Help with leg yeild

[Draftmare]

Mare and I have have kind of hit a brick wall with our leg yields, and nothing my instructor is telling me seems to help. I am hoping that somebody else can give me a different insight on things I might be able to try. She will cross over in front no problem under saddle and in hand, and she will side pass no problem, however when we do leg yield she kind of rushes towards the wall in a somewhat sideways manner crossing over in front, but letting her hind end come because it is attached. My instructor is having me either stop her and ask for side pass, then go back to asking for leg yield when she gets rushy, or tap her with my whip on her butt when the inside hind comes forward to encourage it to cross over instead. Neither seem effective in getting her to cross over behind except maybe one stride right as we reach the wall.

I think part of my problem is that my mare is super flexible through her neck and shoulders. She can do a perfect showmanship pivot for days. However, she is rather stiff through the rest of her body. She is more than willing to twist herself into a pretzel if it means she can avoid crossing over with the hind end.

Anybody have any other thoughts on what I can try?

[dotneko]

Have you done turn on the forehand? That is the precursor to leg-yielding. It gets the hind legs moving more than the fronts. Once that is done confidently, the leg yielding is easy.

[beowulf]

Try leg yielding away from the wall. Many horses will recognize patterns and will volunteer to do them for you, and don’t get that the exercise is more about the method than the destination - lots of school horses will know to expect a leg yield when they turn up the quarterline, it’s really a matter of keeping the work varied and not letting them predict what you want for you.

I don’t think that will solve the lack of engagement and crossover behind, but it will help with the rubber-shoulder and rushing towards the wall.

My guy hit that wall last year too, and I’ll admit, it was because I didn’t confirm his TOF before really schooling leg yields. I got the TOH down-pat and then started introducing leg yielding in hand, and then moved on to leg yields under saddle and small baby shoulder-ins. He was so amenable and quick-study that I kind of glossed over a crucial component in his education, and it bit me in the tushus one lesson when I could not get him straight in the leg yield. After that, I spent a lot more time refining the difference in aids between TOF and TOH too because in the beginning he kept offering TOH when I wanted TOF. So I ended up spending a lot more time than I needed to, just to fix something that shouldn’t have been a problem if I had done my ABCs instead of doing A-C, no B. It happens - none of us are perfect, especially not me – but I think often times when we hit a wall in our training it can be fixed if we go back and figure out what we might have missed in the process.

[Draftmare]

@beowulf

Try leg yielding away from the wall. Many horses will recognize patterns and will volunteer to do them for you, and don’t get that the exercise is more about the method than the destination - lots of school horses will know to expect a leg yield when they turn up the quarterline, it’s really a matter of keeping the work varied and not letting them predict what you want for you.

I don’t think that will solve the lack of engagement and crossover behind, but it will help with the rubber-shoulder and rushing towards the wall.

My guy hit that wall last year too, and I’ll admit, it was because I didn’t confirm his TOF before really schooling leg yields. I got the TOH down-pat and then started introducing leg yielding in hand, and then moved on to leg yields under saddle and small baby shoulder-ins. He was so amenable and quick-study that I kind of glossed over a crucial component in his education, and it bit me in the tushus one lesson when I could not get him straight in the leg yield. After that, I spent a lot more time refining the difference in aids between TOF and TOH too because in the beginning he kept offering TOH when I wanted TOF. So I ended up spending a lot more time than I needed to, just to fix something that shouldn’t have been a problem if I had done my ABCs instead of doing A-C, no B. It happens - none of us are perfect, especially not me – but I think often times when we hit a wall in our training it can be fixed if we go back and figure out what we might have missed in the process.

That sounds a lot like us. When asking for turn on the forehand, she will either “turn on the middle” or side pass. We did eventually get some decent ones, and then I kind of moved on because they were rough, and they weren’t required for our tests like turn on the haunches is. She will also do shoulder in beautifully. Anything that has to do with her front end she is a quick study on, hind end not so much, though lately we have really rocketed forward on getting consistent engagement instead of her letting her hocks trail as well as much nicer and uphill canter depart.

