"High Kill Shelters"

[Sansena]

I’m on the periphery of a breed rescue population. I say population because one rescue is out of LI/ NY, another out of Cicero NY, another out of GA, and yet another out of TX.

We/ they routinely take in dogs who are HW+, cherry eye/ requiring surgery, and even one with double ACL tears who requires a wagon to go for ‘walks’ and is in hydrotherapy & acupuncture regularly. These all are dogs who were pulled from ‘kill shelters’ because they were deemed undesirable and unadoptable. So, Shermy, your theory that ‘no kill’ rescues cherry pick their animals is false right there. And yes, each of these dogs has been adopted to a suitable home.

These 4 chapters of this breed rescue network are constantly perusing FB/ Craigslist, etc. trying to find animals at risk. They have a FB page ‘Death Row Dogs’ where they specifically look for otherwise undesirable animals. These animals were pulled from kill ‘shelters’ in concrete runs and put into foster care in people’s homes, or boarded at the breed rescue’s trainer’s facility. Yes, they/ we count on networking foster homes nationwide, and many people end up with multiple fosters simultaneously in their home.

But to automatically assume that each animal taken in by a ‘no kill’ organization languishes in some never-ending hell of concrete kennel nightmare is ignorant at best. These animals are monitored and moved if a foster home ultimately isn’t suitable. And yes, they may go back into boarding until another foster home opens up. But to imply they suffer the fate Shermy thinks is just simply misinformed.

To suggest breed rescues only take healthy, well adjusted animals is also highly ignorant bordering on prejudiced. ‘My’ breed is the Chow. People who are unfamiliar with this breed --how it REALLY is-- are going to say they’re all aggressive and unadoptable. Because of the stigma, and they’re not your typical “Ooooo, cMERE BOY!!!” type of dog. Chow breed rescues go out of their way to evaluate each individual for temperament and adopt out to a very specific type of home, to owners with a very specific type of personality. Many dogs come in labelled as behaviourally broken or with a poor temperament. When in fact, it’s a lack of education, fighting stigma, and incorrect handling that makes them ‘unsuitable’, and find their fates in the kill shelters. The kill shelter staff, the majority of them, aren’t interested in the possibility that the handling is the problem and kill our breed, or mixes of our breed prematurely, simply because they’re refusing to accept the fact that the chow does not react like a labrador.

Sorry. Side tracked. But education is the key and like everything, blanket statements and black and white thinking is most definitely NOT doing the animals in question any favors.

[Angela_Freda]

The local to me high profile No Kill shelter is so sad… they refuse to adopt out dogs to be kept outside [not that I agree with keeping dogs outside 24/7 myself] while they house their dogs outside in chainlink runs.
Hello, hypocrisy?
Then there was the whole fiasco of handing me a dog to ‘meet’ and then handing my then 6 year old son another dog to meet, denying the dog who clearly had a cataract on one eye had sight limitations, and leaving us to manage these two dogs who did not know one another while also handing us treats… you can imagine how that ended.
They routinely ship dogs from Puerto Rico… while the other local shelters/Humane Societies and others have to euth because of the sheer volume they are asked to take.

Thank you to those who get what I was trying to say, and said it far more clearly.

And to those who think that anyone is saying EVERY or ALL… is missing the point. Your personal shelter that you work with might do a better job, but to deny that there are those who DO cherry pick, who DO keep dogs kenneled 23/7 until… , who DO pass the buck and then point a judgemental finger is to be selectively obtuse.

[Coyoteco]

[QUOTE=Angela Freda;7700315]
The local to me high profile No Kill shelter is so sad… they refuse to adopt out dogs to be kept outside [not that I agree with keeping dogs outside 24/7 myself] while they house their dogs outside in chainlink runs.
Hello, hypocrisy?
Then there was the whole fiasco of handing me a dog to ‘meet’ and then handing my then 6 year old son another dog to meet, denying the dog who clearly had a cataract on one eye had sight limitations, and leaving us to manage these two dogs who did not know one another while also handing us treats… you can imagine how that ended.
They routinely ship dogs from Puerto Rico… while the other local shelters/Humane Societies and others have to euth because of the sheer volume they are asked to take.

