"High Kill Shelters"

[BLBGP]

Other interesting reads on Winograd:

http://www.animals24-7.org/2014/07/31/nathan-winograd-in-perspective/

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/society/animal-rights/no-kill-equation-truth-revealed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8P79Vgvo6b8

The drop from 23 million pets killed in 1970 to 3 million today should be celebrated - it’s not where we should stop, but it shows that it’s not the recent ‘no kill’ movement alone that caused it. A lot of good work was done by the very leaders the Winograds of the world disparage.

Also, I don’t see how you can say “we should work together” then celebrate incredibly divisive language and highly inflammatory leadership that prohibits working together. And be honest that “no kill” suddenly now means 90%, not 100%.

Communities need to work together, not against each other.

[LauraKY]

@Coyoteco;7702363

“The point of the above” is whether Nathan Winograd belives in TNR or whether he thinks feral cats should be left unaltered and returned to their feral state. I listed the quote as my foundation for thinking that he believes in TNR. Laura read or heard something else that lead her to believe differently and I’m willing to read that if I, or she, runs across it again. I recognize that she may not remember where she saw that, and more than likely doesn’t have the time or inclination to look around for it - I wouldn’t if I were her. I’ll keep what she said in mind, as I always do with LauraKY’s, posts and keep an eye open for information that indicates that he doesn’t support TNR. That’s “the point of the above”.

I’m looking for it, but either I wasn’t clear or you misunderstood. I didn’t mean to imply that he is a proponent of releasing cats that have not been neutered/spayed. However, he is a proponent of releasing, into the wild, cats that end up in a shelter. That’s not TNR. TNR is the trapping, neutering and release of cats back to the location where they were originally trapped.

In addition, he seems to have no problem with releasing FIV positive cats back out as ferals.

[BLBGP]

[QUOTE=Coyoteco;7702363]

And since I’m responding to this post, I’ll just say that kill facilities do not Trap Neuter and RELEASE. Not any kill facilities that I’m aware of anyway.[/QUOTE]

Lots of them do. I won’t throw any of them under your bus, but google big open admission SPCAs and Humane Societies and you’ll find it. They also have foster programs, work with rescues, hold proactive adoption events, have volunteer programs, have low cost s/n programs, community outreach, behavior training, and all the other things the equation calls for, and they still don’t have enough homes for all. The biggest difference is they are open admission shelters who don’t limit the quantity or quality of animals coming through their doors.

[BLBGP]

[QUOTE=LauraKY;7702383]
I’m looking for it, but either I wasn’t clear or you misunderstood. I didn’t mean to imply that he is a proponent of releasing cats that have not been neutered/spayed. However, he is a proponent of releasing, into the wild, cats that end up in a shelter. That’s not TNR. TNR is the trapping, neutering and release of cats back to the location where they were originally trapped.

In addition, he seems to have no problem with releasing FIV positive cats back out as ferals.[/QUOTE]

Sadly, this isn’t just him. There is a growing “community cat” movement where shelters improve their stats by not accepting or picking up cats at all.

[IdahoRider]

@LauraKY;7700806

Absolutely. I hope you are right about No Kill. We do need to work together. I work with breed rescue for the most part. I strongly feel, with a full breed dog, it’s the best way to get them placed in a home that is looking for a dog with a particular temperament…and it opens up spots in shelter for other dogs.

Except in some areas certain breeds are over-represented. I know that regionally, Lab rescue can’t keep up with the need and you can walk into any shelter in this area and find purebred Labs available.

Check out any of the large shelters in Southern California and you’ll see purebred after purebred. They are in shelters because breed rescues can only take in so many animals and the supply of purebreds will often far exceed what the breed rescue can absorb.

The less represented a breed is in shelters, the more likely the breed rescue is to take them. I had IG rescue climb down my throat once because a woman had been dealing with them and they couldn’t arrange transport to pick her little Iggy up for another day or two. Owner didn’t want to wait and she surrendered him to my shelter. I had him in a foster home within an hour.

Breed rescue called the next day and demanded that I surrender the dog to their representative, who was now in town and able to transport the dog. They wanted the dog so badly that they forced the surrendering owner to come back in and adopt the dog, only to hand him over to the breed rescue representative out in the parking lot.

