Help with Conformation - Looking to Buy

GraceLikeRain · August 27, 2020, 9:03pm

OP I don’t know what your situation is but could you potentially have a retired horse while having another horse? If so, I think the best way to help you grow would be to consider a horse who is 14-16 years old. There are tons in that range who can be purchased for under $15k with 3rd level capability if you are open to non-warmbloods. They may not be the class winner but often have wonderful minds and ample experience.

I personally have known several late teens - mid 20s horses still schooling upper level movements, but I think it unfair to tell anyone that is the norm. If you buy a healthy 13 year old I think it is reasonable to expect 4-6 good years and then everything after that is a gift.

if you are in a position where you can help take care of an oldie who taught you a lot as age catches us, or have the resources to free lease out to a suitable home, then I think a seasoned or older horse makes a ton of sense.

Abbie.S · August 27, 2020, 9:05pm

For what it’s worth, anyone who has seen a horse of any kind, out in a field, get keyed up, snorty and excited and float around the field has seen a horse in some degree of collection.

So yes, every horse (barring physical issue that actually prevents it from lifting the free span of the back and flexing at the SI joint) can collect to some degree. Just because it doesn’t fit the pretty picture of a finely-tuned upper level horse does not change what it organically is.

Whether the horse can sustain that collection, and how easy it will be for them to do so, is the bigger issue. For some, the struggle will be greater, or necessitate a much more skilled rider than most of us are. For others, it’s much more natural and easily accomplished.

OP, buying a horse is not about just conformation. You are not buying body parts, you are essentially buying a dance partner. I’d take a fantastic brain and average body any day over just beautiful form and movement. But I’m also decently skilled and able to bring horses up relatively easily on my own. You have to weight your strengths against your equine partners and be realistic about what you want the horse to be able to do. Then you buy the partner that you will most likely be able to set up for success in that endeavor.

It’s not easy, but it isn’t rocket science, either, and it does require a bit of gambling sometimes. The handful of conformation traits I wouldn’t touch would include a true ewe neck, long slope-y pasterns, straight shoulders and overly angled hocks (in either direction).

And I say that, but guess what? I own a mare with a long back, a weak loin coupling and who is sickle-hocked from here to next week…and she does 1st level no problem and plays with second level movements. That’s about as far as she’ll likely ever go, but she does just fine. She has taught me more about horsemanship and good riding than any other horse I’ve owned or trained. That’s the real value of the horse.

TickleFight · August 27, 2020, 9:05pm

I disagree. Tensely prancing around the pasture, likely with its hocks trailing out in a different zip code, is not collection. Though it sure does impress the uneducated eye.

Collection, as required in dressage, is born of relaxation. It’s totally different and has nothing to do with being “keyed up” or “snorty” or “excited.”

Saddle up that horse you just saw spronging around its paddock and ask it to repeat those flamboyant gaits, but this time with the stipulation of relaxation, bend, and elasticity… and keeping its hocks underneath its body.

Manni01 · August 27, 2020, 9:05pm

[QUOTE=beowulf;8680114]
OP, You want to buy the package that is already performing the task you want.

I’ve seen some pretty wackily made horses make it to the UL, and produce horses that make it to the UL. Look at Donnerhall - he’s longer than a submarine, has camped out hocks and one of the longest loin connections I’ve seen in a horse… and look at all of the extraordinary things that amazing horse has accomplished and passed on to his sons and daughters.

The dressage world has no short supply of horses that aren’t our “perfectly pretty neat in a box” ideal and they still perform quite successfully.

My point is, pretty is as pretty does. Yes, conformation should be a consideration but IMHO, when buying a horse that is doing the job you want, it is really secondary to the horse’s temperament and aptitude (which sometimes is not at ALL related to conformation) for what you are asking.