Thank you to those who get what I was trying to say, and said it far more clearly.

And to those who think that anyone is saying EVERY or ALL… is missing the point. Your personal shelter that you work with might do a better job, but to deny that there are those who DO cherry pick, who DO keep dogs kenneled 23/7 until… , who DO pass the buck and then point a judgemental finger is to be selectively obtuse.[/QUOTE]

Obtuse? lol

Nobody is saying that there are no bad no kill shelters. Nobody is saying that there aren’t some kill facilities misrepresenting themselves as no kill shelters.

What I am saying is that when kill facilities try to misrepresent the no-kill industry and no-kill movement, it is a disservice to all animals. The standard and the norm for no-kill shelters is much different that people in this thread say that it is. There is nothing “obtuse” in bringing that negative campaign of making those inaccurate and harmful accusations to light. The no-kill movement was intentionally harmed by the campaign to mischaracterize it. Animals died because of it.

[Coyoteco]

[QUOTE=Sansena;7700134]
I’m on the periphery of a breed rescue population. I say population because one rescue is out of LI/ NY, another out of Cicero NY, another out of GA, and yet another out of TX.

We/ they routinely take in dogs who are HW+, cherry eye/ requiring surgery, and even one with double ACL tears who requires a wagon to go for ‘walks’ and is in hydrotherapy & acupuncture regularly. These all are dogs who were pulled from ‘kill shelters’ because they were deemed undesirable and unadoptable. So, Shermy, your theory that ‘no kill’ rescues cherry pick their animals is false right there. And yes, each of these dogs has been adopted to a suitable home.

These 4 chapters of this breed rescue network are constantly perusing FB/ Craigslist, etc. trying to find animals at risk. They have a FB page ‘Death Row Dogs’ where they specifically look for otherwise undesirable animals. These animals were pulled from kill ‘shelters’ in concrete runs and put into foster care in people’s homes, or boarded at the breed rescue’s trainer’s facility. Yes, they/ we count on networking foster homes nationwide, and many people end up with multiple fosters simultaneously in their home.

But to automatically assume that each animal taken in by a ‘no kill’ organization languishes in some never-ending hell of concrete kennel nightmare is ignorant at best. These animals are monitored and moved if a foster home ultimately isn’t suitable. And yes, they may go back into boarding until another foster home opens up. But to imply they suffer the fate Shermy thinks is just simply misinformed.

To suggest breed rescues only take healthy, well adjusted animals is also highly ignorant bordering on prejudiced. ‘My’ breed is the Chow. People who are unfamiliar with this breed --how it REALLY is-- are going to say they’re all aggressive and unadoptable. Because of the stigma, and they’re not your typical “Ooooo, cMERE BOY!!!” type of dog. Chow breed rescues go out of their way to evaluate each individual for temperament and adopt out to a very specific type of home, to owners with a very specific type of personality. Many dogs come in labelled as behaviourally broken or with a poor temperament. When in fact, it’s a lack of education, fighting stigma, and incorrect handling that makes them ‘unsuitable’, and find their fates in the kill shelters. The kill shelter staff, the majority of them, aren’t interested in the possibility that the handling is the problem and kill our breed, or mixes of our breed prematurely, simply because they’re refusing to accept the fact that the chow does not react like a labrador.

Sorry. Side tracked. But education is the key and like everything, blanket statements and black and white thinking is most definitely NOT doing the animals in question any favors.[/QUOTE]

One of the dogs I took from the kill facility was an older half Chow. I don’t know what his other half is. I’ve known several Chow - labs and they have been great dogs. My guy was deemed very aggressive, though he never growled, never attempted to bite, never threatened in any way other that looking at them like he hated them. In fact, in his life, as I do know his history, he has never done anything aggressive. I suppose he did hate the pound people, but not without reason. He likes us and we like him.