In that same time frame, I had Border Collie rescue in tears because they didn’t have the ability to take in any more dogs. And the Lab folks were always so full they were never able to take one of our Labs.
Sheilah

[BLBGP]

[QUOTE=LauraKY;7702383]
I’m looking for it, but either I wasn’t clear or you misunderstood. I didn’t mean to imply that he is a proponent of releasing cats that have not been neutered/spayed. However, he is a proponent of releasing, into the wild, cats that end up in a shelter. That’s not TNR. TNR is the trapping, neutering and release of cats back to the location where they were originally trapped.

In addition, he seems to have no problem with releasing FIV positive cats back out as ferals.[/QUOTE]

Sadly, this isn’t just him. There is a growing “community cat” movement where shelters improve their stats by not accepting or picking up cats at all.

There’s also this: http://m.local10.com/news/cats-humanely-saved-taking-over-south-florida-streets/26280870

[LauraKY]

[QUOTE=BLBGP;7702421]
Sadly, this isn’t just him. There is a growing “community cat” movement where shelters improve their stats by not accepting or picking up cats at all.

There’s also this: http://m.local10.com/news/cats-humanely-saved-taking-over-south-florida-streets/26280870[/QUOTE]

The shelter in my county refuses to take cats. I do my own TNR for the ones that end up at my place.

[LauraKY]

[QUOTE=IdahoRider;7702420]
Except in some areas certain breeds are over-represented. I know that regionally, Lab rescue can’t keep up with the need and you can walk into any shelter in this area and find purebred Labs available.

Check out any of the large shelters in Southern California and you’ll see purebred after purebred. They are in shelters because breed rescues can only take in so many animals and the supply of purebreds will often far exceed what the breed rescue can absorb.

The less represented a breed is in shelters, the more likely the breed rescue is to take them. I had IG rescue climb down my throat once because a woman had been dealing with them and they couldn’t arrange transport to pick her little Iggy up for another day or two. Owner didn’t want to wait and she surrendered him to my shelter. I had him in a foster home within an hour.

Breed rescue called the next day and demanded that I surrender the dog to their representative, who was now in town and able to transport the dog. They wanted the dog so badly that they forced the surrendering owner to come back in and adopt the dog, only to hand him over to the breed rescue representative out in the parking lot.

In that same time frame, I had Border Collie rescue in tears because they didn’t have the ability to take in any more dogs. And the Lab folks were always so full they were never able to take one of our Labs.
Sheilah[/QUOTE]

I’ve noticed that. We seem to have mostly bully breeds and hounds in our local shelters, but I’ve noticed an huge number of cockers in CA. I work with cocker rescue (as well as collie) and you just don’t see too many cockers or collies that turn up in KY shelters.

I’ve had the same experience with a cocker owner. Last year she called wanting to place her cocker, rescue didn’t move fast enough for her (no open foster) so she gave him away. I pulled him last summer from the shelter when he was found starving, matted, with double ear infections and dry eye…oh and hypothyroid to boot. Poor guy. He cleaned up great and was adopted by three nuns. He’s the prince of the house now. Such a sweetie.

To make it worse, he was microchipped and we tracked down the owner. She promised to pay his vet bill, then disappeared and refused to return any phone calls.

[Coyoteco]

[QUOTE=BLBGP;7702406]
Lots of them do. I won’t throw any of them under your bus, but google big open admission SPCAs and Humane Societies and you’ll find it. They also have foster programs, work with rescues, hold proactive adoption events, have volunteer programs, have low cost s/n programs, community outreach, behavior training, and all the other things the equation calls for, and they still don’t have enough homes for all. The biggest difference is they are open admission shelters who don’t limit the quantity or quality of animals coming through their doors.[/QUOTE]
ong
You are right that I overstated it a bit. It’s not accurate to say that no kill facilities engage in TNR. I say that many here are relying on old information and ideas - and I, myself, was using old information on that one.

Your “behavior training” catches my eye, though. Not all is as represented - and that applies to both kill and no-kill. A kill facility local to me - and it’s a lower kill, kill facility and they do all the “right” things and they do try.