I guess I will go back to turn on the forehand (uuuuugh) and start over with that.

I don’t even work on leg yield every ride any more because she would get squirrely on the quarter lines, and sometimes even center line thinking that a leg yield was coming. She is a HUGE antipator. For a while when we first introduced our turns, she couldn’t even halt quietly because she was expecting a pivot. I can’t even run my tests front to back more than once in a row without her thinking she knows whats up. Bad pony. :lol:

[netg]

Try turn on the forehand from the ground. The same as you do from the saddle, basically, but your hand is pulsing the aid to step over rather than your leg. From there, you can go on to leg yield.

How are you riding the leg yield? I would be exaggerating looking away from the direction you’re going to ensure your seat is saying “get your butt over!” Looking rotates your body to get your seat positioned correctly. Also, is your horse on the aids honestly when you’re asking? The running through the shoulder sounds as if you don’t have an effective half halt working at the time. I’d be going for LESS cross and more straightness, riding for more correct forward energy instead of an evasive run.

[merrygoround]

You can also ride two steps forward, and two steps sideway. As you do feel how your outside leg feels going forward. That same feel will prevent the horse from leading with the shoulder while going sideway. In riding LY, it is one step forward, then half-halt to allow to the cross over. the forward. For a horse that zips sideways in a side pass ,lighten your half halt and increase your forward. If the hind end legs, a tap with the whip in the rhythm will help.Another key thing is to face absolutely foward. Use the corners of your eyes to select a letter to aim for.

This is the first time that a rider has to be able to separate their aids while going forward.

[dotneko]

It is also helpful, once the moving over aids are established, to bring both hands slightly to the inside. That slows the shoulders and lets the hindquarters catch up. While the horse should carry slight inside flexion, be sure that the outside rein can guard the outside shoulder from falling through the aids.

[Heinz_57]

I’m no expert, but I would do two things, in this situation. First, I would go back to the walk (assuming you are referring to LY while trotting), where things are much slower and you can Ride. Every. Step. Exactly. If you can’t get a proper turn on the forehand with the horse solidly in your outside rein, definitely practice that until you can! Secondly, I would go back to only doing 2-3 steps of LY at a time, or however many “correct” steps you can get before the shoulder bulges and drags you off. The key is to stop the LY before it falls apart, praise, and go straight. Horsie really needs to be on the aids and filling out that outside rein (which does not mean over-bent!) before beginning.

I might also take a closer look to make sure there isn’t some soreness in the hind end somewhere that is limiting her flexibility. It could just be a laziness/strength issue, but you never know.

[Synthesis]

Start with TOF at the halt, carrying a dressage whip. Slide the leg back for your ‘move the hind end’ cue, reach back and tap lightly, repeatedly with the dressage whip. DO NOT ESCALATE. The whip should be held low and used on the actual hind leg, until she steps away from it in annoyance. Immediately cease tapping and throw a party. Let her figure out that she can make the tapping stop. (And I mean tap. Don’t turn up the volume when she doesn’t have the vocabulary)

Repeat a few times on one side, then same on other. Drop it for the day. Repeat next ride.

If she steps forward, just quietly go back to halt/slide leg back/tap. Eventually she will figure out that the cue doesn’t mean forward, it means over. She will start to move the hind end over when your leg slides back.

[Willesdon]

Don’t forget circle work to help get the back end more engaged. Spiralling in and out can help the horse sort out what you are up to.

[Dressagelvr]

How is the contact in your outside rein? That is a big part of what stops the shoulder from leading.

[SuzieQNutter]

Never do the same thing in a row to minimize anticipation.

More outside rein. The withers stay in the middle of your hands. Move your hands to where you want the withers to be.

[ladyj79]

Yes to a few steps forward, few steps leg yield. few steps forward, few steps leg yield.

Yes to spiral in, spiral out.

Did anyone say shoulder in, shoulder out, haunches in, haunches out. Same thing as with leg yield, a few steps in position, then a few steps straight.

