Lots of horses can’t collect.
“Their own version of extended work…” If by that you mean none at all, then sure. How about I do my own version of a four minute mile.
I wasn’t talking about whether or not all sound, properly trained horses should be able to do Third, I’ve just noticed that lots of threads devolve into that discussion when it isn’t even relevant. That’s what is “crazy” to me. Though, I guess this time it’s my fault for antagonizing you.
Yes, I know the PSG mule is real. Infact, I’m waiting for someone to post a video of him again.
[QUOTE=Beentheredonethat;8679475]
Too bad you’re not very well educated. Pretty much all horses are capable of 3rd level. If you can’t do a flying change or half pass, there’s a problem, probably the limitation of the rider. Now, you may not do well, but you should be able to do something. All horses can do their own version of extended work, and all horses can do walk pirouettes.
It’s really sad people in here are so limited about what horses “can” do. It’s really sad some people jump in and encourage this limited thinking. And, not, I’m, not joking. Being snarky and saying it’s crazy it’s just so . . . sad.
Why do you think it’s a joke the mule is at PSG? He’s not the world’s greatest, but so what? That’s the POINT of dressage, training. Train every horse to be the best they can to do movements all can do to a point.[/QUOTE]
It’s not a joke and he’s an exceptional mule. Doesn’t mean that every mule could get to PSG with the correct trainer. Yeah, people can do that liberty stuff like Alize Froment, doesn’t mean every horse has the mental capacity or talent to achieve it. There’s plenty of horses that will never do above 2nd level even with the best trainers on earth.
[QUOTE=Beentheredonethat;8679475]
Too bad you’re not very well educated. Pretty much all horses are capable of 3rd level. If you can’t do a flying change or half pass, there’s a problem, probably the limitation of the rider. Now, you may not do well, but you should be able to do something. All horses can do their own version of extended work, and all horses can do walk pirouettes.
It’s really sad people in here are so limited about what horses “can” do. It’s really sad some people jump in and encourage this limited thinking. And, not, I’m, not joking. Being snarky and saying it’s crazy it’s just so . . . sad.
Why do you think it’s a joke the mule is at PSG? He’s not the world’s greatest, but so what? That’s the POINT of dressage, training. Train every horse to be the best they can to do movements all can do to a point.[/QUOTE]
Just because someone has trained an exceptional mule to PSG doesn’t mean all mules can do PSG, do you see why?
[QUOTE=egood;8679593]
Just because someone has trained an exceptional mule to PSG doesn’t mean all mules can do PSG, do you see why?[/QUOTE]
What does that have to do with anything? Just because a mule can do PSG, it doesn’t mean all horses can’t do some version of 3rd level. Do you see why?
And, yes, ALL horses can collect. That’s ridiculous to even say. It might not be up to your standards, but dressage movements are all things horses do naturally.
[QUOTE=Beentheredonethat;8679646]
And, yes, ALL horses can collect. That’s ridiculous to even say. It might not be up to your standards, but dressage movements are all things horses do naturally.[/QUOTE]
No, they can’t. Standards have nothing to do with it. Either a horse can sit, balance its weight back, and carry itself uphill… and maintain that posture, or it can’t. Many can’t.
All horses can move energetically on the bit and shorten their strides. But honest to goodness collection? No.
[QUOTE=TickleFight;8679652]
No, they can’t. Standards have nothing to do with it. Either a horse can sit, balance its weight back, and carry itself uphill… and maintain that posture, or it can’t. Many can’t.
All horses can move energetically on the bit and shorten their strides. But honest to goodness collection? No.[/QUOTE]
Yes, they can. All horses are physically able of putting their hind legs further under themselves, lifting their backs, and putting more weight on the hind end. That’s collection, whether you want to say that or not.
“Collection occurs when a horse carries more weight on the hind legs than the front legs. The horse draws its body together so that it becomes like a giant spring whose stored energy can be reclaimed for fighting or running from a predator. The largest organic spring in the horse’s body, and therefore the easiest one to observe in action, is the back, including the spine and the associated musculature that draws it together in much the same way that a bow is drawn by an archer.”
I think that’s completely beside the point whether all horses can do “their own version” of Third Level movements or not. The reality is most horses don’t, be the reason for it the rider or the horse.
The OP wasn’t asking “I am looking for the biggest possible conformational trainwreck to see if I can make it do some Third Level movements”. She was asking to get advice on the best possible horse on her limited budget to enter the dressage world. So I wouldn’t consider a horse that is butt-high, knock kneed in the front and straight like a rulerin the back, and has a pencil neck to boot, the best candidate.
I would agree with those who say neither of the two horses from the original post, keep looking. I personally think that on a limited budget the value for money is much better when you buy domestic breeds rather than European Warmbloods. For $5000 you can e.g. get a very decent Morgan, while for the same money a Warmblood will probably either have to be very young / untrained or has some other issues (conformation, health, etc)
My mare was not able to do any real collection, and could not extend to save her life.