However, they claim to do all manner of rehab of dogs and all of that - but when I enquired about their taking some dogs that needed socialization or be killed, they said they don’t take dogs over two years old and that number is very limited - essentially just the number required to put that on their resume.

But, you are right that some kill organizations may engage in TNR, though most, of course, do not. It’s definitely a step in the right direction.

[Coyoteco]

[QUOTE=LauraKY;7702383]
I’m looking for it, but either I wasn’t clear or you misunderstood. I didn’t mean to imply that he is a proponent of releasing cats that have not been neutered/spayed. However, he is a proponent of releasing, into the wild, cats that end up in a shelter. That’s not TNR. TNR is the trapping, neutering and release of cats back to the location where they were originally trapped.

In addition, he seems to have no problem with releasing FIV positive cats back out as ferals.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I misunderstood your post. I’d have to look into the FIV issue more to really express an opinion on that.

I do have to go through this page (and subsequent pages) of this thread and read it and the links. I’m falling behind on the thread:) and don’t know what time I’m going to have in the short term here.

[Coyoteco]

[QUOTE=BLBGP;7702368]
Other interesting reads on Winograd:

http://www.animals24-7.org/2014/07/31/nathan-winograd-in-perspective/

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/society/animal-rights/no-kill-equation-truth-revealed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8P79Vgvo6b8

The drop from 23 million pets killed in 1970 to 3 million today should be celebrated - it’s not where we should stop, but it shows that it’s not the recent ‘no kill’ movement alone that caused it. A lot of good work was done by the very leaders the Winograds of the world disparage.

Also, I don’t see how you can say “we should work together” then celebrate incredibly divisive language and highly inflammatory leadership that prohibits working together. And be honest that “no kill” suddenly now means 90%, not 100%.

Communities need to work together, not against each other.[/QUOTE]

Well, to me there are a lot of facilities who claim to be no kill when they are not and there always have been.

I don’t agree that 90 percent is no-kill but it’s progress. there has always been the “behavior” issues and the “health” issues that were used as excuses in that those animals “needed killin” and that was bogus.

We should work together, but there was no way in the world to do that while the kill people had the upper hand. Most of the kill facilities are either government owned, government contractors or very powerful. They demonized every no kill with false and disparaging information. Much of that misinformation appears in this very thread.

I’ve been fighting this battle off and on for decades - and that’s why I do like Winograd and his direct, hard hitting style. Otherwise, no-kills would have been totally wiped out.

So, yes everyone should work together, but they should work together to promote “no kill” as Winograd pushes, rather than “working together” to eliminated no kill shelters as was happening before people like Winograd. As I said, I haven’t read a lot of his material, but everything I hear leads me to believe that he has seen the really bad side of the attacks on the no-kill people.

And so, indulge me if you want, or don’t if you don’t want, but when I read some of the things he says, I am very excited to see the push back against the crushing of the no-kill movement - and I love it when “direct” language can work if it is appropriate.

[LauraKY]

Regarding the push against no kill…I believe that was and is more of push against hoarders masquerading as no kill, than an actual push against no kill…for example, Caboodle Ranch and Olympic Animal Sanctuary. They were hoarders, nothing more.

Why would any animal welfare organization want to close down no kill shelters? That makes no sense. All the biggies work with many animal rescue organizations to place animals in seizure situations, almost all are no kill type rescue orgs.

[Angela_Freda]

[QUOTE=Coyoteco;7703412]
ong
You are right that I overstated it a bit. It’s not accurate to say that no kill facilities engage in TNR. I say that many here are relying on old information and ideas - and I, myself, was using old information on that one.

Your “behavior training” catches my eye, though. Not all is as represented - and that applies to both kill and no-kill. A kill facility local to me - and it’s a lower kill, kill facility and they do all the “right” things and they do try.

However, they claim to do all manner of rehab of dogs and all of that - but when I enquired about their taking some dogs that needed socialization or be killed, they said they don’t take dogs over two years old and that number is very limited - essentially just the number required to put that on their resume.