[Larissa]

[QUOTE=wrybosome;7699190]
At my local SPCA there is no euthanasia once they’ve been deemed adoptable, ie they don’t have a ticking clock. This is great, mostly.[/QUOTE]

Just a side note on this issue… IME this is not a sunshine-and-roses scenario. My local Animal Control/shelter has this policy as well. And you would be astounded at their euthanasia rates - YTD through April of this year it was a full 51% (67% last year).

Someone is going to try to convince me that 50% of the animals walking through their doors were too old, infirm or unadoptable to be given a shot on the adoption floor? Perhaps it’s not all about public perception but it seems that way to me… tout the “no kill” policy on the adoptables but make the adoptable-threshold that much harder to achieve.

[Angela_Freda]

[QUOTE=Coyoteco;7700363]
Obtuse? lol

Nobody is saying that there are no bad no kill shelters. Nobody is saying that there aren’t some kill facilities misrepresenting themselves as no kill shelters.

What I am saying is that when kill facilities try to misrepresent the no-kill industry and no-kill movement, it is a disservice to all animals. The standard and the norm for no-kill shelters is much different that people in this thread say that it is. There is nothing “obtuse” in bringing that negative campaign of making those inaccurate and harmful accusations to light. The no-kill movement was intentionally harmed by the campaign to mischaracterize it. Animals died because of it.[/QUOTE]

The reverse is also true… when no-kill facilities try to misrepresent the kill industry, in part by using that very term, it is a disservice to all animals.

[LauraKY]

[QUOTE=Coyoteco;7700363]
Obtuse? lol

Nobody is saying that there are no bad no kill shelters. Nobody is saying that there aren’t some kill facilities misrepresenting themselves as no kill shelters.

What I am saying is that when kill facilities try to misrepresent the no-kill industry and no-kill movement, it is a disservice to all animals. The standard and the norm for no-kill shelters is much different that people in this thread say that it is. There is nothing “obtuse” in bringing that negative campaign of making those inaccurate and harmful accusations to light. The no-kill movement was intentionally harmed by the campaign to mischaracterize it. Animals died because of it.[/QUOTE]

What do you call what Nathan Winograd and his No Kill Coalition does? They absolutely have a negative campaign against those shelters that are forced to euth for space. They should be working together instead of one demonizing the other. Neuter/spay is the answer…and I don’t see no kill focusing on that piece of the puzzle.

Personally, I’d rather see an animal put down than warehoused in a shelter for the rest of its life. What kind of life is that…it’s like prison?

I’m talking about a standard shelter, not a foster situation.

[BLBGP]

@Coyoteco;7699847

It’s not no kills turning animals over to kills. It is kills turning them over to no-kills and that is the way of the future - and in many places the present.

Except that many (most? all?) of them do turn pets over to “kill” shelters simply by not accepting them in the first place. Look at that video. How many referred people to animal control shelters because the limited admission shelter was full and had long wait lists?

I’m not saying that’s a bad thing. It works really well if the community works together with a solid coalition of shelters and rescue groups. But be transparent about it and work together instead of bashing. Don’t close your doors and send animals there then say they can’t call themselves a shelter because they euthanize or blast them on social media because they didn’t have the resources to save one dog you personally had the time to take on. And be transparent about the whole 90% business.

[Casey09]

Our AC was at one time extremely high kill/ low adoption. For a while a volunteer (not with the shelter - just on her own) would go photograph the dogs and post them on a website in hopes of increasing adoptions. Eventually there was a disagreement about something, and she was no longer allowed to do that.
A few years ago the actual shelter was turned over to another group. There are still problems due to the age of the facility and the number of a animals going in, but the euthanasia rate has been drastically reduced. The shelter still does not and cannot turn animals away. It has several satellite locations/adoption centers now. It used a lot of volunteers and foster homes (before, volunteers and foster homes weren’t even allowed). There is a high percentage of pit bulls. While there are issues that crop up occasionally, the shelter does employ professionals to temperament test dogs and match them with adopters. The shelter places outdoor dogs and barn cats. There is also another shelter nearby that is open admission as well and no kill.
I guess the question to me is not about euthanasia rates, but rather about what a community and shelter are doing to get animals adopted. Are there photos? Adoption events? Foster homes? Etc. What type of marketing is actually being done? What kind of effort is being made?