She was very heavy in front and had a small butt. She was a half-draft. I used to joke her front half was draft, her back half TB. When I firrst got her, I was told that she would be able to do 1st, but probably not 2nd. And that indeed was the case. But I was ok with that at the time because I was just learning to ride. In hind sight, her limitations made lots of things harder for me to learn and advance. But she did teach me to ride and how to stay in the saddle 
My gelding, is a whole 'nuther story. He was bred for dressage, and things are sooooo much easier for him and consequentially for me.
[QUOTE=DogIsMyCopilot;8679664]
I personally think that on a limited budget the value for money is much better when you buy domestic breeds rather than European Warmbloods. For $5000 you can e.g. get a very decent Morgan, while for the same money a Warmblood will probably either have to be very young / untrained or has some other issues (conformation, health, etc)[/QUOTE]
Completely agree. Many, many, MANY very suitable horses out there in this category. Find good basic gaits, coordinated, proportional conformation, uphill, athletic, trainable, good temperament…morgans, arabs, half-arabs, saddlebreds, etc…save your money for the dressage specific training with the very best trainer you can afford.
Most horses can do the movements of 3rd level, but that doesn’t mean it would be something competitive and showable. So why even bring it up - of course, we know all horses (when ridden properly) can do a shoulder in, a half-pass, a flying change. But when people are looking for a “3rd level” horse, they are looking for one that can show and score high enough to at least get a bronze medal. So why the debate? Who cares if my plow horse can do a half-pass, or my gaited horse can do a flying change?
OP - not sure what your budget is, or what your riding skill is, or what your training situation is, so it is very hard to give advice beyond your initial inquiry (conformation of the two horses).
Sounds like somebody needs to start their own Montessori dressage program.
[QUOTE=TickleFight;8679652]
No, they can’t. Standards have nothing to do with it. Either a horse can sit, balance its weight back, and carry itself uphill… and maintain that posture, or it can’t. Many can’t.
All horses can move energetically on the bit and shorten their strides. But honest to goodness collection? No.[/QUOTE]
Wait a sec. You mean “honest to goodness collection” is a black-n-white thing and not a “shades of grey” thing?
As a newbie to dressage, I would have thought that all horses with less- or more (or lots, lots more) training and conditioning could do most of the stuff involved in dressage. Perhaps one-tempis are something some horses absolutely can’t do. But are you guys saying that just about any horse with the right program behind him can’t to some version of everything else, even passage and piaffe, though they will be piss poor?
And coming from HunterWorld where George Morris and the like used to say that any horse can jump 3’, and now watching horses specializing/topping out at 2’6" as their show division, I wonder what dressagists mean by saying “Any horse can get to Third Level” or, “No, they can’t.” Does the latter mean that the horse can’t get there and, say, meet some absolute standard of quality like winning his rider the scores needed from a bronze medal?
OP, for my money, I’d take “Horse can’t get to Third Level” to mean that either 1) The horse won’t let me be competitive in my area; or 2) Horse won’t let me earn my bronze. I say that because I do want to show and it costs as much to feed, train and learn to ride the horse that will give me a shot at the scores I want as it does to feed the horse whose rendition of those tests just won’t make the grade in the show ring.
But if my goal were not to show, I would care only for trainability, soundness and a horse that allowed me to learn to ride and condition correctly. In this case, I’d lay most emphasis on the horse’s mind— his “want to” and his willingness to show up every day and focus on the details, because that’s a big, big part of the dressage horse’s job. He must be careful, long attention span-ed and patient.
If I were buying a horse that was more trained than I with the expectation that he’d teach me, I’d emphasize the quality of his mind first and the correctness of his education second. You can fix training problems with a horse who has a good mind, if you have a lot of time and you are a careful, competent, thinking rider. But time is money. And if you don’t think like a trainer, but rather, want the horse and your instructor to guide you, the horse with holes in his education (or some genuinely wrong information taught to him) will be frustrating and, most likely, help you stay stuck wherever you are in your riding.
OP, You want to buy the package that is already performing the task you want.
I’ve seen some pretty wackily made horses make it to the UL, and produce horses that make it to the UL. Look at Donnerhall - he’s longer than a submarine, has camped out hocks and one of the longest loin connections I’ve seen in a horse… and look at all of the extraordinary things that amazing horse has accomplished and passed on to his sons and daughters.
The dressage world has no short supply of horses that aren’t our “perfectly pretty neat in a box” ideal and they still perform quite successfully.
My point is, pretty is as pretty does. Yes, conformation should be a consideration but IMHO, when buying a horse that is doing the job you want, it is really secondary to the horse’s temperament and aptitude (which sometimes is not at ALL related to conformation) for what you are asking.
Now, when shopping for a green horse that ISN’T doing the job you want yet, that’s when conformation should come into play. IME, when shopping with clients, friends or trainers, we’ll pay more attention to conformation for the horses that haven’t proven they’re capable of being in our program yet – but for the ammies or the riders looking for a school-horse or a horse that is already in a program, the conformation is really secondary to soundness and mind.
