Help with understanding founder

[redandwhite]

Hello,
I recently got my wonder horse back. She’s elderly, and foundered 8 months ago. I am trying to understand what that means now regarding her care.

I understand that there are many different causes for founder, and I am not sure which one hers is. I am guessing because she’s older it was a blood sugar thing from too much grass, but it could have been too much grain, a fever, a colic, etc. I know that each of these causes has a different set of after care required to fix the root of the problem. When it happened she was tested for cushings but it came back negative, but I understand the test for it is awfully unreliable.

She is in a hogfuel pen right now, but my barn owner wants to make a paddock for her because she cant stay in that pen long term, it belongs to the cows. She’s there quarantining. The owner wants to make her a paddock by mowing down a space in the grassy field they have(and taking the cut stuff out). Would that still leave too much grass? Or am I being paranoid? I hear as grass grows back it’s the sweetest, which if her founder was due to sugar could be detrimental. Is that true? Is a mowed down paddock that’s already been eaten down work at all or do I need to find her another barn where she can be away from grass? How much grass is too much, like how careful do I have to be exactly. If she pulls me over and grabs a bite of grass when walking her would that be enough to trigger another episode? Im relying on my vet to help explain a lot of this stuff but I’m stressing about it. The vet comes on Monday.

Will she ever be allowed to be turned out on grass? If it were introduced extremely slowly say next summer would she be allowed it? I’m not sure if horses go “back to normal” after a certain amount of time with medications and time. I guess that has to do with what caused it in the first place.

I have put her on a small scoop(it’s a small beer mug, maybe 2 cups) of 12% pellets so I could whomp in some supplements (magnesium, willow, vitamins (all in one)) twice a day. Is that too much grain? I emailed my vet but didnt get very clear answers back- they want to see her in person, and I understand that. I was thinking switching her to something with rice bran in it might be nice for her weight- she’s a skinny thing right now.

Sorry for the scattered thoughts. I have never dealt with founder in all my 30 years in the horse world, so all I know are the very very basics, and I might not even have those right.

Thanks

[sascha]

@redandwhite

Will she ever be allowed to be turned out on grass?

This depends on the cause. If you can figure that out, you may have your answer.

My horse was back on grass about 6 months or so post founder and has been ok for 5 years now. BUT, her root cause was not metabolic.

[redandwhite]

what was her root cause, do you know?

[sascha]

Basically ‘road’ founder from putting all her weight on an uninjured leg during recovery from an injury to the other leg. Being overweight did not help. That and my delay in adjusting feed intakes from hard-working to couch-potato levels were the straw that broke the camel’s back. But, the overweight part was just overweight from too many calories - not caused by a root metabolic issue.

None of that made it less awful, but it made post recovery easier than for a horse with metabolic issues whose diet really has to be managed carefully.

[fivestrideline]

IF it was metabolic, NSC is your enemy. Stressed grass, 12% pellet, and rice bran are all high in NSC. You’d be better off with a low NSC senior feed, but I defer to a nutritionist vet depending on her condition. I remember she’s thin but not emaciated.

If it was metabolic she could probably be fine on the mowed paddock with a grazing muzzle, and/or turned out at the right time of day. This will mean upping her hay. Is she on 24/7 turnout?

Don’t freak out yet. Talk to the vet, and get hoof rads if you can. I’d switch to a low NSC diet regardless, but you may have some wiggle room depending on her reason for founder. A few bites of grass probably won’t be an issue!

[redandwhite]

sorry, what’s NSC?

[fivestrideline]

Non-structural carbohydrates. Basically sugar/starch.

It’s listed on the feed bag of good feeds as a percentage. Most horses need to stay under 20% as I understand it, metabolic horses need to stay under 10%. This is for the total diet - if you’re feeding just a tiny bit of a high NSC supp but the rest of the diet is low, that’s different than a full serving of a sweet feed pellet.

