high phosphorus, low NSC feeds?

[Xanthoria]

Our barn does not allow hay to be kept by boarders (…) so to put on weight I am adding lots of alfalfa and beet shreds to my horse’s diet (as well as oil, flax and so on), but this put the Ca:Ph ratio out of whack.

I had some wheat bran lying about and added 1#/day which balanced things nicely, but it has an NSC of about 31% which is doom for the PSSM horse (though I realize that’s just 1 pound out of his 30#/day diet.)

To balance things better, what are some high phosphorus, low NSC feeds? The stabilized rice brans I see are not low NSC and have been cunningly supplemented with Ca to balance them…

Do I need to add phosphorus as a supplement?

[Simkie]

Adult horses can tolerate a LOT of calcium in their diet. I feed straight alfalfa and run things through FeedXL regularly and always get this “this ratio is high, but you don’t have to worry about it” message. Is there a reason why you’re trying to get to the “perfect” Ca/P ratio?

Here’s the exact message I get from FeedXL, if you’re curious:

While Dove’s calcium is higher than it needs to be it is still within the safe range. Dove’s upper safe level for calcium is 236 g or 800% of her RDI. The level of calcium in this diet is not a cause for concern and will not harm her in any way. However, reducing the amount of calcium in Dove’s diet might lower your feed costs

[Texarkana]

Pretty much all common “feed” ingredients short of forage have an inverted Ca:P ratio: flax, soybean meal, pea protein, distillers grains, wheat midds, BOSS… and of course all your hard grains, which aren’t exactly low NSC.

Orchard grass hay tends to be closer to a 1:1 Ca:P ratio… Standlee makes orchard grass pellets if you can find them in your area. You could possibly cut some of the alfalfa or beet pulp with them, too.

High calcium is not ideal, but it’s much less worrisome than inverting the ratio for excess phosphorus. Make sure you do the math yourself (or with the aid of a calculator like FeedXL) to be certain that your calcium is truly in excess!

[Hermein]

I once bought some phosphorus when I was mixing my own.* It was very hard to find and tasted like Tide detergent. I think Uckele will mix minerals to your specs, and there are probably other companies that will do the same.

*An idiotic thing to do.

[IPEsq]

What about a ration balancer made for alfalfa-based diets? Too low in protein compared to a grass RB?

[Simkie]

[QUOTE=IPEsq;8656066]
What about a ration balancer made for alfalfa-based diets? Too low in protein compared to a grass RB?[/QUOTE]

I’d think that the protein in alfalfa would cover that?

I’ve found those ration balancers for alfalfa hay SO hard to find, though. Most companies aren’t making them anymore. Even the vit/mineral mixed for alfalfa are tough to source, but Horse Tech still does one, right? I know Uckele axed theirs…

[IPEsq]

[QUOTE=Simkie;8656078]
I’d think that the protein in alfalfa would cover that?

I’ve found those ration balancers for alfalfa hay SO hard to find, though. Most companies aren’t making them anymore. Even the vit/mineral mixed for alfalfa are tough to source, but Horse Tech still does one, right? I know Uckele axed theirs…[/QUOTE]

It would…although I’m not sure how much is the OP’s “lots” of alfalfa.

Progressive Nutrition makes one that is available out here. I believe HorseTech has one still, at least the Vit/min supp.

[Xanthoria]

@Simkie;8655970

Adult horses can tolerate a LOT of calcium in their diet. I feed straight alfalfa and run things through FeedXL regularly and always get this “this ratio is high, but you don’t have to worry about it” message. Is there a reason why you’re trying to get to the “perfect” Ca/P ratio?

He’s PSSM type 2, so diet plays a big role in his wellness.

I get the same message but also this:

“The calcium to phosphorus ratio is above the acceptable limit of 3 parts calcium to 1 part phosphorus. To lower the the amount of calcium, reduce the amount of Midwest Agri Beet Pulp Shreds or Alfalfa Pellets (Good) being fed in the diet.”

The ratio is 3.4 : 1 and it should be closer to 2 : 1 or 1 : 1.

He’s getting about 300% of his daily calcium, and that interferes with absorption of copper. His Iron to Copper to Zinc to Manganese ratio is high in iron.

Now we know alf is high iron and calcium. But has all this protein I need. so for that reason I am OK with keeping it as long as I can balance the copper and phosphorus.