Now, when shopping for a green horse that ISN’T doing the job you want yet, that’s when conformation should come into play. IME, when shopping with clients, friends or trainers, we’ll pay more attention to conformation for the horses that haven’t proven they’re capable of being in our program yet – but for the ammies or the riders looking for a school-horse or a horse that is already in a program, the conformation is really secondary to soundness and mind.[/QUOTE]

Ok just needed to point out something… This is one of the weirdest descriptions I have ever read about Donnerhall. Have you ever seen him??? Do you even know what you are talking about?? He won the DLG Show in Hannover as a 3 year old, which is an in Hand show and his competition was World Cup I. Believe me if he would look like you describe him he would not have won. He was not supposed to. World Cup was the Favorite.
Please if you write something like this think twice…
A little picture show of Donnerhall…http://www.spirit-of-artramon.com/en/legend.html

Abbie.S · August 27, 2020, 9:05pm

[QUOTE=TickleFight;8680727]
I disagree. Tensely prancing around the pasture, likely with its hocks trailing out in a different zip code, is not collection. Though it sure does impress the uneducated eye.

Collection, as required in dressage, is born of relaxation. It’s totally different and has nothing to do with being “keyed up” or “snorty” or “excited.”

Saddle up that horse you just saw spronging around its paddock and ask it to repeat those flamboyant gaits, but this time with the stipulation of relaxation, bend, and elasticity… and keeping its hocks underneath its body.[/QUOTE]

I’m not talking about dressage or even riding. I’m talking about the most basic components of collection. The suggestion was made that any horse can collect, and they can. Big difference between the horse that runs around like a giraffe with its tail flipped over its back at the sight of a scary object and, for example, a stallion excited and prancing the fence line at the sight of a mare. Watch that horse, and you will see a lifted back and arched neck, an active SI and spring in the joints. These are the most basic components of collection.

My point was, the horse is naturally capable of creating this. Whether one can bring it out under saddle is another story.

beowulf · August 27, 2020, 9:05pm

[QUOTE=Manni01;8680822]
Ok just needed to point out something… This is one of the weirdest descriptions I have ever read about Donnerhall. Have you ever seen him??? Do you even know what you are talking about?? He won the DLG Show in Hannover as a 3 year old, which is an in Hand show and his competition was World Cup I. Believe me if he would look like you describe him he would not have won. He was not supposed to. World Cup was the Favorite.
Please if you write something like this think twice…
A little picture show of Donnerhall…http://www.spirit-of-artramon.com/en/legend.html[/QUOTE]

Oh please Manni01.
Donnerhall:
http://www.stallions-online.net/stallions/img/donnerhall_dressage_stallion.jpg
http://mhverband.weebly.com/uploads/4/7/6/5/4765055/4452708.jpg?411
http://www.firstflightfarm.com/images/740/0/donnerhall.jpg
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/fotos/0/372950_3.jpg
http://www.northparkequestrian.co.nz/wp-content/gallery/site_single/donnerhall.jpg

he does not fit in a box in any way, unless that box is built for a refrigerator. still, he accomplished many great things. anyone that denies he’s extremely long backed and has an extremely long loin connection is in denial. nearly half of those pictures of him not face on prove my point.

Argo · August 27, 2020, 9:05pm

[QUOTE=Manni01;8680822]
Ok just needed to point out something… This is one of the weirdest descriptions I have ever read about Donnerhall. Have you ever seen him??? Do you even know what you are talking about?? He won the DLG Show in Hannover as a 3 year old, which is an in Hand show and his competition was World Cup I. Believe me if he would look like you describe him he would not have won. He was not supposed to. World Cup was the Favorite.
Please if you write something like this think twice…
A little picture show of Donnerhall…http://www.spirit-of-artramon.com/en/legend.html[/QUOTE]

Ok ok, hang on for the derail and brace for the G’s.

What is with the gold-wrapped fella next to the gold-wrapped horse statue in the slideshow?