[MorganMaresVT]

@redandwhite, given your questions, I would schedule that vet appointment ASAP and let them know you want to have a thorough discussion about laminitis post-care and run a metabolic blood panel, and likely take x-rays to establish a baseline on the state of her feet to monitor over time. I would be asking the vet to retest ACTH levels (and explain to you how to interpret these values to account for the “seasonal rise” given that hormones are elevated in the fall), and also to run glucose, leptin, and insulin values on your mare. The results of these tests will help you determine if metabolic issues are at the root of her laminitis episode, vs. the other potential causes you mentioned. If there are metabolic causes, that will also help you develop a plan for future feeding, including how to address turnout. If it turns out your horse has one of these disorders, you may very well need to go on a crash course in equine nutrition, which can seem overwhelming at first. But don’t get too far ahead of yourself until you have a solid understanding of your horse’s current state

If you get the sense your vet doesn’t really have much knowledge in this area, or worse, “doesn’t believe in Cushings or insulin resistance,” then you may need to find a different vet that can guide you. Please note that a horse doesn’t have to be obese, have visible fat pads, or a “weird” hair coat to be dealing with Equine Metabolic Syndrome (“insulin resistance”) or PPID (Cushings). And, even though she’s skinny now, she may have had problems with being overweight earlier in her life that put her on the path to laminitis.

Here are some resources to start educating yourself on metabolic disorders in horses:
https://cvm.msu.edu/vdl/client-education/guides-for-pet-owners/an-owners-guide-to-equine-metabolic-syndrome
https://cvm.msu.edu/vdl/client-education/guides-for-pet-owners/equine-endocrinology-pituitary-pars-intermedia-dysfunction-ppid
https://sites.tufts.edu/equineendogroup/

And an overview of NSC values in horse feed:
https://thehorse.com/158171/low-nsc-horse-feeds-what-kind-does-my-horse-need/

If you like podcasts:



(While “fat horses” are in the title of the above, the podcast episodes will give you an informative overview of the various metabolic issues)

[redandwhite]

WOW, THANK YOU!!
And yes, vet is coming with xray machine and will test blood.
we’ll get to the bottom of this. just dont want her to founder again in the meantime.

[Angela_Freda]

Dr Eleanor Kellon has also done some work in the area of metabolic horses and would be worth finding and following, iirc.

[OzarksRider]

@redandwhite, if your horse foundered 8 months ago that would have been in February. Is that right? You didn’t say where you are located, but in most of the US February is not a high risk time for grass laminitis, although if you live far enough south you could have lush grass at that time of year. Where I live, May and June are the most dangerous months. The risk declines later in the summer and early fall, then rises again when we start getting frosts.

My horse had a laminitis attack a little over 8 years ago, and his was definitely caused by eating too much rich grass. I made several changes in his management to restrict his grass intake. I stall him every night, all year. I feed him hay from summer grasses such as bermuda or bluestem because warm season grasses are lower in NSC (non-structural carbohydrates) than cool season grasses. He wears a grazing muzzle when he’s turned out during the spring, summer, and fall. During spring and summer I put him in a small dry lot with some hay for 3-4 hours during the day to give him a break from his muzzle and also get him off the grass for a little while. I monitor his digital pulses and watch for ouchy steps on gravel. If I can feel pulses or he’s tenderfooted he gets to spend even more time off the grass. He gets no grain, other than a balancing ration and a handful of oats twice a day.

I’ve found that I can ease up on my horse’s restrictions after the danger season has passed, usually around mid to late July. Your management strategy will depend on what caused the founder and the conditions where you live. Be prepared to make changes as needed, and follow your vet’s advice.

[redandwhite]

yes it would have been february, that’s correct. and this would be in eastern canada, so not grass as a cause, you’re right. but grass could cause it to come back I gather, even if it wasnt the initial cause? i really need test results to make better decisions.

you sound like you take wonderful care of your horse. do people get upset about the grazing muzzle? I’m worried people will think Im being mean, not that what others thinks is especially important, but it does bug me a little.