[QUOTE=beowulf;8680114]
OP, You want to buy the package that is already performing the task you want.
I’ve seen some pretty wackily made horses make it to the UL, and produce horses that make it to the UL. Look at Donnerhall - he’s longer than a submarine, has camped out hocks and one of the longest loin connections I’ve seen in a horse… and look at all of the extraordinary things that amazing horse has accomplished and passed on to his sons and daughters.
The dressage world has no short supply of horses that aren’t our “perfectly pretty neat in a box” ideal and they still perform quite successfully.
My point is, pretty is as pretty does. Yes, conformation should be a consideration but IMHO, when buying a horse that is doing the job you want, it is really secondary to the horse’s temperament and aptitude (which sometimes is not at ALL related to conformation) for what you are asking.[/QUOTE]
I agree. That’s why I went into all that invisible, between the ears stuff. And it’s the reason I want to know what you guys mean by “built so badly that the horse can’t do it.” I look at some old schoolmaster horses and lots of them have less-then-spectacular conformation. To see them standing around in their paddock, you’d have no idea that they could pick themselves up and do the gymnastics under saddle that they do. Yet, with years of physical therapy-like conditioning, they do.
[QUOTE=beowulf;8680114]
I’ve seen some pretty wackily made horses make it to the UL, and produce horses that make it to the UL. The dressage world has no short supply of horses that aren’t our “perfectly pretty neat in a box” ideal and they still perform quite successfully.
My point is, pretty is as pretty does. Yes, conformation should be a consideration but IMHO, when buying a horse that is doing the job you want, it is really secondary to the horse’s temperament and aptitude (which sometimes is not at ALL related to conformation) for what you are asking.[/QUOTE]
Well said. And, temperament is higher on my list than conformation. I don’t care how perfectly built a horse is if he isn’t interested in partnering with me and being what Carol Lavell refers to as a “volunteer.”
For those of you old enough to remember Christine Stuckelberger’s horse Granat, there was a very unkind (but I did laugh) caption under a photo of him reading, “this horse just begs a plow.” But, he went on to win individual gold at the 1976 Olympics.
[QUOTE=mvp;8680120]
I agree. That’s why I went into all that invisible, between the ears stuff. And it’s the reason I want to know what you guys mean by “built so badly that the horse can’t do it.” I look at some old schoolmaster horses and lots of them have less-then-spectacular conformation. To see them standing around in their paddock, you’d have no idea that they could pick themselves up and do the gymnastics under saddle that they do. Yet, with years of physical therapy-like conditioning, they do.[/QUOTE]
Exactly.
These three superstars are a great example:
http://i.imgur.com/EKZcIL5.jpg
None of them, to my eye, have perfect conformation. In order from L to R - Negro, Totilas, and Valegro. Picture is not mine. It’s hard to find a conformation shot of Valegro but he is not a horse most of us would pick out of a field and know was going to blow the world away.
OP–I wouldn’t come here to ask advice on a picture. Honestly…for the goals you have articulated…brains of the horse are the most important feature. Go look at horses, try them…which ones do you click with? That is what is important.
Conformation is a part of the equation with any athletic horse…but most people can not evaluate that in a single picture. A fabulous horse can look like a mule made up of parts…or a mule (other than ears) can be made to look fabulous in a single picture.
Getting to 3rd level on a sound reasonably athletic horse is much more about the training and riding than anything. Being competitive is ALSO a lot more to do with the riding and training. Having correct gaits (not flashy) is important too but depending on you as a rider and your trainer, there may be things that you can live with.
So find the horse that you click with…that you will be happy to see each day…and enjoy the process of training. Good luck!
Nowadays, the conformation I care most about is a good place to put a saddle. Otherwise you end up with a whole ho$t of $addle-fit problem$. Ask me how I know.
The other stuff… does their body shape/proportions make it easier or harder for them to do the job? All else equal, I’d go for the horse whose conformation makes the work easier for them so that you don’t have to borrow so much against their good nature/brain.
If all else ISN’T equal, go with the one with the brain.
Good points on conformation. Some of the best horses in the world look bizarre standing still. I can’t even understand jumpers–some of the top ones look like rent string horses to me.
The POINT of this is that saying you have to buy just the right horse and the look is useless. There is no black and white of what can and can’t. There are a lot of things in the books that aren’t possible, but are done all of the time in real life. Personally, I think the rider has a lot more influence on where the horse will get to than anyone else. If you put in the time and effort, you can get just about any horse anywhere. (And before you start arguing, look at my picture.) You want a reasonably built horse without major soundness issues, but I agree a horse with a good mind is more valuable than stellar conformation, and I think a good fitness program for the horse is more valuable than super gaits.
In the end, most of us are really doing this for pleasure, so we aren’t ever going to find the perfect horse, even with unlimited funds. We’re going to do what we can with what we have, and focus on the idea of dressage, using the training to make the horse the best they can be. So, finding a horse you truly like and want to ride is probably the most important factor.