P.s. I adore Donnerhall

SusanO · August 27, 2020, 9:05pm

HUH??? He is built like a dressage horse, not a racehorse. And like most top dressage horses he is built on a rectangle and not a square. I don’t see anything wonky about his conformation.

beowulf · August 27, 2020, 9:05pm

[QUOTE=SusanO;8680887]
HUH??? He is built like a dressage horse, not a racehorse. And like most top dressage horses he is built on a rectangle and not a square. I don’t see anything wonky about his conformation.[/QUOTE]

Who on earth said anything about racehorses? Are you saying he is not long in the back? Countless, countless authorities on the subject of conformation say that the ideal horse fits into three boxes - shoulder, barrel, and hindquarter. Don’t get me wrong, I love Donnerhall - but that doesn’t make me not see him for what he is, which is a long-backed horse. But he accomplished so much anyway. That was my point, that the OP should be looking beyond conformation and look for suitability and temperament first.

HSS · August 27, 2020, 9:06pm

Goodness gracious!

I think a few of you guys need some education about conformation here. Donnerhall long backed? Criminy! He’s a dressage horse, not a jumper!

Having seen the horse in person, believe you me, he looked the epitome of a moving equestrian statue. Incredible presence, gorgeous movement, what a neck on him!

Considering he is the MOST sought after bloodlines in dressage breeding today, long after his passing, it’s because he produces not only correct conformation, which produces MOVEMENT, but he also passes character- which is what we breeders refer to as a horse that wants to work for it’s rider and is a pleasure to train.

Negro, Totallis, and Vallegro have almost perfect textbook conformation as well, in particular Negro. That’s what all those little lines are for…to help you train your eye.

Does conformation count? According to some of the posters here, it’s kind of an after thought. Don’t be fooled by such nonsense- conformation certainly does count- and it counts a LOT. Without conformation, there is no horse, starting with his feet.

Would I take a horse with a few minor conformational flaws and a great character over a horse with a crappy character and perfect conformation? Of course. A great character in horses, just as in people, is a high guarantee of success. I think we all know people with tons of talent that never amount to anything, that just diddle their lives away, while people with less talent and more motivation succeed brilliantly. Horses are no different than us, that’s why we get along.

But frankly, there is no real reason to make huge compromises when buying a horse. Horses are very well bred for purpose today, and breeders spend an inordinate amount of time and effort to produce horses which are sound in body and mind- take the effort to find one.

I am in the midst of finalizing a purchase of a young prospect, and trust me, when he walked out of his stall and I saw his conformation I KNEW he was the “one”. He was picture perfect- almost flawlessly built. Then he moved, and confirmed it. Then I worked with him and found him to be intelligent and trainable. Took me less than 20 minutes to evaluate him and determine he was the horse I’ve been seeking. Would have been really nice if I could have ridden him, but then I wouldn’t have been able to afford him

Those of you who are posting such nonsense need to educate yourselves and be honest about your goals and skill level. A horse with such conformational defects that only can make it to training level is NOT what the OP is seeking. If you want a horse like that, you can buy one from the BLM for $50.00 just up the road from me.

mvp · August 27, 2020, 9:06pm

[QUOTE=Abbie.S;8680677]
For what it’s worth, anyone who has seen a horse of any kind, out in a field, get keyed up, snorty and excited and float around the field has seen a horse in some degree of collection.[/QUOTE]

Hmm. Your description makes me think of suspension, not collection. I can picture the Arabian trotting around like that, hocks way, way out behind him.

I ride a horse like this. Collection in any way we think of-- pelvis tucked, hocks underneath him, “sitting” and pushing from behind, in a sustained manner-- that will never be easy for this horse.

In fact, I have learned a lot watching this horse in his snorty fanciness running around loose. I can see the difference between a horse with lots of hock action that’s good, and hocks that get lots of angulation… but which includes the leg farther out behind the horse than reached under him.

mvp · August 27, 2020, 9:06pm

[QUOTE=HSS;8681138]
G

Negro, Totallis, and Vallegro have almost perfect textbook conformation as well, in particular Negro. That’s what all those little lines are for…to help you train your eye.[/QUOTE]

I’m always up for some education. I though the three pictures with those guidelines superimposed on them was helpful. But! It also showed horses doing one job (UL dressage) with three different geometries. So how can all three variants be “textbook”?

