending on his foundation work before his injury. Walking parallel to keep tight bending to a minimum with disengaging the front and hind end, stopping, changing directions, backing a step or two, turn, walk, disengage, stop, walk, etc, etc. He may be too hot to do it safely but sometimes the brain games keep hand walking safer for everyone if it can be done in a round pen or very very contained space. Probably not enough alone to get him ready for U/S work but just a suggestion.

[doublesstable]

[QUOTE=Renn/aissance;7952542]
How much exercise is this critter able to get? [/QUOTE]

That’s a good question that I don’t have an answer to. In normal circumstances a horse would start out walking and short trot sets…

This horse, well given his “tude” the first day with layup trainer was more trotting (about 5 minutes) and some walking. (broke a big time sweat) Second day I was hoping he got some of his ya-ya’s out the day before but seemed very annoyed to have to be doing something he didn’t want to do - be ridden.

I talked with the vet about it and she said it’s been over a year work him and just see what we have. If he doesn’t stay sound then put him out in pasture for another year and see what you have then.

@Renn/aissance;7952542

You mentioned that he can have some turnout

He is in a pasture 24/7 so any shenanigans should have been sorted out over the last few months. However he is normally a very lazy horse and doesn’t do much in turn out.

[QUOTE=Renn/aissance;7952542]
that he’s been able to be walked under saddle, although I’m extrapolating from what you said about him feeling like a ticking time bomb that you may have very sensibly gotten off the horse when he felt like he was going to do something stupid and so he might not have gotten his full daily work in the interest of nobody dying young.[/QUOTE]

When I was tack walking him a few months ago Vet only wanted walking. So that’s all he got. He was getting turn out as well. At that point he couldn’t work except walk. FUN!! That’s why I stopped tack walking because I felt he needed to work and don’t think the ligament was ready at that point. So I left him out in the pasture for three months. Now I would like to start him because he can do more work.

[QUOTE=Renn/aissance;7952542]
A young horse coming off of rest getting not a lot of exercise in the winter is going to perform grand airs and put on a whole drama production, and you can’t really hold it against the horse. The good news is that he probably feels good about himself. Now your job is to do what you have to do to keep all four of his legs attached while you fix the cause of his exuberance- lack of physical exertion.[/QUOTE]

That is so what I am hoping it is!!! I was hoping since he is out all the time he wouldn’t have shown to be such a nut-case. My special redhead!!

[QUOTE=Renn/aissance;7952542]
I’ve also ponied to get a horse back into some level of fitness- particularly useful in winter and especially if you have a laid-back pony horse that the patient respects. Used this technique to start back a very athletic and always hot Thoroughbred horse coming off a suspensory. He had been on turnout throughout so he had a good outlet for his shenanigans but as the little guy had a wicked buck at the best of times I didn’t particularly want to sit on him at the walk for half an hour- it would have turned into 5 minutes of prancing and 25 of drama. Amigo was turned out with my horse Tip, who’s both bombproof and short on patience with anybody being stupid in his vicinity. So I tacked up Tip and pony-walked Amigo, starting in the indoor and then moving out around the farm. Amigo had a very healthy respect for what Tip would think about Amigo pulling a wingding- all Tip had to do was look at Amigo funny and whatever he was doing, he would quit. I was able to get Amigo back to a reasonable amount of both fitness and civilization without calling anybody’s insurance provider.[/QUOTE]

My best shot at this point was the layup trainer but he may not be able to help. I do have another horse that is very quiet but he’s only 4 LOL!!! But such a brave guy.

I had an old appy I used for bringing a long a few babies and a layup or two… So awesome to have an old solid citizen around. I don’t have that anymore…

[ynl063w]

[QUOTE=Peggy;7952565]
thanks. Wasn’t sure with the similarity of the names. Needing something to do while boiling soup I looked up both. They’re both analogues of clonidine. Sometimes I really wish I understood pharmacology better. I can draw structures and see similarities but don’t understand why subtle structural changes were made between different drugs.