@IPEsq

What about a ration balancer made for alfalfa-based diets? Too low in protein compared to a grass RB?

He’s on a custom Horsetech balancer, so I could add phosphorus to that if I have to.

@IPEsq

I’m not sure how much is the OP’s “lots” of alfalfa.

Well it’s not a LOT but it’s California rocket fuel alf so he shouldn’t be eating more than 1/3 of his forage as alf, plus there’s the calcium, phosphorus, copper issue. He gets about 5# a day.

[Texarkana]

If it were me in that situation, I’d keep the alfalfa, but drop the beet pulp in favor of some sort of grass or grass mix forage pellet or cube. Those have less calcium and more phosphorus and are more calorie dense per volume. It’s really a win-win if you can get them and he’ll eat them. Or you could swap out both for a grass mix cube/pellet to simplify life.

Although 3.4:1 is not a ratio I’d be overly concerned with so long as he’s getting proper quantities of Ca and P (not over or under his daily requirements). But that’s just me.

[One_Two_Three]

I ran into a similar situation when I removed grain from my horse’s diet and replaced it with Alfalfa pellets. I needed to balance the phos content of his new diet. I couldn’t find any good multivitamins that didn’t have a load more calcium in them. I finally settled on feeding the lowest recommended amount of Buckeye’s Gro N Win Alfa balance. It’s a ration balancer, but it’s low NSC, and made for the alfalfa diet. I feed the minimum amount for my horse’s weight, and it takes care of all the nutrients that I was supplementing before, including the phos levels and lower calcium AND protein content. It’s one of the FEW alfalfa diet based foods available. A thread I started when I was in the process of trying to find a multivitamin fortified for alfalfa diets lead me to believe that the phos supplements are hard to sell–they stink and horses won’t eat them–response I got more than once from supplement companies. The GNW alfa has a bit of an odor to it, but my horse gobbles it right up with his alfalfa pellets anyhow. A good option if you don’t find something else to satisfy your need. I didn’t want to put grain back into my horse’s diet, but at the nominal amount, and all the benefits, I couldn’t resist, and my horse thanks me now!

[Xanthoria]

One Two Three, that looks like a good product but I can’t get Buckeye around here, and I already have a custom supplement so I can add phosphorus to that if needed - I was just wondering if there’s another way to add it that’s maybe high fat, low NSC

Texarkana you may be right that he’s getting plenty of both but the ratio isn’t extremely alarming. Be nice not to see that red alert on FeedXL though! I read that the ratio can be as high as 7:1 (Ca:P) without being detrimental to the horse but I’m looking for a source on that.

I also read here http://www.thehorse.com/articles/27606/calcium-and-phosphorus-ratios-in-equine-diets that:

“Phosphorus-deficient horses often show clinical signs such as muscle weakness and trembling, said Toribio. Additionally, lack of phosphorus can hinder horses’ ability to regulate their energy needs properly, which can lead to high blood levels of glucose and fats.”

Which is scary for a PSSM horse but again - he’s getting plenty of phos.

I did swap beet for timothy pellets in FeedXL and it works! The Ca : Phos ratio is down to 2.8 : 1 and while tim pellets are lower in DE and protein I can feed more. I can also ditch the wheat bran which I dislike.

thanks!

[Texarkana]

There’s a difference between phosphorus deficiency and a ratio that’s high in calcium, though. They are two separate ways of quantifying intake. A horse can still utilize all of the phosphorus intake even if he is receiving excess calcium.

Excess phosphorus is a bigger and more common problem than deficiency in fed horses, IMO, whether the ratio is balanced or not. If the ratio is unbalanced, you risk big head disease, failures in hormonal regulation, neuro problems, and potentially bone loss. If the ratio is balanced, the excess Ca and P form insoluble complexes that are believed to contribute to enteroliths.

Glad the tim pellets will work for you! Easy solution!

[ladipus]

Why not just feed a ration Balencer

[Xanthoria]

Ladipus because most ration balancers aren’t specifically balanced to help correct the calcium phosphorus ratio of the rest of the diet. Take Nutrena Empower Balance - it has way more Ca than Phos and I need the opposite http://m.nutrenaworld.com/products/horses/empower-supplements/Empower-Balance/

Also I am getting a custom blended supp for other reasons (extra vit E, amino acids, Mg, Cu) so adding an extra item I need to balance out is just a pain.