My other question: Why do you guys (or at least one poster above) think a long neck is a problem equal in size to a short neck? I’d take a long neck “issue” over a short neck problem any day of the week. In fact, I think I’d like a neck that’s a tad on the long side for a dressage horse. At least, I’d that would be good so long as the neck did not tie in low, had some natural muscle on the top side just ahead of the withers and came out of the shoulder going “up” a bit, not on the horizontal. I have a good-sounding biomechanical story all made up about this. But what is your thinking on the disadvantages of a long neck?

TickleFight · August 27, 2020, 9:06pm

[QUOTE=Abbie.S;8680830]
The suggestion was made that any horse can collect, and they can. [/QUOTE]

I think some people here need to look up the definitions of words like

“any”

“every”

“all”

HSS · August 27, 2020, 9:06pm

[QUOTE=mvp;8681152]
I’m always up for some education. I though the three pictures with those guidelines superimposed on them was helpful. But! It also showed horses doing one job (UL dressage) with three different geometries. So how can all three variants be “textbook”?

My other question: Why do you guys (or at least one poster above) think a long neck is a problem equal in size to a short neck? I’d take a long neck “issue” over a short neck problem any day of the week. In fact, I think I’d like a neck that’s a tad on the long side for a dressage horse. At least, I’d that would be good so long as the neck did not tie in low, had some natural muscle on the top side just ahead of the withers and came out of the shoulder going “up” a bit, not on the horizontal. I have a good-sounding biomechanical story all made up about this. But what is your thinking on the disadvantages of a long neck?[/QUOTE]

Variability: In conformation there is perfect, then some window of acceptable variation. This is based on data and correlation of bone structure and performance. Of the horses pictured, Negro is the closest to perfect all around from what I see. But the other two are extremely close, all are well within acceptable variation. As is proven by their performance, eh?

Extremely long necked horses are very difficult to train in dressage because the neck needs to be attached to the withers for correct contact. Too long in the neck, and too thin in the throatlatch causes a disconnect- too much bending, and is a very difficult issue to correct. That makes things like shoulder-in a neck in instead.

Extremely short necked horses, even if the neck is attached in a higher set position as is desirable, are also a problem for the connection. Here, the horse has a hard time chewing the bit and coming through the topline, because the neck disconnects from the mouth at the poll. So the frame is affected, and it can also affect the entire balance of the horse.

MysticOakRanch · August 27, 2020, 9:06pm

[QUOTE=mvp;8681152]
I’m always up for some education. I though the three pictures with those guidelines superimposed on them was helpful. But! It also showed horses doing one job (UL dressage) with three different geometries. So how can all three variants be “textbook”?

My other question: Why do you guys (or at least one poster above) think a long neck is a problem equal in size to a short neck? I’d take a long neck “issue” over a short neck problem any day of the week. In fact, I think I’d like a neck that’s a tad on the long side for a dressage horse. At least, I’d that would be good so long as the neck did not tie in low, had some natural muscle on the top side just ahead of the withers and came out of the shoulder going “up” a bit, not on the horizontal. I have a good-sounding biomechanical story all made up about this. But what is your thinking on the disadvantages of a long neck?[/QUOTE]

Those are three very different types of horses. Actually Valegro is conformationally not the “ideal” for dressage, and there has been a lot of discussion about that - maybe the “ideal” needs to be revised. He has a shorter foreleg and is NOT uphill. And Totilas is more of a “square” then the desired dressage rectangle - shorter in the back then we normally look at for a dressage horse (which is probably why the collected work was SO easy for him). All three also share the common thread - excellent riding and training!

Donnerhall is very classic for a dressage horse - he is a bit longer in the back - but that generally makes an easier horse to bend, more supple, more flowing in the lateral work.

Long necks - harder to get a horse through because the horse often breaks over at the wrong spot - we end up with a collapse in the energy from hind end to mouth. Long necks are PRETTY but hard to ride.

