Herd Bound in 3 Days?!?

[Chasing_Avery]

Short (comparatively speaking) background: I’m an adult amateur with aspirations in dressage. 12 year old mare, my first horse, purchased in early May. Previous owner had her on the same small backyard farm for 9 years. I have to board, and my trainer works in a VERY large professional barn- actually 5 barns, 4 rings, polo field- you get the picture. Mare seemed bombproof at trial rides to both myself and reputable trainer, but shortly after purchase some behavior issues crept up and I found myself the proud owner of a very intelligent, beautiful, well-trained, but fairly neurotic horse.

She was anxious almost constantly and had gone from solid trail horse to seemingly ring sour. She was not, to my mind, dangerous, but certainly difficult to work with because she is/was constantly on “high alert” and not focused on a handler or rider. I put her in a program with my trainer in addition to working with her myself, so I handled her daily and she was ridden 3x a week by me and 2x by trainer. No progress. She also clashed with my trainer, I believe because she is very sensitive and doesn’t respond well to all styles of discipline. This, combined with repeated (minor) injuries in pasture led me to move her to another, much smaller, barn a month ago.

She handled the transition quite well, and I noticed during her quarantine that she finally seemed really bonded to me. This, of course, was while she was in private turnout. She’s been great overall, new trainer has excellent rapport with her, and we’ve been doing pretty well too. I have always made an effort to be a consistent presence in her routine, so I visit her daily and ride 5x a week. I am not an absentee owner!

Well, last week I had my first fall (from her). Not her fault, someone left a gate open and it swung right into her path- it spooked me too. She walked right back over to where I fell immediately after she stopped running, and I got back on. I’m not seriously injured, but sore for sure.

The fall was Thursday, my trainer rode her Friday, I visited her (in the pasture) Saturday, brought her in and groomed her without doing any work on Sunday, and Monday some family issues reared up by surprise and I never made it to the barn.

Tuesday, I went at night to do some lunge work with her because I’m still a little too banged up to ride. She was a jerk coming in from the pasture, kept stopping (which I’ve seen before), but also tried to circle me (which I haven’t). Not respecting personal space. When I got her to the barn, she was pulling hard on the lead, freaked out on the cross-ties, screaming to the other horses in pasture, and it just didn’t stop. I could barely lead her to the arena. I’m familiar with backing them up when the walk on top of you, but I couldn’t get her to go back 95% of the time tonight. I’ve never shanked this girl with the lead, and she typically rebels with that style of approach. I didn’t feel like it was wise to lunge her when I couldn’t control her on a lead, so I tried walking her around the arena to settle her, and the calling to the horses didn’t stop, I could not get her attention, and I started to see movements in her that made me worry that it wasn’t safe me to be there alone with her like this. She didn’t kick or rear, but the body language and her anxiety level to me seemed to indicate that we could easily get to that point. I struggled to walk her back out to the field and had to leave her halter (breakaway) on because I couldn’t keep her still to remove it safely.

I wasn’t afraid when I fell, and I wasn’t afraid per se tonight, but definitely apprehensive. The calling to the other horses is not something I have ever seen from her before. This level of inattention and disrespect is also drastically worse than what we previously dealt with. So, can a horse get this deeply herd bound in only 3 days of no work? I already emailed my trainer, but hey, I have some cake in the fridge and this is really bothering me, so why not cry on your shoulders?

[rainechyldes]

I think you need some more background.
As in:
In those 9 years was she ever off the former owners property? To me is sounds like several things - one. a spoiled little pony you got there, who dont wanna do anything less she wants to. and is obviously getting progressively more snotty about it. Sensitive or not a horse needs to listen.

And possibly combined with a diva who has no ‘world’ experience. Out and about, sitting at shows, exposed to all types of the usual crap that most are.

Me, I 'd go a bit cowboy on her, put her in a round pen and make her move til she’s ready to acknowledge your existence. And take her back to that same round pen every time she goes off course - seems to me she’s gotten a feel for being taken out of her paddock/stall doesnt equate it’s time to work,

[Chasing_Avery]

She has experience with local shows, and a lot of clinics. I definitely agree with you that a 1200 lb animal needs to listen, regardless of sensitivity, merely meant that as far as my limited experience goes, she wants to please in general but if she’s not getting the answer right, she learns better and stays calmer if you try asking in a different way rather than getting heavy with the aids. Mostly the incessant calling to the herd and panic/refusal to focus on me were the disturbing and out of character parts. The rest of her quirks are manageable and good progress has been made until today.