[Coyoteco]

[QUOTE=LauraKY;7700398]
What do you call what Nathan Winograd and his No Kill Coalition does? They absolutely have a negative campaign against those shelters that are forced to euth for space. They should be working together instead of one demonizing the other. Neuter/spay is the answer…and I don’t see no kill focusing on that piece of the puzzle.

Personally, I’d rather see an animal put down than warehoused in a shelter for the rest of its life. What kind of life is that…it’s like prison?

I’m talking about a standard shelter, not a foster situation.[/QUOTE]

I didn’t know that was the Nathan Wingrad that was mentioned here. I can see why some don’t, but I love the No Kill Coalition. Even on fb, I disagree with some of the administrators of the site and, and as a result, I know that there are differing opinions at or near the top of that organization. I know the philosophies with which I agree, but don’t know which administrator has those view - so I don’t know what Wingrad, personally, says or thinks.

You have to first know that most governments are very oriented to the kill side of things and have been slow to move past that idea. That placed no-kill at a serious disadvantage. Then other groups exploited that advantage and seriously went after no-kill shelters.

There had to be something to turn the tide of negative impressions of the no kill shelters - a negative impression that was intentional manufactured and cultivated by some government and kill groups. I think No Kill Coalition has done that and I applaud them for that. I love their fab page. I love their caustic poem about kill facilities and no-kill shelters as I have experienced what that poem is specifically talking about. The poet uses venom for ink, and I can see how some could disapprove of it. Just being honest here, but I can’t help but love that poem:). (I think it’s called “Shelter Pets Don’t Have to Die”.) So, yes I support the No Kill Coalition and personally like their direct style. I disagree on some points, but fundamentally agree with them on most things.

I don’t know of one single no-kill shelter that is not only pro spay neuter, but most actually were pioneers in that fight - actually were there at the outset promoting spay and neuter well before the kill industry started addressing it. There is no denying that the kill facilities have learned a LOT from the no kills in my area of the country. To their credit, the kill facilities have adopted many of the improvements in animal care and housing that the no-kills implemented.

You haven’t seen the no-kill shelters that I have seen. They are good places for dogs. Dogs enjoying people and dogs enjoying other dogs. Cats, too, being housed in colonies in open rooms. My experience is that kill facilities have cages and that no kills have pens and openness.

Nobody is talking about warehousing dogs and cats. No kills are talking about animals having TIME to be evaluated, TIME to find the right match, TIME to learn what they need to learn without some person who is stressed and resigned to the idea that most dogs and cats are too unsociable to find homes. TIME to be advertised. There are great marketing ideas out there from Aspen (take a dog for a camping weekend) to Australia (take a dog for lunch - which resulted in literally thousands of adoptions).

People don’t mind “defective” cats and dogs. They just want to be confident that they know what the defect is to see if it is one that is an issue for them.

You can’t separate out the no-kills from the breed rescues from the fosters from the adoptive homes - it is a system and it provides a network that some kill facilities are participating in.

There is no reason for a no-kill shelter to be like a prison, and I know of none that are.

Laura, the answer is to work together. The No Kill Coalition has reset the footing so that it is more equal.

So that’s my take on it.

[HPFarmette]

[QUOTE=IdahoRider;7699492]
Well, for those of us who work or have worked in a so-called “kill shelter”, language is everything. Although I did see and hear some of the more pushy volunteers use the “kill” language at the shelter I worked at, for the most part we all used the term “open admission” to signify that we took in any animal that walked through the front door.

We called “no-kill” shelters “limited admission” because they very often had strict criteria to accepting an animal: they needed to have the room already available, they took in young or highly adoptable animals and tended to turn away animals that had health or behavioral issues or would otherwise be harder to place. They limit what the take in, so calling them limited admission seems to be more indicative of what they do.

So open admission and limited admission are terms that I am most comfortable with.
Sheilah[/QUOTE]

I worked in a shelter for 14 years. You’ve got it right.

[LauraKY]

[QUOTE=Coyoteco;7700498]

Laura, the answer is to work together. The No Kill Coalition has reset the footing so that it is more equal.