But, you are right that some kill organizations may engage in TNR, though most, of course, do not. It’s definitely a step in the right direction.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Coyoteco;7702363]

And since I’m responding to this post, I’ll just say that kill facilities do not Trap Neuter and RELEASE. Not any kill facilities that I’m aware of anyway.[/QUOTE]

I think many of us have been trying to make this point that you refused to see… there are no all/none in this situation and those who insist that all/none does exist are facilitating the war between the two [no-kill/high-kill] which does nothing to help anyone, or more importantly any animals.

[LauraKY]

[QUOTE=Angela Freda;7704011]
I think many of us have been trying to make this point that you refused to see… there are no all/none in this situation and those who insist that all/none does exist are facilitating the war between the two [no-kill/high-kill] which does nothing to help anyone, or more importantly any animals.[/QUOTE]

Until there are fewer cats and dogs than people want as pets, we’re going to have a problem. There has to be a place for both types…the shelters that do euth for space and those that don’t.

We’re still going to have a problem with those that dump their old, sick or used up dogs in shelters.

[Angela_Freda]

[QUOTE=LauraKY;7704172]
Until there are fewer cats and dogs than people want as pets, we’re going to have a problem. There has to be a place for both types…the shelters that do euth for space and those that don’t.

We’re still going to have a problem with those that dump their old, sick or used up dogs in shelters.[/QUOTE]

Exactly

I was all over helping that woman in NY who had a grey horse she ‘rescued from slaughter’ who was now blind and she needed to find a place for… until I realized she didn’t want advice on other boarding options, she wanted someone ELSE to take responsibility for the the now blind horse she ‘saved from slaughter’ .
headdesk

[Angela_Freda]

[QUOTE=LauraKY;7704172]
Until there are fewer cats and dogs than people want as pets, we’re going to have a problem. There has to be a place for both types…the shelters that do euth for space and those that don’t.

We’re still going to have a problem with those that dump their old, sick or used up dogs in shelters.[/QUOTE]

Exactly

[Coyoteco]

[QUOTE=LauraKY;7704172]
Until there are fewer cats and dogs than people want as pets, we’re going to have a problem. There has to be a place for both types…the shelters that do euth for space and those that don’t.

We’re still going to have a problem with those that dump their old, sick or used up dogs in shelters.[/QUOTE]

Actually, I know many people who want a dog or cat or even a couple more pets but are prohibited from having them because of unreasonable zoning regulations. That is a major problem for animals that need homes. I know I’ve raised this before, but simple minor increases in the number of animals allowed would translate to an enormous number of potential new homes.

[Coyoteco]

[QUOTE=Angela Freda;7704011]
I think many of us have been trying to make this point that you refused to see… there are no all/none in this situation and those who insist that all/none does exist are facilitating the war between the two [no-kill/high-kill] which does nothing to help anyone, or more importantly any animals.[/QUOTE]

Now, now, play nice.

I don’t refuse to see anything and I listen to everything regardless of its ultimate lack of merit. I had already said on the thread that I agreed that there were some kill facilities that were now doing TNR - and pages later you quote the thread as if I had not and you selectively quote. TNR, of course is new to the kill facilities and was started by no-kill people, but still the limited number of kill facilities that do TNR are to be highly commended.

I agree that getting along for the animals is a great thing to do. I don’t agree that the no-kills should have sat back and allowed the kind of false and negative misrepresentations that were taking place, and that have a lasting, negative impact on them.

[LauraKY]

[QUOTE=Coyoteco;7704755]
Actually, I know many people who want a dog or cat or even a couple more pets but are prohibited from having them because of unreasonable zoning regulations. That is a major problem for animals that need homes. I know I’ve raised this before, but simple minor increases in the number of animals allowed would translate to an enormous number of potential new homes.[/QUOTE]

I don’t agree. There are reasons zoning regulations are in place.

[LauraKY]

[QUOTE=Coyoteco;7704771]

I agree that getting along for the animals is a great thing to do. I don’t agree that the no-kills should have sat back and allowed the kind of false and negative misrepresentations that were taking place, and that have a lasting, negative impact on them.[/QUOTE]

Do you have examples of the false and negative misrepresentations?