[QUOTE=rainechyldes;8248668]
I think you need some more background.
As in:
In those 9 years was she ever off the former owners property? To me is sounds like several things - one. a spoiled little pony you got there, who dont wanna do anything less she wants to. and is obviously getting progressively more snotty about it. Sensitive or not a horse needs to listen.

And possibly combined with a diva who has no ‘world’ experience. Out and about, sitting at shows, exposed to all types of the usual crap that most are.

Me, I 'd go a bit cowboy on her, put her in a round pen and make her move til she’s ready to acknowledge your existence. And take her back to that same round pen every time she goes off course - seems to me she’s gotten a feel for being taken out of her paddock/stall doesnt equate it’s time to work,[/QUOTE]

[silverdog]

Agree with rainechyldes - she needs to realize the best deal she is going to get is to be quiet and respectful with both you and the trainer. The worst deal is when she is inattentive.
Believe you me, I feel your pain - while mine is not attached to any equine friends and is an angel 90% of the time at home, he can be a drama king at shows. He has been lame or in rehab for 2 yrs. Tried to go to a show 2 weeks ago. Had a drama attack and colicked. So, this weekend we are going back to baby horse mode. No over night stays and schooling and showing in the ring he is least likely to be stupid in. Working on positive experiences for him. He has some physical issues that have not been identified 100% but are related to noise - he has been manageable in the past - not so any more so I will just have to suck it up and work with him on them.
Good luck and be safe.

[SuzieQNutter]

If she is not listening to you in the halter the first thing I do is put a bridle on. This happened with my boy a couple of weeks ago when we bought a new horse home. New horse was a dream. Horse at home is normally quiet and sedate turned into a devil from the first neigh from the float by the new horse.

He started off galloping. Thank goodness I had put him in the paddock around the arena and he was not in where the float came in which is where he normally is.

By the time settled the new horse in and had worked him the old horse was in canter.

I put the new horse away and caught him and I could not hold him. I had to get put his bridle on and give him to hubby to hold.

I threw on the saddle and bridle. There was no way I could pick out his hooves.

I took him up to the arena, put the side reins straight up to 5 where I normally finish and I made him trot until he did not want to trot any more.

That took the sting out of him. I was able to lead him back to the house. Untack him, sponge and sweat scraper him and put his day rug on.

I said to hubby to grab his night rug and we would put it on now. He said he would walk him to the rug as normal. I said no he is standing quietly, bring it here.

He brought me the rug, we put it on. I took off the halter and he did a walk canter transition and continued in canter for the rest of the evening.

The next day he was down to trotting everywhere. We were able to control him and pick out his hooves and lunge and ride him.

The next day he was now in walk.

It took about a week for him to get back to normal.

[BilyandJack]

Yes. A horse can most definitely become herd bound in three days. Happened with my 2 when I brought them home. If you can switch her turn out buddies that seems to help a lot of horses. I’ve seen some horses that have to switch every 2-3 weeks.

[Posting_Trot]

It really doesn’t surprise me that she could become herd bound in just a few days. Nor does the neurotic behavior.

This is a horse who has had one owner and, probably, a very set routine for 9 years. Even though she went to clinics and shows, she always had the same rider and the same home base.

By buying her and moving her you’ve really shaken her up, and she’s still trying (probably) to figure out what the hell is going on.

In my experience with my own mare, it took quite some time before she actually trusted me, especially in new situations like shows or clinics. This despite the fact that she’d been all over the place with a previous owner. (Admittedly though, she was green, and in fact greener than she had been represented to me in many ways).

I would say, be consistent with her. Insist that she listen to you, but (and this is important), take all of the negative emotions out of your interactions with her. She’s not doing this to frustrate you or to make you unhappy; frankly I doubt that she’s spoiled (although obviously this opinion is just going on what you’ve written here). She just needs you to be completely 100% the same every day, and just ask her to work and be as consistent herself.

If you have a round-pen available to you, that would be a good option rather than lunging. If you’ve never round-penned a horse, it’s a really good way to get the horse to show respect and to focus. You can look at John Lyon’s book, Lyons on Horses (I think is the title), and he discusses round-penning.