Structures attached in case anyone is actually curious. I suspect they’re sideways.[/QUOTE]

I looked up the structures online since I: a) LOVED organic chemistry and remember how much fun it was to draw chemical structures, and b) your structures are not sideways, but upside down, and even when I turned my laptop upside down I had a hard time making sense of them.

So, based on the fact that I have not really seen your structures, and also the fact that the ones I looked at were on Wikipedia and I have not had any reason whatsoever to analyze any chemical structures in more than 10 years, I noticed these differences between xylazine and rofimadine:

Both have two rings, one of which is a 6 carbon aromatic ring, but xylazine has two methyl groups off it while rofimadine has a bromine and a fluorine.

Xylazine’s other ring is made up of 6 atoms(?), one of which is sulfur, while the second ring in rofimadine is made up of 5 atoms.

I have never been a chemistry expert, and I’m VERY rusty when it comes to this stuff, but these structures seem more dissimilar to me than they seem similar. I’m looking forward to your reply in the hopes that my memory will be jogged!

[doublesstable]

[QUOTE=GraceLikeRain;7952637]
I think when people hear hot horse rehabbing and lunging they immediately image a horse hauling butt in a 10 meter circle. However, I think modified in-hand/lunging may be an option depending on his foundation work before his injury. Walking parallel to keep tight bending to a minimum with disengaging the front and hind end, stopping, changing directions, backing a step or two, turn, walk, disengage, stop, walk, etc, etc. He may be too hot to do it safely but sometimes the brain games keep hand walking safer for everyone if it can be done in a round pen or very very contained space. Probably not enough alone to get him ready for U/S work but just a suggestion.[/QUOTE]

The vet doesn’t want him on the lunge line Lateral Collateral ligament would put too much strain on him. We do have a few round pens and it’s something to think about. Or maybe lunge in a large walking circle with a bitting rig like a Pessoa so he is not able to bolt etc. Really a good thought…

[Peggy]

[QUOTE=ynl063w;7952653]
I looked up the structures online since I: a) LOVED organic chemistry and remember how much fun it was to draw chemical structures, and b) your structures are not sideways, but upside down, and even when I turned my laptop upside down I had a hard time making sense of them.

So, based on the fact that I have not really seen your structures, and also the fact that the ones I looked at were on Wikipedia and I have not had any reason whatsoever to analyze any chemical structures in more than 10 years, I noticed these differences between xylazine and rofimadine:

Both have two rings, one of which is a 6 carbon aromatic ring, but xylazine has two methyl groups off it while rofimadine has a bromine and a fluorine.

Xylazine’s other ring is made up of 6 atoms(?), one of which is sulfur, while the second ring in rofimadine is made up of 5 atoms.

I have never been a chemistry expert, and I’m VERY rusty when it comes to this stuff, but these structures seem more dissimilar to me than they seem similar. I’m looking forward to your reply in the hopes that my memory will be jogged![/QUOTE]
I say similar because the benzene ring has two substituents next to where the nitrogen attaches, both have the same nitrogen (secondary amine) and then the nitrogen is attached to a heterocyclic ring. But those heterocyclic rings are pretty different. I don’t know how much difference that makes pharmacologically. Sometimes they make these adaptations for solubility reasons and the pharmacology stays the same. But a tiny difference can make a huge difference. Take a look at estradiol vs testosterone. Or caffeine vs theobromine (link). I just don’t have the tools to make the right connections.

Sorry OP!

[Peggy]

I know people who long line during rehab, but I don’t know how effective it would be to teach a horse that hadn’t done it previously to do it while all hopped up.

[PoohLP]

I had to bring a young horse back from a much shorter layup and honestly, the most helpful thing we did was cut his feed and take some weight off him. We didn’t make him skinny or ribby by any means, just took off the last 100lbs that made him feel like a rocket ship and gave him more beet pulp and less protein. It really helped a lot. Once he was back in regular work and could more healthily and safely direct his energy, we upped his food/protein to get him back into top form.