So that’s my take on it.[/QUOTE]

Absolutely. I hope you are right about No Kill. We do need to work together. I work with breed rescue for the most part. I strongly feel, with a full breed dog, it’s the best way to get them placed in a home that is looking for a dog with a particular temperament…and it opens up spots in shelter for other dogs.

Off all the breeds I’ve worked with, the one breed I’ve only seen once stands out…the Old English Sheepdog. OES rescue drove 200 miles to pick up that dog the day after I alerted them.

[Marshfield]

[QUOTE=Sansena;7700134]
I’m on the periphery of a breed rescue population. I say population because one rescue is out of LI/ NY, another out of Cicero NY, another out of GA, and yet another out of TX.

We/ they routinely take in dogs who are HW+, cherry eye/ requiring surgery, and even one with double ACL tears who requires a wagon to go for ‘walks’ and is in hydrotherapy & acupuncture regularly. These all are dogs who were pulled from ‘kill shelters’ because they were deemed undesirable and unadoptable. So, Shermy, your theory that ‘no kill’ rescues cherry pick their animals is false right there. And yes, each of these dogs has been adopted to a suitable home.

These 4 chapters of this breed rescue network are constantly perusing FB/ Craigslist, etc. trying to find animals at risk. They have a FB page ‘Death Row Dogs’ where they specifically look for otherwise undesirable animals. These animals were pulled from kill ‘shelters’ in concrete runs and put into foster care in people’s homes, or boarded at the breed rescue’s trainer’s facility. Yes, they/ we count on networking foster homes nationwide, and many people end up with multiple fosters simultaneously in their home.

But to automatically assume that each animal taken in by a ‘no kill’ organization languishes in some never-ending hell of concrete kennel nightmare is ignorant at best. These animals are monitored and moved if a foster home ultimately isn’t suitable. And yes, they may go back into boarding until another foster home opens up. But to imply they suffer the fate Shermy thinks is just simply misinformed.

To suggest breed rescues only take healthy, well adjusted animals is also highly ignorant bordering on prejudiced. ‘My’ breed is the Chow. People who are unfamiliar with this breed --how it REALLY is-- are going to say they’re all aggressive and unadoptable. Because of the stigma, and they’re not your typical “Ooooo, cMERE BOY!!!” type of dog. Chow breed rescues go out of their way to evaluate each individual for temperament and adopt out to a very specific type of home, to owners with a very specific type of personality. Many dogs come in labelled as behaviourally broken or with a poor temperament. When in fact, it’s a lack of education, fighting stigma, and incorrect handling that makes them ‘unsuitable’, and find their fates in the kill shelters. The kill shelter staff, the majority of them, aren’t interested in the possibility that the handling is the problem and kill our breed, or mixes of our breed prematurely, simply because they’re refusing to accept the fact that the chow does not react like a labrador.

Sorry. Side tracked. But education is the key and like everything, blanket statements and black and white thinking is most definitely NOT doing the animals in question any favors.[/QUOTE]

I have a 13 year old corgi slated to arrive at my place tomorrow (no, not one of my own breedings) that Mayflower is taking in to rescue. She will be getting a dental, updated vaccines, and all the care she needs. Headed in to foster care with my mother for some adjustment time before going to a new family at the end of the month. Mayflower’s standard is to treat the rescues as we treat our own pets. I can’t call taking in a 13 year old cherry picking. They’ve taken a lot of senior pets over the past couple of years. And while this is an owner surrender, there are enough gasp breeders across the country as well as aficionados of the breed that these guys typically get pulled from the shelters and put in to rescue if they’re not adopted before we can get to them

[Coyoteco]

[QUOTE=LauraKY;7700806]
Absolutely. I hope you are right about No Kill. We do need to work together. I work with breed rescue for the most part. I strongly feel, with a full breed dog, it’s the best way to get them placed in a home that is looking for a dog with a particular temperament…and it opens up spots in shelter for other dogs.

Off all the breeds I’ve worked with, the one breed I’ve only seen once stands out…the Old English Sheepdog. OES rescue drove 200 miles to pick up that dog the day after I alerted them.[/QUOTE]

There has been progress and there can be more.

