Help with medical causes for bucking/bolting/anxiety

Here’s my list of things to rule out, in order:

Ulcers
EPM
Lyme or other tick borne
Kissing Spine or other neuro disorder
Vision

None of these are terribly expensive to diagnose; moderately expensive to treat.

I wouldn’t do the full body scan, because it’s so likely to find things that are not causing the problem.

I would also be realistic about the time and money you’re willing to put in. I feel sorry for the horse, because I think he’s in pain. But at this point, he is truly dangerous. If treating him for ulcers or EPM or Lyme brings an immediate improvement in his symptoms, that’s one thing.
But I wouldn’t continue to pour money into a demonstrably dangerous horse looking for the magic solution.

Also, ask yourself a really hard question - if you find something, and ulcers or EPM are the most likely, and he’s treated successfully, are you going to be able to trust this horse to ride again? You can’t sell him on; so if you can’t get him to where you’re comfortable riding him, he’d have to be retired.

It’s not his fault, but this is NOT a happy horse with good quality of life. If diagnosis and treatment doesn’t provide a solution fairly quickly, I would make the hard decision to euth.

So, so sorry you’re going through this.

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Start by cataloging all the symptoms, both under saddle and on the ground. If you have a timeline and videos from a few months ago, years ago that might also be useful.

You are getting all kinds of advice on what the problem might be, but once you get to an expert, your time (and theirs!) is best used by defining the problems you have seen, not what or where you think the problem might be.

You might also ask the two trainers who worked with him to describe any issues that they had. Chances are there was more than what you heard, it’s just those were things they may have originally thought would be resolved with more training, but they may give the vets more context today.

As a side note, if a horse flunks out of two good trainers, there is a chance they encountered the one type of horse we all fear: the one that does not care if it kills itself while trying to kill you. There’s a lot of horses that can really hurt you if they have a behavioral issue or a medical issue, in fact pretty much all of them fall into that a category. Most try very hard not to hurt people, some don’t care about you but still have a healthy sense of self preservation. A very small fraction do not. I’m not saying this horse is it, but it’s something to be aware of, and possibly something to question those trainers about.

The fact that he was a lesson/trail horse certainly doesn’t sound like like that type of horse, but it may be that pressure is the trigger. If he feels like he is in charge, it’s all good, he’s a player, and maybe that was just the circumstances of his old job. Nothing they did pushed his buttons, and maybe they did get a sense of what he could be like and moved him along. It could have been not terribly ethical or something they genuinely thought would be easily fixable with an experienced rider. But now pressure is applied, and there is a reaction. Pressure in this sense is a training tool, it could be physical pressure, such as stand still for a minute longer than you want, yield to the bit, yield to the leg, followed by a more insistent aid if there was not any acceptable response. Somewhere along this training spectrum is usually where you discover this type of horse, and once you’ve found him it’s not easy to unfind him so to speak. He’s figured out what works and he doesn’t care if he dies for his cause. I’ve dealt with one of those in my life and she was beyond terrifying. A 2 year old in training, she came to my care after she chose to run straight into a wall in the shedrow (hurting her rider) then she ran out to the track and took up a section of the old wood rail with her shoulder (300 stitches and she was still sound). After she recovered only the farm manager would work her. When she went to the track, after a couple gallops with the trainer’s normal riders, he decided that only he would ride her because he sensed the same thing we did. She made it about 1 month in before she damn near killed him, he ended up in the hospital with ribs and punctured lung and multiple other injuries. She broke to the infield of the training track once again, taking up the rail with her shoulder and continued on to the infield pond where she drowned, which was probably best for all concerned. At the time I was young and couldn’t put a name to it, but there was something about her that had all the best horseman on their toes. Over the next few years her half and full siblings came through the training barn and every last one of them was foot perfect and nice race horses to boot. I even found one of them in the tail line of a derby runner decades later.

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@4horses He was tested for PSSM1, and was negative. We didn’t look for PSSM2. I don’t believe we tested for Lyme-- will double check with vet when I speak with her. PTSD has also crossed our minds. Regarding the trainers: the first trainer is definitely a cowboy-style trainer, but I don’t think he’s excessively rough. I’ve watched him with a lot of horses, and while he’s not not going to pour affection on the horses, he strikes me as very fair with them. My other horse, a very opinionated mare who is not afraid to share those opinions, was with him for 30 days after I first bought her, and she was crazy about him-- met him at the gate every day. I don’t know the second trainer well (who was recommended by the first trainer), but I spoke to the rider there for a long time and she talked a lot about the desensitization activities she had planned and so on.