[Scribbler]

Laminitis and founder are related.

Laminitis is the acute inflammation phase, when the hoof is hot and the hoof capsule is loosened from the underlying tissues.

Founder is the chronic long term structural changes resulting from a bout of laminitis. The hoof capsule shifts so that the coffin bone is aligned wrong and the sole is therefore tender. There can be characteristic ridges in the hoof. The toe can get long and be concave

A horse can have an episode of laminitis but not founder. Having out of balance hooves or heels run forward add an extra risk factor to foundering from laminitis. A.horse with good angles who recieves prompt care may get through an acute laminitis episode without foundering, especially if it’s caused by a fever or vaccine rather than metabolic disorder.

A horse with an ongoing metabolic disorder may however have low grade laminitis for quite a while, and be slowly foundering before the owner notices and treats it.

A horse that has chronic permanent structural changes (founder) can have feet with no obvious inflammation (laminotis) but clear problems in angle

A horse with acute laminitis needs very soft footing, cloud boots, ice, bute and to stay quiet.

A horse with chronic founder structural changes needs to not have a new laminitis attack, but also benefits from cloud boots and therapeutic trimming to slowly repair the angles. They also benefit from large doses of copper zinc and biotin during the year you are growing out the damaged hoof. Pete Ramey has excellent resources on this.

Once a horse is metabolic and insulin resistant they need their diets managed for life like a human diabetic, low sugar and carb.

[candyappy]

@redandwhite

and I am not sure which one hers is

What would be really helpful for you and your vet is to try and find out what caused her founder 8 months ago.

I realize the previous owners were tight lipped about the mare but if she was boarded maybe the BO/ BM can elaborate? Or just come out and ask the owners if you can get a copy of her vet records of treatment/ diagnosis or talk to the vet that treated her??

[PaddockWood]

@redandwhite Can you find out why she developed laminitis? That would be SO helpful.

When your vet comes and you get xrays, pull blood to test insulin/glucose etc AND test ACTH you’ll know so much more.

On muzzling, mine are muzzled 16hrs a day and I like to say, “If you think muzzling is cruel, just imagine laminitis.” They say it feels like having your fingernails ripped off. Muzzling is simply irritating for the horse but they get used to it. Mine have no problem putting them on because they know it means they are going on the grass they love.

Cushings testing is reliable and for your old girl odds are quite in her favor she has it but maybe you’ll get lucky and she won’t. There is a seasonal rise so the numbers change in the fall but still useful. It’s still a number of great value.

Can you post pictures of her feet? It would be very useful to see them. Others make a good point that a well trimmed hoof has many advantages. Get down on the ground next to her and get upclose shots from the side, from the front, from the back, and the underside. Even one foot would be a great start.

Diet matters no matter what the results are of the testing. Sugar is the enemy for horses just like us. She needs plenty of zinc and copper (and usually quite deficient in pasture, hay, and commercial feed) so what products exactly are you feeding? You say she is skinny? When were her teeth done last? A good vet uses a speculum and a headlamp. Do you know if that was done. Know what? If your vet does dentistry and uses a speculum and head lamp have them check her teeth when they come if possible.

How about sending a manure sample for a FEC (fecal egg count) with them while they are there. Why not? It’s cheap and provides more information on the state of her health. When was she last dewormed and with what?

Most horses need a good, low sugar diet with plenty of protein, amino acids, along with basic vitamins and minerals. Was she on green pasture until she came to you or does she need vitamin E and is she getting loose salt added to her feed?

If you like podcasts (you can listen while you drive, do barnwork etc) a REALLY good one is The Humble Hoof and there are many episodes on laminitis and founder and feeding correctly etc. It’s a treasure.

https://thehumblehoof.com/blog/

If you do listen to podcasts (on your iPhone just download the Podcast app) I can point you to many episodes that might be of particular interest right now.