I did come back to say that I looked into Nathan Winograd and I have to say that I like him very much. He seems to have seen a lot of the same things I have seen and has had similar experiences, observations and ideas. I suppose he wrote the poem I mentioned above. I could have missed something, but probably not. I won’t go into my observations as it is of no value to this thread…

[Coyoteco]

[QUOTE=LauraKY;7699820]
…is a proponent of dumping cats as ferals. Not TNR, just a dump and run. …[/QUOTE]

I haven’t seen this anywhere and doesn’t seem consistent with what I’ve read about him. If it’s handy can you tell me where you saw this? If not, I’ll look for it. Thanks.

ETA: I looked and found this on his website: “All across the United States, feral cat groups, rescue groups, and No Kill shelters are spaying and neutering animals, with the ultimate goal of reducing shelter intakes and killing. In fact, high-volume, low-cost spay/neuter is a core program of the No Kill Equation. Spay/neuter leads to fewer animals entering the shelter system, allowing more resources to be allocated toward saving lives. Other than leaving them alone, no-cost neutering for feral cats through a program of Trap-Neuter-Release (TNR) is the key to keeping them out of shelters and reducing their numbers humanely.”

[Angela_Freda]

[QUOTE=Coyoteco;7701650]
I haven’t seen this anywhere and doesn’t seem consistent with what I’ve read about him. If it’s handy can you tell me where you saw this? If not, I’ll look for it. Thanks.

ETA: I looked and found this on his website: “All across the United States, feral cat groups, rescue groups, and No Kill shelters are spaying and neutering animals, with the ultimate goal of reducing shelter intakes and killing. In fact, high-volume, low-cost spay/neuter is a core program of the No Kill Equation. Spay/neuter leads to fewer animals entering the shelter system, allowing more resources to be allocated toward saving lives. Other than leaving them alone, no-cost neutering for feral cats through a program of Trap-Neuter-Release (TNR) is the key to keeping them out of shelters and reducing their numbers humanely.”[/QUOTE]

LOL ‘Kill Shelters’ spay/neuter too, so what’s the point of the above?

[LauraKY]

Here’s an interesting article about Nathan Winograd.

http://www.examiner.com/article/the-curious-case-of-nathan-winograd-1

[Alagirl]

[QUOTE=LauraKY;7702159]
Here’s an interesting article about Nathan Winograd.

http://www.examiner.com/article/the-curious-case-of-nathan-winograd-1[/QUOTE]

‘Poor PETA’?

[Coyoteco]

[QUOTE=Angela Freda;7702035]
LOL ‘Kill Shelters’ spay/neuter too, so what’s the point of the above?[/QUOTE]

Look at my post you are quoting. I was talking with LauraKY specifically in response to her post. Generally, she asked me what I thought about Nathan Winograd…that’s the discussion reflected in my post that you quoted and seemingly misunderstood. Your quote and comment indicates that you didn’t read the conversation or perhaps even the entire post that you quoted in your post.

“The point of the above” is whether Nathan Winograd belives in TNR or whether he thinks feral cats should be left unaltered and returned to their feral state. I listed the quote as my foundation for thinking that he believes in TNR. Laura read or heard something else that lead her to believe differently and I’m willing to read that if I, or she, runs across it again. I recognize that she may not remember where she saw that, and more than likely doesn’t have the time or inclination to look around for it - I wouldn’t if I were her. I’ll keep what she said in mind, as I always do with LauraKY’s, posts and keep an eye open for information that indicates that he doesn’t support TNR. That’s “the point of the above”.

And since I’m responding to this post, I’ll just say that kill facilities do not Trap Neuter and RELEASE. Not any kill facilities that I’m aware of anyway.

[Coyoteco]

[QUOTE=LauraKY;7702159]
Here’s an interesting article about Nathan Winograd.

http://www.examiner.com/article/the-curious-case-of-nathan-winograd-1[/QUOTE]

I’ll definitely read it. Thanks for the link. It may be late this evening before I do, though.