@Posting_Trot Yes, will ask.

@McGurk The list is useful and seems to match up with what others are saying. We have had EPM at the barn, so it is not unreasonable to check for and could be done at the vet hospital. Barring a miraculous change in his temperament, I don’t think I’ll be riding this horse again, regardless of the outcome of treatment. I have too much trauma associated with him at this point (7 months after the accident, I still have a panic attack whenever there’s an unexpected loud sound). I had thought that if I figure out the problem, figure out a treatment, see a huge change in his demeanor and behavior on the ground, send him to a (third!) trainer who does well with him under saddle, then I’d be ethically clear to sell him to an advanced/pro rider with complete disclosure. Do you think that wouldn’t be fair to the rider? (And wow, writing it out like that sure makes it seem like a lot.).

@DMK I have his sales videos-- that’s all. The newest is a year old, and shows kids riding him. I shared them with the trainers and can also share with the vet. I agree with all your assessments of his behavior (including the danger, that this is a possible response to pressure, and the rest). These are the same conclusions we had to come if we conclude that it is purely behavioral. Just want to rule out some of the most obvious medical things first, and I have a lot of good ideas from this thread. If we find something and can ethically rehome after treating, great; if not, at least we’ll have some peace of mind.

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Thank you all. I continue to appreciate the advice. I had feared that I would be overwhelmed with suggestions of rare diseases, but there are some strong commonalities in these responses, and that’s very helpful.

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If I missed this, I apologize, but has he been tested for lyme? I have had two developed slight neuro symptoms when they had lyme. They were not aggressive, but they both did that “checked out” thing.

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I don’t remember. I will double check.

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Honestly, that type of horse can be behavioral or medical, and truthfully most of them probably are medical, just maybe not in a way we understand with our limited diagnostics. The challenge is that the “no self preservation” aspect is a component of the horse’s behavior, and even when the pain is gone, the behavior is still always lurking, especially once the horse has learned that it works. And even when it doesn’t work a few times, they tend to keep going back to the well until it does…Which is all to say, IF this horse is this type, you may still have some tough decisions ahead of you even if you get lucky and find the easy medical answer…

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If you know his breeder, I would try contacting them. See if they want him back as a pasture pet.

Unfortunately if he was ridden by kids, it can explain his behavior. Horses ridden by kids can learn all sorts of bad behaviors. Like bolting towards home and if they buck, the kid falls off. Then you have a horse that knows how to unseat a rider. Add in an adult rider and they can escalate the behavior and if they threw the kid off, well the parents could have thrashed him for it. Then you end up with an angry and unhappy horse with behavioral problems.

I had one horse I was offered on free lease. Rode him on a trail ride and he was decent but a bit rushy towards home. Tried riding him in my front pasture and the very first thing he tried was taking me to the gate, ramming it with his chest and when I insisted he go forward, he proceeded to threaten to rear, then dragged me into the trees and tried to brush me off on them. He would ride well on trail rides provided you were doing what he wanted to do. But if he wanted to go left and you wanted to go right, he would drag you off and if that didn’t work, try to rear and run you into the bushes. We tried ponying him,but he would pull back until he took the rope away and proceed to rear. In his case, he had been ridden by hard handed kids, had a completely insensitive mouth, an iron hard neck, and did not want to or know how to bend or give to the bridle and he knew he could get his way. I never felt like I could trust him and his owner sold him at auction.

I assumed I could probably get him though it, but I didn’t want to argue with him every ride and then he would end up being my horse forever because you couldn’t trust him not to do the same with someone else.

He was mentally very dominant and determined to get his way. This was a personality trait or behavior and had nothing to do with pain, as far as I could tell. My plan to get him through the behavior involved riding him in fields and anytime he argued, getting off and lunging him until he realized it was more work to argue then to do as he was told. But he was definitely the type of horse to decide well plan A didn’t work, what happens if I try plan B or C? You just couldn’t trust him not to try something mischievous.

But there’s a difference between a horse doing a behavior deliberately vs one that is reacting based on fear- spooking, bolting, and bucking sound more like fear based behaviors. And fear based behaviors are very difficult to address, if it’s not medical.

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Honestly, what you’ve described so far is pretty consistent with acute ulcers. Second choice is EPM, because there’s a huge variety in EPM symptoms, depending on where the EPM lesions are.

Yes, it’s a lot. If you’re willing to go that route to try to avoid the euth decision, that’s an option. However, bear in mind that if he has a reoccurrence of symptoms after he’s out of your control, he’s not going to have a good end. Don’t ask me how I know this or ask to hear the story. Be very sure the issue is resolved before sending him to a trainer or putting up for sale.