Yes to more…outside hand. DO NOT let the shoulder rush ahead. This I think works especially well in coordination with few steps forward, few steps in position. Do not be afraid to lift the hands to help control the shoulder, but make sure you maintain very active hinds. This is why a few steps on and a few steps off is so important. It is all about correctness, quality over quantity.

[Engage]

I’m struggling a bit with our LY at the moment as well, more my fault than his. Darn schoolmasters…

One thing I need to be aware of is his hindquarters trailing BUT when he does that, I don’t try to get the hindquarters to catch up. Rather ask the shoulders to slow down. This sometimes means stopping the whole movement and asking him to move forward straight first and then going back into the LY.

[dotneko]

LOL - that’s what I meant when I said bring both hands slightly to inside without crossing the withers. It slows the shoulders. Very hard to speed up the hindquarters, easier to slow the shoulders.

[Zonderpaard]

If the horse is barrelling to the wall, the outside rein application is faulty.

If you are attempting leg yield and the horse’s shoulder falls thru, simply straighten and halt. Not roughly or abruptly, but very clearly. When the half halt does not go thru, the correction is full halt. Stand there a bit, at attention, and then trot depart. Straight ahead. Make a square corner BEFORE the short end of the ring and then turn onto next quarterline. You need to work on your doing the turning instead of your horse going by braille following the rail. Straight on next quarterline, initiate leg yield. Correct as/if needed again.

You can do this same thing as leg yield away from the wall or QL to CL.

Another interesting exercise is to work the leg yields in trot towards the wall (QL > wall or CL > QL) and when you reach the end of the legyield line, IMMEDIATELY straighten to a near shoulder fore position and CANTER. If you can do this, you KNOW your outside rein is functioning and it also corrects for on the forehand sprawlage. Esp if you have an anticipator, do some corrrections of halt and some with canter. Makes them much more rideable.

I suspect that your shoulder in is not as good as you may believe if leg yield gives you so much trouble. Because both are critically dependent on an effective outside rein. Your troubles with turn on the belly button are diagnostic.

If the horse is tricky at falling thru the outside and the rider doesn’t have the right feel of the connecting/containing the outside shoulder, spiral exercises can make the problem worse by encouraging the rider to belabor the sideways aids, bend the horse more (when what is needed is straight), and just generally gumby around more.

[no.stirrups]

This is not a horse problem, it’s a rider problem. Refocusing your attention to you will result in a quicker resolution. You allow her to get crooked in leg yield so her shoulders fall out, and you let her do turns about the center instead of turns on the forehand. So you need to learn to control her every step, regardless of exercise. If you were my student I would be working on this on straight lines, circles, through corners, and other schooling exercises because I bet even then the horse isn’t following exactly the line you want her on and staying straight at all times. Adding an element of sideways is overly complicating the situation. In particular, I would spend some time focusing on the role of the outside rein in keeping the horse straight, and riding into the outside rein from the inside leg. Once you get the individual pieces, then you will have a much easier time putting them together into leg yield.

[RedHorses]

Do you ever do a head to wall leg yield? This can be helpful in allowing you to figure out the use of the outside rein. I agree with the others that outside rein is key, but I would add that the timing of the outside rein aid is also important. When you get that timing right, I find the hind end swings over. It’s not just more outside rein as you don’t want to hang on it. If you start with your dominant hand as the outside hand you will probably find it easier as well as we tend to go to our dominant hand to “fix” things when we are having trouble.

One thing to note is that some horses can’t do a head to wall leg yield right at the wall, but can do it on an inside (2-3m or so) track. This allows a little space for the accidental forward step without the horse bumping the wall, but you still have the wall visually blocking forward for the horse.

[Philippi]

Leg yield on a circle. Horse can’t go anywhere but around again and they get that. You also have ample space to find that sweet spot in your body that encourages the horse to lift and move out with the hind while not running away from you in the front end. The possibility is infinite

[Draftmare]

Thanks for all the advice. I have gone back to including the spiral in our schooling and working on turn on the forehand and improving it. However, our turns have gotten…worse…not better. She is starting to want to turn on the middle again. How does everybody cue for their turns?