Abbie.S · August 27, 2020, 9:08pm

[QUOTE=TickleFight;8681154]
I think some people here need to look up the definitions of words like

“any”

“every”

“all”[/QUOTE]

What’s your point? I explained where I was coming from, but instead of having intelligent discussion, you seem like you’d rather play semantics.

Collection has to start somewhere: a lifted back, increased coiling of the loin/SI joint, and a willingness to increase engagement of the hind legs…all of this leads to lift to some degree in the front end, a nice arch to the neck, etc. Barring physical injury or other physiological condition that prevents one of these things from happening, any horse is able to do this to some degree of their own volition. It’s up to the rider to determine how best to bring this out under saddle, and to temper to what degree the horse can demonstrate collection. My whole point was there is a huge range of DEGREES of collection, moving " round" being the lowest degree. I’ve yet to meet a horse that wasn’t able to be taught “round”.

mvp, I certainly agree that suspension is present in the stallion scenario, but that suspension is a by-product of the increased energy coming from the hind end. So I’m not thinking specially of suspension: one doesn’t teach a horse suspension, one teaches him how to soften, lift and use himself correctly, and the suspension increases as a result.

TickleFight · August 27, 2020, 9:10pm

[QUOTE=Abbie.S;8681625]
What’s your point? I explained where I was coming from, but instead of having intelligent discussion, you seem like you’d rather play semantics.

Collection has to start somewhere: a lifted back, increased coiling of the loin/SI joint, and a willingness to increase engagement of the hind legs…all of this leads to lift to some degree in the front end, a nice arch to the neck, etc. Barring physical injury or other physiological condition that prevents one of these things from happening, any horse is able to do this to some degree of their own volition. It’s up to the rider to determine how best to bring this out under saddle, and to temper to what degree the horse can demonstrate collection. My whole point was there is a huge range of DEGREES of collection, moving " round" being the lowest degree. I’ve yet to meet a horse that wasn’t able to be taught “round”.

mvp, I certainly agree that suspension is present in the stallion scenario, but that suspension is a by-product of the increased energy coming from the hind end. So I’m not thinking specially of suspension: one doesn’t teach a horse suspension, one teaches him how to soften, lift and use himself correctly, and the suspension increases as a result.[/QUOTE]

I said all horses can learn to carry a rider correctly on the bit. On the bit is not collection. There is no collection in first or training levels, yet the horse is supposed to be on the bit.

My horse lifts his back when he puts his head down to graze. That is not the same thing as lifting his back while sitting, carrying, and raising his shoulders. Saying it’s the same is ridiculous.

You, yourself, said your mare - whom you describe as physically ill-suited to dressage - will never progress beyond first level. But you also claim that every horse is capable of collection, and that you are “decently skilled and able to bring up horses relatively easily on my own.” So which is it? Either your horse is perfectly capable of collection (since, as you argue, all horses are) but you aren’t actually that skilled, or she can’t collect due to her own physical limitations.

Beentheredonethat · August 27, 2020, 9:10pm

ALL horses are capable of collection. Whether it’s worth the time and effort to work on that for dressage is another whole issue. Horses can bring up their backs when they graze or get up or lay down. But they collect and work when they go up hill or down or collect to buck or kick. It’s ridiculous, TickleFight, that you pretend you don’t know this.

So, to the POINT, all horses are capable of doing some level of dressage. It’s just a matter of the quality, and the time and effort you want to put into it to get a certain score. Hey, if you have a Belgian that may not have the best gaits or collection,but you love the horse and have trained it to collect the best he can and do changes, why shouldn’t you compete 3rd? So what if you only get into the 50’s? If that’s what you want to do, do it.

In general, you want a horse that has physical capabilities better suited to dressage if you want to do somewhat well in the dressage show ring. All horses are capable of collection. Most horses bred with any purpose of athletic ability in that direction can collect enough for 3rd level.

beowulf · August 27, 2020, 9:10pm

[QUOTE=HSS;8681138]
Goodness gracious!