Here’s another awesome talk by Dr. Debra Taylor on the subject:

Educational Webinar on Laminitis with Dr. Debra Taylor

Once you get bloodwork back and see xray results you’ll know SO much more and have a direction for what is needed for her care (and figuring out WHY she had the event) then bigger decisions can be made. Until then, what needs to happen next is premature (like if you need to leave this barn). IMO anyways.

We’re here for you!

[MorganMaresVT]

@PaddockWood

On muzzling, mine are muzzled 16hrs a day and I like to say, “If you think muzzling is cruel, just imagine laminitis.” They say it feels like having your fingernails ripped off. Muzzling is simply irritating for the horse but they get used to it. Mine have no problem putting them on because they know it means they are going on the grass they love.

Yes, couldn’t have said it better! For a lot of horses, a dry lot with appropriate hay is a life line. Some of them can handle some time on grass if muzzled. Where I live, fall grass makes me more worried than spring grass for my Morgans. During the fall, this one has a muzzle on for a few hours a day and a dry lot with tested hay the rest of the time. She has never had any aversion to the muzzle.

[PaddockWood]

And oh my is she absolutely gorgeous and look how your muzzling keeps her weight so well in check. I too worry about the fall. Since moving my horses home I find I am so much more paranoid about laminitis. And having learned that we all have it happening more than we think. That’ll terrify ya let me tell ya.

And I meant to comment on your earlier reply to redandwhite. Very good advice.

[PaddockWood]

And I wanted to come back and add I’m no pro or vet but back over 20 yrs ago had my Arab dx’d insulin resistant so began the journey of finding Dr. Kellon, doing a nutritional consult with her, testing my hay and learning about proper feeding, hoofcare and the great need for movement and exercise for horses. Was on that original Yahoo group and boy those women were committed to helping all of us. Then the way you gave back was by jumping in and helping new members that joined.

Then got another IR horse and then she developed PPID so then there was that journey too. Now I can load all the my feed into an excel spreadsheet and really know what I’m feeding overall. Priceless really and you’ll notice a difference in your horse. In the quality of just about every aspect of their physical being.

It’s overwhelming to start but so good to learn all this. A good diet REALLY matters in horse health and you might be about to take that deep dive and you’ll be grateful later.

[MorganMaresVT]

Thanks @PaddockWood! She’s heavier than I’d like going into winter, as our riding starts to wind down for the season (we do the baby endurance distances). But this is the time of year to double down on being vigilant about managing what she’s eating.

Sorry for the tangent OP! Can’t wait to hear what you find out from your vet visit. As you can tell, if you do end up having to manage metabolic issues, there’s a large community of people dealing with the same issues and happy to support

[redandwhite]

Thanks for all the advice. It’s a little overwhelming but very reassuring at the same time.
I got the old farrier to talk to my new farrier and oh boy, there was some reasons they are being tight lipped. Apparently she foundered, they had her tested, everything was negative, and then they had her out in a paddock without grass.When the grass along the sides of the paddock grew, she ate it and foundered again, this time a lot worse. So apparently she’s foundered twice, not just one time, and with it happening with such a clear trigger as the grass it does sound metabolic in nature. My vet is coming on Monday, and I’ll let them know all of this.

I found a barn that has a lot of cushings horses and sort of specializes in it, and they’re in my price range, so I’m hoping to get more information and give it to them- they’d like to know if she needs limited hay, etc, and I dont know what Im doing until I hear back from the vet. But that’s definitely a possibility.

I’ll keep everyone updated. I can also take a few pictures of her feet- they’re very ugly and scary looking, to me. She’s got hoof pads and frog padding in there right now so I cant get a good shot of the bottom but I can take a few shots of what you can see for those interested.

Time to poor over all this information Im getting. Ive never ran into this. My family was always selling one horse for another as I went up the levels showing, and we didnt really do a lot of senior care therefore as we could afford one horse at a time. I dont feel like doing things that way now that I’m an adult myself and can make those decisions, so I am happy to have my old friend back and will see her until the end, and I hope that’s a little ways off.