Good luck.

[nu2u]

Yep, she is still trying to figure out what is going on give her more time to settle into her new world before doing anything…as in at least a week or 2.

[merrygoround]

And where is she is her cycle. Mares have these times occasionally.

[quietann]

OP I feel your pain … was in exactly the same situation when I bought my mare in 2008. Think slightly timid adult ammy, first horse who might have been just a bit much for the rider.

(Interrupting this to say YES consider where she is in her cycle. My mare, while exceptionally well-behaved, does get a little herdbound when she is in heat, even though she’s out 24/7 in her own dry lot.)

She came out of the pasture where she’d spent most of her life, and the first couple of months were rough to the point where I nearly put her up for sale. She adjusted fairly well to living in a stall part-time (and in fact came to like it, especially at feeding time, as she is VERY protective of her food.) But she became more or less instantly herdbound. And I can’t really blame her; I’d turned her world upside down. Everything was different, and this is a horse who still can get upset at changes as small as the tractor being parked in a different place.

Like you, I enlisted the services of a pro, which eventually did help. The herdboundness I dealt with very gradually, pushing her just a tiny bit past her comfort level so she’d get a little stressed, turning around and going back home. I actually did most of this on my own but called on the trainer a couple of times for coaching when things got rough.

She rarely exhibits signs of herdboundness now, but it is part of who she is. Were she in a herd of wild horses, she would probably not be the head mare, but the one keeping track of where all the herd members were and Watching For Bears. There’s a photo of her in her herd before I bought her; the other horses are all stretched out flat asleep, and she is the one who is laying down but has her head up and her ears pricked. That is her “job” and she’s not happy when she can’t do it. (She’s become protective of me which has helped a lot.)

BUT … it’s still there. And herdboundness can set in in a few hours, never mind a few days! I took the mare to a 3-day show last year; we spent two nights at the venue. Show attendance was light so she could see other horses but none were close to her. The first night was fine. The second night, someone showed up with their mare for Day 3 of the show, and she was two stalls away from my mare. They spent a lot of time looking at each other. The next morning when the owners of the other mare took her out of her stall and led her off to be hitched, my mare Lost. Her. Brains. She was circling her stall, whinnying constantly, head up, even ignoring her favorite treats. Eventually we got her calmed down by bringing her out to hand-graze, but it was not easy. We did leave the show a bit early because of how stressed she was; we were not showing that day anyway.

Actually, she became instantly herdbound to a former trailer buddy whenever we went to a show. She wasn’t that attached to the other mare at home, in fact the other mare was very herdbound to her, but when we took them to a show, they reversed roles.

The thing to monitor – and a good trainer who “speaks horse” can really help here – is whether your mare is just having a rough spot and is actually going to be a good match for you, or whether she really is that difficult. The trainer I worked with thought we were a great match; she recognized the mare’s essential good nature, and it took a while, but we brought it out in a way that is very rewarding.

[Chocoholic]

Yes, herd bound behavior can develop very quickly. And I agree with merrygoround, some mares act extremely herd bound when it season, but aren’t particularly herd bound at other times.

[OverandOnward]

They can be herd bound immediately when things about their circumstances change.

It isn’t a character flaw. It’s a natural behavior that springs from insecurity.

You have to see the horse’s circumstances through the horse’s eyes. They are a prey animal, the world is trying to eat them. It is safer with the herd. When they are familiar with their surroundings and routine they are more confident. Something changes - the change could eat them.

Could you edit your original post and put in paragraphs? With the “enter” key.

[DJohn]

I feel your pain OP!

My horse get’s very herd bound every summer when they go on pasture. He whinnies and looks back, it’s very annoying. If he does that stuff, I take him straight to the arena. No grooming, no food, nothing until we have sorted out “the situation”. I generally grab a dressage whip and work on moving his hips away from me, sidepassing, turn on haunches (all of this in-hand, of course), backing, halting etc. After a few minutes of that he is calm as a lamb. I can then tie him up and brush him/ride him.

It isn’t about kicking their butts in this situation, because you are then telling them that yes, being out with your friends is way more fun! In the same time, you can’t be a pushover. If you say “BACK UP” and she doesn’t reverse, she might need a chain lead shank to the nose (just one until she even remotely steps back). Same goes for her moving away from you when you walk towards her hip. She had better swing that hip or she’s going to get a tap with the dressage whip. Simple.