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Practically speaking, you also have to consider whether an advanced/pro rider would even want to buy him. Unless there’s some serious talent under all his issues I think that’s unlikely, especially with his history. And I agree that it’ll be hard to be sure the problem is resolved, so there’d still be a risk that he would go on to hurt someone or wind up in a bad situation.

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I do not know his breeder. I do not know his history prior to the lesson/sales barn from two owners (~2-3 years) ago.

He wasn’t owned by a kid, as far as I’m aware. The kids in the sales video that I mentioned were not there to show “oh, look, he’s so safe with kids.” They were riding nicely to demonstrate his gaits for the video, and it just happened that one of the riders was a kid (teenager, probably).

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No young kids, no bareback. The video was showing his movement (WTC, like you mentioned) and it happened that one of the riders was a kid. They weren’t doing anything an adult wouldn’t have done. Though, of course, I don’t know his history in the lesson barn.

The vet and farrier haven’t mentioned being afraid of him, but they’re not necessarily the type to say anything.

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After reading all the responses, I am pretty certain that I will do the Ulcergard trial and test for EPM.

The only way that someone gets in the saddle again is if there is a very, very clear change in his nervousness, demeanor, and behavior on the ground. I’m not going to risk anybody’s well-being on the basis of “oh, maybe he’s a little bit better, let’s try him under saddle and see what happens…” It has to be abundantly clear to me and the barn staff who interact with him that things are resolved (not just improved, but resolved), before I try that.

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My initial thinking is that it might be possible-- the non-Friesian half of his cross is a rare breed that has a bit of a cult following. (There are no medical issues associated with that breed that are relevant to this discussion, and it’s a small enough breed that identifying it would identify this horse. That’s the only reason I’m not sharing it publicly.) But I understand what you are saying and I’ve had the same conversation many times with the trainers. It is at the forefront of my mind in all of this.

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It could be something in his feed or bedding. A blood test is available now that tells you all sorts of things. I don’t think it’s too expensive - worth a try.

I asked you about color to see if he’s a gray. Melanomas can also cause weird problems. But he’s not, so you can scratch that possibility.

Good luck.

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I understand how my phrasing may have been confusing. Apologies for that! I only noted it because while I can imagine an unscrupulous seller drugging a truly dangerous horse or doing something else to keep it together for purposes of a sales video, it’s harder for me to think that they’d do that with a kid rider when an adult rider is available. (Not impossible, just less likely.) Though as I mentioned before, I have no reason to think these sellers were unscrupulous.

The dangerous behavior on the ground so far has been limited to the three incidents I mentioned earlier (though his anxiety is escalating), and the vet/farrier have not interacted with him extensively. Whether he was nervous with them, I don’t remember. Even though it’s been 7 months since the concussion I got from my fall, my memory is still not good and I tend to forget details unless I make a specific effort to remember them.

Turnout: he had 24/7 solo turnout in a dirt pen with run-in when I bought him. Now he has group turnout in a large pasture for 12+ hours a day, and is stalled at night. He was on grass prior to living at the stable where I saw him, but I think that might also have been 24/7. Not sure about the lesson place.

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I had one with almost identical symptoms. He had been passed around before I got him and it was easy to see why. When he was good he was lovely. And young. And cute. When he had an episode it was sudden and violent and very dangerous. After putting him down the necropsy showed Wobbler’s. Poor guy.

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I admire your thoughtfulness.

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Do ulcers present with purely behavioral symptoms like this? His coat looks good, he likes to eat, no cribbing, no weight loss, he is not in the least bit girthy, he doesn’t object to being brushed along his flanks, when we lunge him he does not swish his tail or appear to move abnormally (though I admit that neither my instructor nor I is a lameness specialist). Sometimes he might be nervous during these activities, but it’s no more or less likely than during any other activity.

Yes, they can absolutely present as purely behavioral. Especially if it was a matter of his stomach started feeling increasingly painful after a big move/life change, then he “exploded” and people were suddenly handling him differently.

Most working horses will deal with some degree of ulcers in their lives. They are relatively easy to address and rule out. You don’t even need to do gastrogard/Ulcergard if the price is causing you to pause. You can do a trial with Nexium or order off label omeprazole from Abler.

Also, ulcers do not cause cribbing. Cribbing is it’s own thing.

There are about a million reasons that could be causing your horse to behave the way he is behaving. The best thing you can do is start ticking off the boxes with the “easy” stuff to try.

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