Check out Warwick Schiller. He’s got some free videos regarding herd-bound horses. He knows his body language and he’s not all about whipping and spurring.

[Laurierace]

Too hard to read with no paragraphs but I have had horses act herd bound after trailering together for a short time. My old guy fell in love/became herd bound overnight at Pony Club camp. He could touch noses over the fence and didn’t want to let his new friend out of his sight the next day.

[Onetrickpuppy]

[QUOTE=Chasing Avery;8248678]
She has experience with local shows, and a lot of clinics. I definitely agree with you that a 1200 lb animal needs to listen, regardless of sensitivity, merely meant that as far as my limited experience goes, she wants to please in general but if she’s not getting the answer right, she learns better and stays calmer if you try asking in a different way rather than getting heavy with the aids. Mostly the incessant calling to the herd and panic/refusal to focus on me were the disturbing and out of character parts. The rest of her quirks are manageable and good progress has been made until today.[/QUOTE]

Not focusing on where you are and disrespecting your space, is dangerous IMO. I recently leased a mare for breeding purposes and it was clear she had been the boss for awhile. I put a stud chain over her nose and when she started pulling me around, crowding me, and circling (yes, she too, was very herd bound), I yanked her head off and yelled “NO!” It only took twice for the point to get across. For awhile, I would put the chain over her nose and tie the lead rope around her neck so if she even thought about acting silly, I would remind her by applying light pressure on the chain. After another few weeks or so, I was able to eliminate the chain altogether. Another exercise I do with my horses is the “walking game.” I lead them around, varying the speed of my walk, and teaching them to keep an eye on me. If I walk fast, they walk fast. If I walk slow, they walk slow. This forces them to keep an eye on you instead of their buddies. And I praise the heck out of them when they do well. I teach this stuff because my reflexes aren’t what they used to be, and if it comes down to one of us getting hurt over the horse’s lack of manners, it’s going to be the horse. Having a sore nose for a few days isn’t going to kill them.

[OverandOnward]

I think sometimes we take our very socialized horses for granted and forget that good stable manners are the opposite of their natural reactive, impulsive behavior. Even the tamest and best can slip in certain circumstances - new surroundings; new horses/other animals; haven’t been worked in some time; etc.

[myhorsefaith]

yup, it can happen. I 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th the comments about mares in heat being more herdbound. Just this week my super quiet mare turned into a herd-bound monster. She got a new turnout buddy, another mare. Her last couple of buddies she did not blink an eye over. This one, however, was a long lost friend I suppose, LOL. I went in to take my mare, who was super calm, & chill walking away to the barn…until her buddy started freaking out. then the two of them worked each other up. My mare spent the next 20 minutes calling for her new BFF, spinning around in her stall, but then settled and was perfectly fine when put to work. The next day, they were brought in together, my mare deposited in her stall first - the bay mare walked away with her handler to her barn and there was zero fuss…until we went into the arena and the bay mare heard mine and called out- so then my mare responded … but nothing more and again she was very quiet under saddle.

I suspect that it was a combination of new friend + being in heat - as I have seen some milder behaviors in my mare in the spring. But for whatever reason, this time it was much more intense.

[Chasing_Avery]

Paragraphs have been sheepishly added to post! So she is definitely in heat, and although I’ve had her for several cycles this one has just been way, way worse for some reason. She was already better the next evening, although not back to normal. The barn manager says all 4 mares that she’s turned out with are all in heat, and have all been way more psycho than usual this time. They appear to be feeding off of each others’ crazy energy. We’re rotating pasture buddies, and I’m considering Regumate for my girl. Looking forward to fall!!!

[TWH_Girl]

I’d give her more time to settle into the new place. A month really is not that long. What’s her diet?

It took my gelding about 45-60 days to start to relax, and then I had to move him this past weekend due to some safety issues at old barn. My two are now together (alone right now) and call for each other. They were not pastured together previously and now they are…the calling will stop. I just ignore it.

I think patience is the key, along with perhaps trying magnesium or something. New diet could have her thrown off a bit too, along with new owner, trainer, barn, etc. I think we underestimate how hard change can be on horses. I did not get a chance to read all replies, but you could check for ulcers as well due to all the stressors this horse has.